The Veil of Ignorance, page 1

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Topic started on 27-1-2012 @ 01:52 PM by Droogie

The ’veil of ignorance’ is a thought experiment based on a hypothetical situation in which parties are supposed to select fundamental principles that will determine the basic structure of society. This without knowing anything about which social standing, abilities or intelligence you may have when the veil is lifted. Hence, these principles are to be made from behind a veil of ignorance, because this knowledge is not yet known to you. (ref. John Rawls) The main goal of the thought experiment is to determine the morality of a specific issue or issues.

Imagine yourself in a position where you know nothing about which social standing, abilities or intelligence you have. This restricts you from knowing what burdens or advantages is granted to you from society when the veil is lifted. With this knowledge blocked, all parties from behind the veil must decide on principles for the distribution of rights, positions and resources in their society. The purpose for this, is to render moot those personal considerations that are morally irrelevant to the justice or injustice of principles meant to allocate the benefits of social cooperation. (Wikipedia, 2011, ”Veil of ignorance”).

Therefore, the parties are forced to look and argue from the position of the worst off members in society.

This thought experiment may be a useful way of seriously considering what future we want our coming generations to inherit. A way of making this thought experiment a bit more tangible and real, is to think of the millions upon millions of children that has not yet been born, who in fact is behind a some kind of a 'veil of ignorance'. The only difference is we have to do this for them with the veil lifted.

I hope this doesn’t put any constraints on the discussion, but let’s take an example that is very prevalent in todays society; the burden of the income tax. Is it fair and just that the rich pay lower taxes than the poor? How would you look at this from behind the veil?

reply posted on 27-1-2012 @ 02:14 PM by conlget

great subject, i would like to read more of this subject. my question is i understand the point to give the next generation a better start but non-the less how do we do this on the big scale? a small group it makes sense but how about 300,000 people, and now throw in how many perspective of morality there are then tie the main stream. funny storie, i grow up in a white town i was the only hispanic i had many best friends and even best best friends but around the 5th grade we learned about slaves and other things and when talked about the topic it was almost like the weight truned on me i always thought if we never learned about certin topics i would think nothing of whites or blacks or my own race. i went off topic a bit sorry.

reply posted on 27-1-2012 @ 02:34 PM by apushforenlightment

reply to post by conlget

Not sure you did go of topic. From my point you describe the sins of the older generation/history shaping the new generation in a thinking that creates sides/duality. Before you had the knowledge you where all one group and after you where told something you where split up and less harmonious. In one way its devide and conquer. So what would happen if we had a community in a bubble separated by the rest of the world where people were taken care of and taught higer ideals of unity and compasion and not allowed lessons of ego? Would this bubble thrive and become more efficiant than the competing egodriven world.

The best thing right now would probably be for the younger generation that from my point of view is getting the raw deal to tell the older generations in control to take their systems and shove it. The stupidety have gone on to long.

reply posted on 27-1-2012 @ 02:46 PM by autowrench

reply to post by Droogie

Good post, Droogie, star and flag. The post sparked a memory in my this morning when I first read it, and it just came to me what I was reminded of. I had to look it up, it is called, "Slavery and the 8 Veils."

Behind the first veil: There are over six billion people on the planet. Most of them live and die without having seriously contemplated anything other than what it takes to keep their lives together. Ninety percent of all humanity will live and die without having pierced the first veil.

The first veil: Ten percent of us will pierce the first veil and find the world of politics. We will vote, be active and have an opinion. Our opinions are shaped by the physical world around us; we have a tendency to accept that government officials, network media personalities and other “experts” are voices of authority. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without having pierced the second veil.

The second veil: Ten percent of us will pierce the second veil to explore the world of history, the relationship between man and government and the meaning of self-government through constitutional and common law. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without having pierced the third veil.

The third veil: Ten percent of us will pierce the third veil to find that the resources of the world, including people, are controlled by extremely wealthy and powerful families whose incorporated old world assets have, with modern extortion strategies, become the foundation upon which the world's economy is currently indebted. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without having pierced the fourth veil.

The fourth veil: Ten percent of us will pierce the fourth veil to discover the Illuminati, Freemasonry and the other secret societies. These societies use symbols and perform ceremonies that perpetuate the generational transfers of arcane knowledge that is used to keep the ordinary people in political, economic and spiritual bondage to the oldest bloodlines on earth. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without having pierced the fifth veil.

The fifth veil: Ten percent of us will pierce the fifth veil to learn that the secret societies are so far advanced technologically that time travel and interstellar communications have no boundaries and controlling the actions of people is what their members do as offhandedly as we tell our children when they must go to bed. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without having pierced the sixth veil.

The sixth veil: Ten percent of us will pierce the sixth veil where the dragons and lizards and aliens we thought were the fictional monsters of childhood literature are real and are the controlling forces behind the secret societies. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without piercing the seventh veil.

The seventh veil: I do not know what is behind the seventh veil. I think it is where your soul is evolved to the point you can exist on earth and be the man Ghandi was, or the woman Peace Pilgrim was-people so enlightened they brighten the world around them no matter what.

The eighth veil? Piercing the eighth veil probably reveals God and the pure energy that is the life force in all living things-which are, I think, one and the same.

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I think this relevant to your post, and in these end times, we all need to reflect that which holds us back from ascension. We all need to ask ourselves, what is it that keeps me ignorant of what is going on in the world? How many of these Veils of Ignorance and Slavery have I been able to pierce?

reply posted on 27-1-2012 @ 02:48 PM by Droogie

reply to post by conlget

The issue of slavery is also an important part of this thought experiment, don't feel bad. It's very much on topic!

how do we do this on the big scale? a small group it makes sense but how about 300,000 people, and now throw in how many perspective of morality there are then tie the main stream

Don't bother thinking about different perspectives on morality, because I think when one is behind the veil, one will argue from the worst position in society they may end up in. I think the issue of morality then lands on the matter of discourse ethics. Due to their social standing being an unknown, the parties will invariably argue from the position of the ones who are the worst off, e.g., the homeless, the poor, the unemployed, the minorities etc...

It's nice to hear that the matter of race didn't color the relationship with your friends, but it seems you were made aware of this due to the teachings in fifth grade. Maybe the saying of "those who don't know history are destined to repeat it" ring true. So I think learning about slavery is important, but it's despicable if it did anything with your relationship with your friends.

Although, if slavery was viewed in the perspective of the veil of ignorance, I don't think it would've been a reality.

That said, I think the veil of ignorance is flawed in a respect. It can only take into consideration what historically has happened, not anything that is unforeseen. But then again, it's a thought experiment, and we can't be prescient.

reply posted on 27-1-2012 @ 05:33 PM by apushforenlightment

reply to post by autowrench

Thank you for your posts. I always find your post intersting:

The fourth veil: I might be looking at some of this but im not sure how far it extends.

The fifth veil: Might be true but I haven't seen found any peices yeet and im not sure it fits in my puzzle. I like the idea of time travel but it is in direct violation with lifethread and the pattern theory where things are not at all random. And since I see synchronicity all around as proof of lifethread and the pattern theory I have a hard time with timetraveling. But I might be missing something or just making a wrong conclusion.

The sixth veil:Might be true

The seventh veil: I do not know if you are pushing chi/mana or having a developed third eye yeet. But it would not supprise me if you where or that you where close.

The eighth veil: Im not sure if this is seven also or there is something more.

I belive that:
I cannot see more than anyone else.
I can not hear with my ears anything more than anyone else.
I ones heard something in my head but that was a speical moment and have not returned.
I can feel some kind of energy flowing thru me and it started after the special moment. It seem to fit the description of chi and chakra seem to be a physical thing. Listening to meditation music have inreased it. Chi brings harmony.
The flow of energy can sometimes be feelt like it is shaped and moving in a way that feels like an caress. This caress is only felt on my head in area from nose, forehead, top to back.

Give me 40 more years in this harmonious chi to heal my mind from my experiances and I might become like Gandi. But probably moving behind the scenes. The problem is not thinking like Gandi or being like Gandi temporary. The problem is keeping the harmony when the people around you play with their egos. At least I can be a shiny happy people most of the time. But my mind is still a bit warped. Namaste

edit on 27-1-2012 by apushforenlightment because: spellchecking

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