A vote for Bush? Please explain...

I truly want to believe that the people in this country, educational shortcomings notwithstanding, can appreciate the worldwide historical significance of this presidential election. If that significance is truly given its due merit for only a few minutes, I feel like any decent citizen of this country eligible to vote would at least take the time to look past the mud-slinging and the headline stories and sound bites of their malleable local news shows and simply see for themselves what is in the public record. Those who participate in discussions on this website purport to be champions of truth, but even here it seems many are blinded to the truth by cataracts of misplaced trust and the fear of weakness.

It is not wise to suggest that current polls of likely voters are incorrect. Personally, I think they are probably more or less accurate, and the suggestion is that it is very close and Kerry is in grave danger of losing. The liberal talking heads suggest that his numbers are actually very good against a war president, that the polls are not to be trusted, etc., but I tend to think that this is denial taken from the na�ve disbelief that America can�t see this administration�s litany of lies, misdeeds and blatant hypocrisy for what it is. This is a grave mistake; We the People just aren�t getting it.

A partisan discussion of this election is truly tired, but all of a sudden I seek out those of you who plan to vote for Bush or simply can�t decide because I am dumbfounded when I look and see that this is not shaping up to be a landslide victory for John Kerry. I don�t think Kerry has run a strong campaign although I feel he is a very good candidate, but all thoughts of partisanship aside, when simply given what exists in the public record about the last four years of American history, I cannot for the life of me think of one reason for the majority of Americans to vote for George W. Bush.

As an avowed progressive, I enjoy enlightened discussion with anyone of any political or social persuasion, and I respect our freedom to disagree and am willing to change my opinion if I find that my views rely on incomplete or incorrect assumptions. I feel very strongly now, after years of damning information trickling into the public domain followed by absurd and seemingly transparent tactics of distraction, that the record that W is running on is absolutely indefensible.

What are the cornerstones of this president�s record? Every one of them is a tragic failure that has ended or otherwise ruined millions of lives, and yet people continue to listen when the administration claims that things are going just fine, that the war is a "catastrophic success" that the economy has "turned the corner" and that those who question these assertions are "unpatriotic" and "skeptical." The Catch-22 is that most Americans believe many of these things because their president says them. They take it on faith that the President knows what he�s talking about, that he would tell them if they were in trouble. Everyone else is an alarmist. We want to feel safe.

This trust is misplaced. Badly misplaced�

9/11

After the initial shock that we all felt at what was possibly the greatest tragedy in American history, most of us, including myself, felt the anger and the need to dole out retribution. We also felt confidence that retribution would be swift and mighty, because there are few absolutes in this world as absolute as the United States� military power. We found allies in likely and unlikely places; it seemed as though the entire world was on our side. Even the doves knew what had to be done, and once we had fingered our enemy and those who were complicit with them, the war dance began.

I supported the war in Afghanistan, the deposing of the Taliban and the hunt for Osama Bin Laden (remember him?) War is not an easy thing to for me to support under any circumstances, but I could not think of a circumstance under which it would be as justified short of the attack on Pearl Harbor. In short, 9/11 was the greatest test of this president, and what has followed should be enough by itself to merit cynical questions if not outright impeachment.

Five months after 9/11, W said he had �no ambition whatsoever to use 9/11 as a political issue.� (�Big boost for US military spending", BBC News, 01/24/2002.) Have you all forgotten this? Did you see the GOP convention? The fact is, 9/11 is no longer a somber moment in America�s memory. It is now tacitly political, and George Bush is to blame.

This president opposed the creation of an independent commission to investigate 9/11. His administration withheld as much information as possible. Over time, enough truth has emerged to confirm that � simply based upon what is in the public record � Bush�s assertion that �Had we had any inkling, whatsoever, that terrorists were about to attack our country, we would have moved heaven and Earth to protect America� is a lie and also an admittance of failure. Just the following points are well known and well-documented enough to point out that 9/11 was allowed to happen, if not consciously then because of complete ineptitude:

- The Pentagon had run a Mass Casualty Exercise which simulated an airliner crashing into the Pentagon Courtyard in October of 2000.

- The FBI had received the infamous "Phoenix Memo" that warned of an influx of Arabs training to fly airliners, and even arrested Zacarias Moussaoui, who on John Ashcroft�s watch was not quickly or properly investigated.

- George Bush, while on vacation, was given a PDB more than a month before 9/11 that not only suggested �patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks� but also suggested that buildings in New York City were being cased by terrorists. (I think this is more than an �inkling�)

It can be argued that many failings in different branches of our government allowed this to happen, and there is truth to this. But the simple fact is that the information was there, and on this president�s watch, nothing was done about it.

This fails to even scratch the surface of the president�s actions and policies since 9/11. Whatever your opinions of his actions are, you cannot deny that America no longer has the world as our ally. This administration has squandered the goodwill of world opinion with its reckless and disastrous foreign policy and its war of choice in Iraq. There is no other way to see it.

In my mind, however, the most egregious Bush gaffe regarding 9/11 is the most insulting. Those of you who lost friends or family on that day must be able to see that this president has never apologized, has never admitted error, has never taken responsibility for what happened to your loved ones. He has, in fact, used 9/11 as a plank in his platform, as if that horrible day was his greatest triumph. His strategy is to claim that his leadership was strongest at a time where thousands died because of his lack of it. Isn�t this despicable enough not to vote for him? Can people not see this?


Iraq

Before I say anything else, I refuse to acknowledge the argument that the Iraq war was a legitimate part of the response to 9/11. Dick Cheney�s slippery allusions aside, no evidence has been presented to anyone that even loosely suggests that al Qaeda had anything to do with Saddam Hussein. Even Colin Powell said this very recently. If you wish to "deny ignorance" then you must stop believing this ridiculous lie. We did not invade Iraq as a response to 9/11. We did not do it to liberate the Iraqi people. John Kerry and most of Congress voted to authorize the use of force in Iraq because they were presented with evidence that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. That is the long and the short of it.

Read this release from the Council of Foreign Relations dated April of 2003:

www.cfr.org...

Does it say anything about liberating the Iraqi people? What about 9/11? What it does say is that the invasion of Iraq was perfectly justifiable under the U.N. Charter �in anticipation of an armed attack, even if an armed attack has not yet occurred.� While this is a rather loose interpretation, even if you agree with it you have to ask how we anticipated enough of a threat from Saddam that we can justify the loss of more than 1,000 soldiers (so far) and $200 billion (so far) based upon intelligence that even Colin Powell did not believe.

Saddam was contained, the UN inspectors were in the country, he had no air force, no navy, and sanctions imposed against the citizens of his country. He had never attacked us and was not planning an attack and, while he was a brutal dictator and a grave threat to his own citizens, he had no weapons of mass destruction.

So if you are voting for Bush, tell me what you will say to the families of the soldiers who will die over the next four years who ask why their children are dead? What will you say to the parents who watch their teenagers drafted and shipped off to Iraq (and possibly Syria and Iran) once Bush is elected for four more years and no longer has to worry about political backlash? What will you tell your son or daughter about the horrors of war before they enter basic training next summer?

The only answer that makes sense is �I don�t know.� Because you don�t. If you do, I encourage you to tell me why and provide some proof. The only place this war was ever justified was within Bush�s rhetoric and his troubled mind.

Further, if you believe that Bush has the best interests of the troops and veterans in mind, then you haven�t been paying attention. If you can justify this war to yourself, fine. Can you justify a massive wartime tax cut that has literally taken military capability out of the hands of our troops, making them more vulnerable to injury and death? Go beyond the Hummers without armor, or the fact that top military analysts called for many more troops for the invasion, and think about the cuts in housing, medical assistance and psychological treatment that veterans are asked to endure back home.

Try not to forget that, while Saddam is behind bars, Iraq is a mess. Even the staunchest Bu#es I know will admit this. Why, then, are they so willing to allow that the Iraq mess is not Bush�s fault? There were thousands of pages written and hundreds of independent sources that foretold exactly what is happening right now. None of these warnings, many from within the Republican Party, were heeded, and Bush and Rumsfeld went ahead with their ill-advised war plan, and thousands have died needlessly as a result. I cannot see how this can possibly be justified in anyone�s mind. It did not have to happen this way!

Finally, the Iraq war�s most sobering effect has not yet been felt. The mainstream news media has failed to point out on a consistent basis that even though Osama Bin Laden is still at large and probably alive, even though the Taliban is regrouping and that U.S. forces no longer control a huge part of Afghanistan, and even though Homeland Security and first responders in this country are underfunded and a complete farce, the Bush administration insists on huge tax cuts for the wealthy and continues to divert military and economic resources to the $200 billion sinkhole of Iraq, a country that never attacked us. Think of the type of security that $200 billion would provide on our own shores, where we still have security problems with our own WMDs at Los Alamos or at nuclear plants all over the country. Think of how close we were to catching Osama at Tora Bora, and how the small number of American troops in Afghanistan allowed him to slip through our fingers. Think of all the things that would be different had we not gone into Iraq and simply let the inspectors do their job. They would probably still be there today, and our fallen soldiers would be home with their families. Wasn�t this a horrible and tragic mistake?


The Economy

Do you believe the tax cuts are working? All indications are that they continue to do what they were meant to do: make the rich richer and keep the poor where they belong. If you are middle class, as I am, maybe you can�t see the worst effects of the last four years economically. I personally am college-educated with two degrees and was forced to take a job at just above minimum wage for 6 months just to get medical benefits. Two of my co-workers had master�s degrees. Our manager had a PhD.

But I was lucky. I found a job. In manufacturing in say, Ohio, the outlook has been bleak since Bush took office and isn�t getting much better. This term will end with the loss of just under a million jobs over the past 4 years IF you count on the official numbers, which don�t take into account the folks who just stopped looking for jobs, went back to school, or lost their unemployment benefits (at the hands of the Republican congress). The truth is, nobody can truly say how many folks are without a job, but even the official numbers don�t look good. Still, I�m not an economist, so I just choose to look around for evidence that we�ve �turned the corner� in everyday America.

The economy isn�t simply jobs creation, it�s this nation�s ability to pay for social services, police and fire protection, education and the like. The monstrous deficit we find ourselves in due to war and tax cuts makes it impossible not to cut these services and difficult to improve education and health care in this country. One of the most telling signs that our economy is in terrible shape is the fact that 45 million Americans don�t have health care and those who live below the poverty line ($18,810 a year for a family of four, yikes) keep rising in number. In my state, California, I�ve watched funding cut for school music and sports programs where public education is already in dire straits. When I broke my ankle last year I had to wait 6 hours to see an emergency room doctor at a public hospital. Is this an economic turnaround? Haven�t we waited long enough? It continues to get worse�

Was Dick Cheney serious about that Ebay thing last week? It seems almost intentionally cruel to suggest that folks who sell things on Ebay are part of his grand economic plan. I sold a bunch of stuff on Ebay last year to help pay my medical expenses, so obviously I can�t agree. Comments like that one truly make me shake my head and wish to ask those who will vote for Bush:
"Are you listening to this?"

The economy is the third major issue that the Bush Administration is campaigning on. In the face of scads of statistics and hard evidence to the contrary, they stand in front of the world and simply say "Things are getting better." It is almost folly to argue with an assertion like that, I guess. He�s the president, so he must know what he�s talking about. You should ask yourself, however, how much longer you�ll wait until you have to admit that this is all so very wrong.


OK, so I�m not voting for him. To those of you who are, I sincerely wish to know why. I�m not looking for angry Neo-Cons to try and tell me that I�m lying or a propagandist because I�m simply not. I just wish to know if the facts at hand are something you outright don�t believe or if you see them in a different light. I truly respect many conservative views and I feel that W�s policies have nothing to do with them. If you are voting for Bush for religious reasons, then please enlighten me to his supposed piety. If you are a veteran or soldier I need to see evidence that he hasn�t mismanaged and totally screwed our military. If you are undecided then tell me what you think 4 years of a lame-duck Bush presidency will do to your civil liberties, your children�s hope for an education and health care, your retirement plans and the innocent folks you will never meet that will die in unnecessary wars. I am thankful to have found this forum for discussion and I hope to receive some interesting, well-thought out replies.

I�m a progressive. I believe that the government�s function is to do for the people what they cannot do for themselves. It should never be the other way around. I love this country, but since Bush has become president I have become more disappointed in our government�s actions and attitudes, our citizen�s willingness to subvert our own constitution out of fear, and the laziness of all of us when it comes to seeking out the truth beyond what we wish to see. This election is not about conspiracies or war records or corporate misdeeds, it is simply the only chance we have to affect what will happen to the world over the next four years. To paraphrase Dick Cheney, I believe that if we make the wrong decision, some very bad things will happen. Just keep in mind that you can no longer blame the media or the political parties or the propagandists or even the politicians for what happens come November 2nd. The decisions of whoever wins and their consequences will be your responsibility. Yours and mine.

Excellent. Very well put together. Absolutely FANTASTC!



I really...have no words that can express what I"m thinking right now.

Uh... you certainly make an interesting well reasoned point. However I believe the majority of Bush supporters are incapable of critical analysis.

It is quite possible this new crop of Republicans are voting for GWB cause "Lil Baby Jesus" told em to (or their Pastors). Why else would they support this war dodging alcoholic?

Spend some time with Noam Chomsky for details of the recent rise to power by GWB.

God help us all. Fear has led a near majority of Americans to trust the path of the "First Retarded President".

I hope you're wrong. I really want to hear back from intelligent people that support this president. If there are none out there then I guess I've just been stroking myself for the last 4 hours. Pity...

I'm voting for Bush and I will put my credentials, education, and intellect up against anyone's.

Look at who's running against him. Benedict Arnold reincarnate.

Your conspiracy theory might appeal to certain among us, but among the universe of American voters, it just won't fly.

For instance, look at the photos of the Pentagon plane crash scenario. Do you see any simiarities to the terroist event?

Photos.

Do you think that Mr. Hanoi John Kerry could have sifted through the tons of intel and figured out what was to happen on 9/11? If he had figured it out, what do you think he might have done about it, not knowing just how it might unfold. Could he have done it in less than one month? Don't you think that someone was acting on the information?

If he had tried to do something about it, wouldn't people like you be screaming bloody murder about the loss of your civil rights.

When was the last time most of the world was our allies. With allies like the French and the Germans, who needs allies?

Don't whine to me about the economy. Keep working and spend your money wisely. If you want more money, look for better work. You'll do more for the economy in that one act than any one vote will do.

Even if I thought Bush was the worst President in all of history, I wouldn't vote for that turncoat scumbag who's running against him.

Bush isn't perfect, but he's got a backbone. Where's Kerry's.

I appreciate the work you put into your post, but it does not convince me and my critical thinking skills.

As for Noam Chomsky:

Oh, yeah. I almost forgot. What do you think Al Gore would have done if he was in office on 9/11.

One more thing, don't expect very many responses to your call to defend a vote for Bush on this website.


[edit on 04/9/16 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I'm voting for Bush and I will put my credentials, education, and intellect up against anyone's.

Good luck, buddy. Lets see what you got...

Look at who's running against him. Benedict Arnold reincarnate.

Touche. As a vietnam veteran who wasn't able to get out of going because of his rich father (I'm assuming) I'd kind of expect you to dispense with the mudlslinging out of respect for Kerry, a man who actually defended his country. There are many like you and rather than stupid witless comments like this I'd love to hear an intelligent defense of Bush's war record. Or none at all, since that isn't what this post is about.

Your conspiracy theory might appeal to certain among us, but among the universe of American voters, it just won't fly.

What conspiracy theory? Did you read the post? I haven't posited any conspiracy at all and that is the point. Without any conspiracy, simply based on the public record, my contention is that you just can't vote for him. Are you going to reply to that?

For instance, look at the photos of the Pentagon plane crash scenario. Do you see any simiarities to the terroist event?

Photos.

What the hell are you talking about? My point was that the Administration contended that "Nobody could have imagined" what happened before September 11th. That's obviously wrong, because the PENTAGON did, and in addition, you should know that there was a hijacking drill planned for september 11th not 40 minutes after the Pentagon was hit. You've missed this point entirely, as well.

Do you think that Mr. Hanoi John Kerry could have sifted through the tons of intel and figured out what was to happen on 9/11? If he had figured it out, what do you think he might have done about it, not knowing just how it might unfold. Could he have done it in less than one month? Don't you think that someone was acting on the information?

I didn't say that, either. I won't argue that anyone, Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Kennedy, etc, would have figured it out necessarily. We'll never know. My point (which you missed again) was that what was done in the aftermath was not something to be proud of. I'll bet Hanoi Kerry would know what it meant to be "under attack" and wouldn't have sat on his ass in a classroom for 7 minutes not doing anything when he found out. You really think that was strong leadership?

If he had tried to do something about it, wouldn't people like you be screaming bloody murder about the loss of your civil rights.

I only started screaming bloody murder when the Bush administration started locking up people in military brigs for two years without charges or lawyers. Habeas Corpus (look it up) has been around for thousands of years, it's the oldest legal concept in history, but that doesn't matter with this president.

When was the last time most of the world was our allies.

After 9/11. Like I said. We had foreign dignitaries from 200 countries visiting for months to show support.

With allies like the French and the Germans, who needs allies?

Bush One needed them to invade Iraq, so him. Also, YOU need them to help clean up the mess that your boy Bush made. Haven't you heard them groveling to the U.N.? Inform yourself, man.

Don't whine to me about the economy. Keep working and spend your money wisely. If you want more money, look for better work. You'll do more for the economy in that one act than any one vote will do.

I won't whine to you. It obviously has no effect.

Even if I thought Bush was the worst President in all of history, I wouldn't vote for that turncoat scumbag who's running against him.

I don't doubt it. I'd love to hear about your service in Vietnam, about how wonderful it all was and how good for America it was that we got our a$$es kicked right back to the good Ol' U S of A. I guess since you never questioned authority you probably think you're more of a hero than John Kerry. If that's true than you've truly made me fear the future of this country. I know that if a gun was running for president you'd probably vote for it.

Bush isn't perfect, but he's got a backbone. Where's Kerry's.

That is such a fantastic assertion backed up by so much evidence that you've presented in such a concise manner. Perhaps you can address where the anatomy of each candidate was when you were risking your own life in Vietnam. I don't get how you can defend the guy in light of all that has come to the surface this week.

I appreciate the work you put into your post, but it does not convince me and my critical thinking skills.

That doesn't surprise me.

As for Noam Chomsky:

I love Noam Chomsky, man. Bet you've never read a word of him.

Oh, yeah. I almost forgot. What do you think Al Gore would have done if he was in office on 9/11.

I'll answer this I guess just to answer. He would have invaded Afghanistan and used the full power of the military to catch Osama Bin Laden. I think Osama would be preparing the defense for his trial in New York City right about now, and you'd be loving every minute of it. Saddam would still be in power with the Allies watching over him closely, and the inspectors would still be there, and thousands of Americans that are now dead or wounded for life would be eating dinner and watching TV.

I really want to thank you (quite sincerely) for your service during Vietnam. The problem I have is that you haven't really responded to any of my points. I don't know if you're doing it on purpose or if you really just didn't read what I wrote. If your only reason for voting Bush is because you hate Kerry, please tell me why on earth Bush's military record and obvious draft dodging doesn't bother you. Even if you believe the Swift Boat Veterans for truth, which you shouldn't if you're not ignorant, at least Kerry was there. He VOLUNTEERED. What do you really think Bush was doing when Kerry (and you) were at war?

I really would like your answer. Honestly. Thanks.

I can't tell you that your posting was very well thought out and presented. It was very good job, so to speak.

However, it will not discourage me of my support for Bush. He may not be the most brilliant and highly educated president we've ever had, but his determination to do what he thinks is right for this country is what I find the most impressive about President Bush and his ability to remain level-headed under pressure and opposition.

Putting the war issue aside, his agenda of bannig gay marriages is something that needs to pushed harder in Congress, and I don't think there is another candidate that will follow through with what he wants accomplished. Reason being, our children does not need to grow up in a society that allows such immoral behaviour in private or in public. Their push to be "equal" in status is a push to have more rights than what is granted to the working, heterosexual, family man and woman. Their push to be leaders in the Boy Scouts, where they are not welcome, confounds me. Why would anyone force themselves upon anyone else if they're not welcome? I applaud the high courts decision for letting the Boys Scouts continue with their policy to exclude homosexuals from their organization.

His push to outlaw abortion is another reason that I think he would be a better leader than the other choice that we're given. The Women's Rights Group and Family Planning has repeatedly said that the women's body is her body and to make a decision to get an abortion is her decision alone. To me, after the procedure, she should be labeled a murderer. "When does life begin?" one may ask. At conception, the paternal and maternal nuclei of the parents reproductive cells merge, as everyone knows. Division occurs shortly there after. That is when life actually begins and not a moment after.

Arguments with me on these two topics will be fruitless, for I am firm in my belief and there is nothing opponents can says that will make me waiver.

If the Bush opponents say that I am wrong in casting my vote for Bush, then so be it, I'll just have to be wrong. On top of everything that I've just said, his commitment to National Security is why I'd vote for the man, even if it was the only thing on his agenda.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Don't whine to me about the economy. Keep working and spend your money wisely. If you want more money, look for better work.

Yeah, keep believing that. NAFTA is good for America.

I can't speak for the rest of the nation, but in Marinette County (NE Wisconsin), within the past year, we have had the majority of our factories close down and shipped to Mexico. A few other factories upright closed because of foriegn trade (which is fine, in this instance... adapt or get washed away).

These aren't your everyday logging comanies, either. One built infant and toddler car seats and baby related house hold products. Another was one of the major producers of grocery related plastics. And another built Craftsmen tools and wet vacs. This is just three... there are numerous others.

When my factory shut down, I was out of work for a year. A YEAR. I am not an idiot, or an average machine operator. I was a CNC operator, certified in CAD programming. On top of that, I had 5 years working experience in business administration. I also have college credits in accounting and psychology. And it took me a year to find a job, when I was mailing 20+ resumes a week in a 100 mile radius, and doing face-to-face job applications at least 10 times a week, PLUS signed up in three different job placement programs.

A YEAR. My unemployment ran out before the end of that year, and I couldn't file an extension, because Congress was closed and wouldn't meet again until mid January. My wife, two children, and myself, had to survive on her income from working part time at Subway and my VA compensation. Ironicly, we made too much money to get food stamps, heating assistance, or rental assistance (we earned about $700 a month at that time).

Bush keeps spewing that same line of crap everytime he's on TV... the economies growing stronger, there are jobs out there if Americans want them.

Where? Not here in Wisconsin.

That, and last year he wanted to make all the illegal immigrants LEGAL?!

AND THAT'S JUST ON THAT ONE COMMENT, THAT... ECONOMY, LOOK FOR BETTER WORK!

*And let it be said, I'm not voting for Kerry, either... *

Originally posted by Intelearthling
Putting the war issue aside, his agenda of bannig gay marriages is something that needs to pushed harder in Congress, and I don't think there is another candidate that will follow through with what he wants accomplished.

Parden me for sounding a bit irritated...

GODS!

Let's have the gays sit at the back of the bus! Yeah! And they'll have there own seating area in resturants! Their own water fountians!

Pushing equality? Damn right! Are they not people? Do they not love as other people do? If a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, love each other as man and wife, THEN THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE MAN AND WIFE! Do they treat children differently? Do they force themselves onto every body they see? NO. AT LEAST, NOT AS MUCH AS YOUR CATHOLIC PRIESTS!

Now, to the next poster...

Originally posted by soothsayer

*And let it be said, I'm not voting for Kerry, either... *

For God's sake man, why not? I really want to know...

Now, I want you to know I respect you... I just noticed your signature, and if that be true, then my hat's off to you. My father was a Nam vet as well, and having spent the majority of my childhood in the VA Hospital to visit him, I have grown... mindful, of what they went through.

Which brings me to this point...

Kerry was in Nam. Where was Bush? Granted, this isn't a major issue, especially knowing the morality at the time... But, my point being, Bush has always touted his military career in the Air Guard, and now his missing records/forged records...

Viet Nam wasn't something to be made light of. If he wasn't there, then fine, say he wasn't there. I could respect that, and understand that.

How do you feel, knowing what you went through, only to have a President claim the same thing you did?

He's hiding something. The eyes Do hold and tell everything about somebody, and for some reason, his eyes dart about as if he were... pretending to be something he's not.

And besides, Republican and Democrat, they're both the same.



I had just recieved a U2U from Loki asking me about why and who... I told him I was leaning towards Nader, but since he's out, I'm going for that Libertarian guy, B something (what a way to stay ahead on politics, not knowing the guy's name!). Nobody's perfect, nor can any single person meet the demands of everybody, but he has alot of things I want (like keeping American money and jobs in America). Just check out my site, and you'll see what I mean.

Originally posted by soothsayer
He's hiding something. The eyes Do hold and tell everything about somebody, and for some reason, his eyes dart about as if he were... pretending to be something he's not.

And besides, Republican and Democrat, they're both the same.

I had just recieved a U2U from Loki asking me about why and who... I told him I was leaning towards Nader, but since he's out, I'm going for that Libertarian guy, B something (what a way to stay ahead on politics, not knowing the guy's name!). Nobody's perfect, nor can any single person meet the demands of everybody, but he has alot of things I want (like keeping American money and jobs in America). Just check out my site, and you'll see what I mean.

I really like what you have to say, but it certainly is strange to hear you write so fluently about issues in this election then say you won't vote for Kerry because of something in his eyes. At least you aren't voting for Georgie.

I like politics, and will debate when I can, if I can, especially if I have a strong enough emotional... desire? But with his eyes...

It is more than that. Facial expressions, voice, tone, body language. Everything that you can use to judge somebody. To me, it all points negatively.

I just used eyes because it's the more predominate thing to notice (especially on TV interviews). That, and my spirituality.

Bush is the man to fight terrorists, granted he has not been doing a good job so far I mean he was the president when 911 happened and ignoring memos and letting it happen and granted he led us into a war to find WMD against a known terrorist Saddam who was in with Bin laden, oh yeah 911 commission says there is not one iota of truth to that but I know and you know that Bush lied to us for our own good and he has not caught Bin laden that 7 ft.6 inch guy dragging around a dialysis machine, heck we all know that not an easy guy to spot in a crowd. He is going to do something soon here on the homeland to fight terrorists besides appointing a homeland security guy and give us all those color terrorist alerts, why someday soon he is going to work on ..........something to stop them. And lookie here he done went and made sure we all can have machine guns, man I feel so much safer, the kid next door just got one, well his Dad did but he is learning how to use it. And then there is the dificit, Bush is going to work on that soon I know it and you know it, it takes time to figure out how to convince the middle class that they actually have a tax cut when their children no longer qualify for any grants for college, the rich have an even bigger cut, it takes time to work on this kind of thing. I mean really the president deserves a break, my God there is even a rumor going around he is on antidepressants, he needs all our help and support.

Originally posted by soothsayer

Originally posted by Intelearthling
Putting the war issue aside, his agenda of bannig gay marriages is something that needs to pushed harder in Congress, and I don't think there is another candidate that will follow through with what he wants accomplished.

Parden me for sounding a bit irritated...

GODS!

Let's have the gays sit at the back of the bus! Yeah! And they'll have there own seating area in resturants! Their own water fountians!

Pushing equality? Damn right! Are they not people? Do they not love as other people do? If a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, love each other as man and wife, THEN THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE MAN AND WIFE! Do they treat children differently? Do they force themselves onto every body they see? NO. AT LEAST, NOT AS MUCH AS YOUR CATHOLIC PRIESTS!

Now, to the next poster...

Well, I'm not Catholic, and they do force their beliefs on others.

A man and a man or a woman and a woman cannot in any way, shape or form, be considered a man and wife!

That's totally absurd!

goose...

I was going to quote some of your passge, but realized it was sarcasm, so here it goes!

The war on Terror. Oh yes, Saddam was a major threat to our American way of life, at least when it comes to oil production. Lemme see... the Bush family own how many stock interests in oil companies? Cheney was the head of which one? The oil fields were the first siezed, and the first repaired... hmm... Didn't we put Saddam in power in the first place?

And what about Bin Laden? Why isn't the fact that we are getting nowhere in Afganistan hitting the televised news reports? Or how many people realize that we are also fighting terrorists in the Phillipines? It was easier for Bush to invade a country then it was to find one man.

*And those earlier comments, what would Kerry have done, what would Gore have done, if they were in office on 9/11? Jesus Christ, what do you think? "Umm, we just had 4 planes hijacked and crashed into things, but, like, we'll just let bygones be bygones." ?!*

Nobody can fix the National Deficit. You can slow it down, maybe stop it for a small amount of time, and yes, it may even be reduced, but it'll keep growing larger... Everytime money is printed, the debt grows...

Middle Class? There's a middle class? Where? This isn't nessessarily Bush's fault, it's been happening for a while... but when you have a corporate person in office making deals and bargins for corporations, sometimes you have to wonder what's really going on.

Grady, once again, I do respect your opinion, but I would like to comment upon your post, and I look forward to your reply. It's nice to have someone smart to debate with who knows the difference between debate and attacking someone for disagreeing.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Look at who's running against him. Benedict Arnold reincarnate.

What makes you say this? Is it because of the speech he gave on behalf of the Vietnam Vets after he returned home? I wasn't alive then, in fact, I was born in 1980, but that ear of history is something I genuinely enjoy exploring. I can never assume to know what living through combat is like, and I won't try to. I know that this war created incredibly strong emotions in people on both sides. Could you extrapolate upon this a little more?

Do you think that Mr. Hanoi John Kerry could have sifted through the tons of intel and figured out what was to happen on 9/11? If he had figured it out, what do you think he might have done about it, not knowing just how it might unfold. Could he have done it in less than one month? Don't you think that someone was acting on the information?

Don't forget that the vast amount of information that was available came from the Clinton Administration, and "Bin Laden Lane" in the CIA. The documents Condi rice has commented upon, the PDBs, were the source of much of the information that was used to finger those responsible. Those who did the actual research were people like Richard Clark and George Tenet, not people who were added when Bush came into power. It was their hard work that so quickly came up with this information, and it was them who were making up the PDBs before 9/11 that Bush didn't read.

When was the last time most of the world was our allies. With allies like the French and the Germans, who needs allies?

Do you know why the French and Germans decided not to come into Iraq with us?

France and Germany, along with the United States, were participating in the "Oil For Food" program, which I'm sure you remember hearing about. In this program, Iraq could get the food, clothes, medicine, and other essential items it was prevented from getting by the sanctions, and in return, U.N. countries were getting oil. When the U.S. invaded Iraq and took over, the Oil For Food program was cancelled, and the U.S. announced that we weren't going to allow European nations to bid on the oil contracts, instead turning them over to Haliburton.

Understandably, France and Germany were not happy about this. Having to buy the oil from Iraq, through Haliburton, was going to cost them millions upon millions of dollars. They told the U.S. if they couldn't have the oil they were getting, and the chance to sell some of it and make money like the U.S. was going to, then they weren't going to participate in the invasion.

The Republican attack dogs jumped on France and Germany's backs. Bill O'Reilly even started a French boycott (though, strangely, not a German one), and to date, according to Bill O'Reilly, his boycott has cost the French literally billions of dollars. He was rather angry when it turned out the journal he cited for his examples, The National French Review, turned out not to exist.

Don't whine to me about the economy. Keep working and spend your money wisely. If you want more money, look for better work. You'll do more for the economy in that one act than any one vote will do.

Locally, here in South Carolina, there is a company called National Textiles. They make fabric for Hanes Clothing, mainly for their underwear line. The operation is moving to Mexico next year, and nearly 2000 people who live in my county will be out of a job. Our total population here is around 5000, so you can imagine what will happen to our economy. My father is Director of the local United Way, and was able to raise almost 2 million dollars last year. However, after the factory closes, the United Way will probably have to close down, and may cause the local YMCA, local Boy Scout troop, and the local Salvation Army to also close down, meaning the loss of more jobs, and the loss of three Amerian Institutions of giving and charity to be removed from a community who will become poorer. Apparently, the people who own National Textiles will make hundreds of millions of dollars in the move. I bet they're voting for Bush, too.

Bush isn't perfect, but he's got a backbone. Where's Kerry's.

I see his backbone as a man who was brae enough to go into war and get shot at. I see his backbone as a man who led a group of Senators in the 1980's to uncover a plot involving the BCCI, Iran, U.S. guns, and drug runners in South America. I see his backbone as a man who was willing to stand up for his fellow soldiers who were coming home maimed, psychologically unstable, and unwelcome. Would George Bush have done the same?

Oh, yeah. I almost forgot. What do you think Al Gore would have done if he was in office on 9/11.

I don't know what he would have done. But I think that a few days after 9/11, when Iran was hit by that devastating earthquake, and the U.S. absolutely ignored, I know that Al Gore would have sent help, troops, aid to that country. If America had extended a helping hand, even after being so terribly wounded, we would have shown what true strength, and what true moral standing is. Strength is never about how you treat those who have hurt you. It is about how you treat those who you have the power to help.

I hope this helps you better understand why my vote will be a proud vote for John Kerry.




[edit on 16-9-2004 by RockerDom]

I don't know why, but I expected someone from the right to try and truly reply to my points. Where did I mention Gay Marriage or Abortion in my post? Are those issues even important compared to national security?

I'm not a military man so maybe one of you jarheads can help me out. All I hear from the pollsters and from folks like you is that Bush is better on national security. How in the hell can anyone justify that statement? Saying it doesn't make it so, and meanwhile (like I mentioned in my post) the mishandling of this war has taken resources away from Homeland Defense, from National Guard troops that are supposed to be protecting our borders to first responders.

It is not an opinion of mine...The fact is that we are at great risk right now and it's only going to get worse. That is common sense. Kerry isn't going to be weak on terrorism, but regardless I can't see how he could do any worse than this president--attacks on our forces in Iraq are up around 50 a DAY. Mission accomplished, indeed.

Will someone tell me how the current state of affairs in Iraq and Afghanistan which we never hear about anymore are improving our national security? Sheesh.

Originally posted by oppodeldoc
I don't know why, but I expected someone from the right to try and truly reply to my points. Where did I mention Gay Marriage or Abortion in my post? Are those issues even important compared to national security?

I'm not a military man so maybe one of you jarheads can help me out. All I hear from the pollsters and from folks like you is that Bush is better on national security. How in the hell can anyone justify that statement? Saying it doesn't make it so, and meanwhile (like I mentioned in my post) the mishandling of this war has taken resources away from Homeland Defense, from National Guard troops that are supposed to be protecting our borders to first responders.

It is not an opinion of mine...The fact is that we are at great risk right now and it's only going to get worse. That is common sense. Kerry isn't going to be weak on terrorism, but regardless I can't see how he could do any worse than this president--attacks on our forces in Iraq are up around 50 a DAY. Mission accomplished, indeed.

Will someone tell me how the current state of affairs in Iraq and Afghanistan which we never hear about anymore are improving our national security? Sheesh.

The question was, "Why would you vote for Bush? Explain why?"

Am I missing something? Your viewpoints contradict my viewpoints. I just answered your question as to why I'd vote for Bush, and I gave it to you.
The War and National Security aside.

As for Iraq and Afghanistan? Better there than here. Or maybe we can give up our firearms and let the terrorists get a foot in on our soil and we'll fight them with sticks and stones. Good strategy! A stategy that a liberal government would have us believe that would work. Liberals fear the people and Conservatives are the people IMO.

[edit on 16/9/04 by Intelearthling]