I was reading the recent thread of Dawkins and his victory over creationism and intelligent design. I had to start my own thread because of it to get my thoughts out..

Oh boy. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this...but isn't this debate just about 2 sides of the same coin? I believe in evolution, but I also have doubts, because I believe that having beliefs kills thought. It is the best thing to explain how we got here. That being said, to me, it doesn't matter if God did it or if it happened by chance, because the outcome is the same. Furthermore, I think "Intellegent Design" is somewhat of a misnomer, because the word "Intelligent" implies only mental aptitude and not the summation of all the sentient being's knowledge. If you are intelligent, you are apt to soak up information and the ability to use that information. It is a process. If the being knew everything, that would mean he is God, and thus he transcends intelligence, laying outside of intelligence, and is therefore not intelligent so to speak, because he created the finite intelligence. What is God if not the keeper of all knowledge?

Now, I don't believe that we got here by chance. I'm not saying God did it. But if you think about the big bang and how everything shot out into space in all directions, all that stuff is just floating around without a mind of its own. It crashing into other stuff, and eventually planets form. It like a game of billiards, where the white ball hits another ball, causing them to collide. You don't move the ball around, making it curve in order to hit another. It simply WILL hit another because or inertia. It was destined to hit that ball from the start. That is the big bang. Every particle was destined to hit something else and was always going to hit something else. Particle A had to hit particle B because it was traveling in its direction and nowhere else to go and no way or moving itself. The planet earth HAD to be formed and was going to be formed since the first nanosecond of the universe, and subsequently life as well.Everything you see was always going to be there, but what you do is up in the air.

Here is the clencher. That reign of predestination ended as soon as the first thought was manifested by a brain.

So I guess if you think I believe in God, which I might depending on what you think of God, then know that I only worship the unfathomably hot and dense collection of matter and energy that gave birth to the stars and put me on this floating rock in space.

So, uh...yea. I don't know where I was going with that. It seemed like a good idea to post this at the time. What do you think?

My definition of God is this: I believe that we each have a soul (or some type of energy or life force). This soul has been through eons of lifetimes, or none at all..but while you are using your spirit to occupy your physical body you remember NONE of your previous lives. I believe this is a part of you that cannot die, and this part has been with you forever...when we die, our essence simply moves back to the collective whole [all of consciousness] and while you are in this area of collective consciousness you are in a Heaven, and I believe that it is here where you decide to live another life or remain in Heaven. God = That collective consciousness. In this sense, God is within all of us, and cannot exist as a whole without all of us..and that makes me feel big.

On a side note I will acknowledge that gas clouds and stars are life-givers and when they explode their "chemically rich guts" it enriches other pristine gas clouds, which then lead to microbial life and intelligent life. and in THIS respect we are the product of the hearts of dying stars..and that also makes me feel big.

Originally posted by SubPop79
Here is the clincher. That reign of predestination ended as soon as the first thought was manifested by a brain.

Really.....?

What you might want to consider is that maybe every one of your thoughts, deeds and actions is also predestined.

You may operate under the illusion of free will, but just think, if you were to find yourself in the exact same situation with the exact same mind frame you would make the exact same decision every single time.

It may appear as if you have an infinite number of possible choices in any given situation, and theoretically you do. But you only ever make one choice. And that choice is a combination of your personality, current frame of mind and the situation you find yourself in, each one as predetermined as Particle A hitting Particle B, as the formation of Earth as we know it.

Just think, if Particle A hit Particle C or D or X the universe may be completely different. But it didn't, and as such everything you see around you has unfolded exactly as it was always predestined to do, all the way down to every thought, word and deed you, I and everyone else has ever had or is having, right up to this very moment you finish reading this post and beyond....

Originally posted by arpgme

The Principle Of Uncertainty in Quantum Physics proves that Free Will exist. Those particles randomly appear at different places...

You would have to have "faith" to believe that the randomness of their popping into existence is somehow determined and to just observe them and just see that it is randomness.

I would love to be proved wrong on this, indeed the concept of supposed free-will vs. predestination is something I really struggle to comprehend on an intellectual level but unfortunately no one has given me a good enough argument to convince me otherwise.

And unfortunately the Uncertianty Principle doesn't quite cut it either. There is more unknowns in quantum physics than there are knowns, and just because we may not understand the logic or the mechanisms as to why a particle may disappear from one place and reappear in another does not mean that it is random. It just means that it appears that way. I can see what you are saying about 'faith', but keep in mind youcould say this about anything.

Also could you explain how this relates to the concept of free-will. I do kinda get it but am interested in your take on it.

Cheers.