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A question about 9/11 Truth ?

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posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 07:39 AM
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Many people who are not 9/11 Truthers tell me that 9/11 was caused by U.S. Foreign Policy. Do you think 9/11 Truth covers up the fact that the Arabs/Muslims hate Amerca because of our Foreign Policy ? What does everyone here think ?


Below are texts of Bin Laden speeches. They are worth reading because so much of the reporting about them is incomplete or distorted. It is ironical that we are told that few believed Hitler's speeches, wherein he laid out all his plans. Yet with Bin Laden, Washington made every effort to prevent them being heard or published. In particular this is because Bin Laden repeatedly states that it is American policies which he opposes, while the Bush Administration repeatedly claims that his actions are because America is "free" and "good," and because he wants to re-establish the 12th Century Muslim Empire. Note how his "bleed until bankruptcy" plan (below) certainly is progressing effectively, even beyond Bin Laden's wildest dreams. Indeed he is a master tactician worthy of Sun Tzu, using America own strength to do incredible damage to itself, just like a jujitsu wrestler.

iraqwar.org...




posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 07:48 AM
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Towards the end of the eighties, Benazir Bhutto told George H. W. Bush, in reference to the US funding and training of the Mujahideen: "You are creating a frankenstein".

So yes, foreign policy does have something to do with 9/11. But the United States government also needed 9/11 to happen, and got its wish. All it had to do was hinder any attempts by its own law enforcement and intelligence agencies to stop the attack, and it did.



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 08:16 AM
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reply to post by mikejohnson2006
 


Yes some Muslims hate the Us because of it's policies, and the appropriate term for when they take revenge is "blow back" and the US government, including the Obama administration, doesn't seem to be concerned with that, as they well know that the more real the threat becomes (even if they created the threat in the first place) the easier it is to get people to choke down the policies and even expand on them.

Before 911, pre-emptive war didn't really exist as a policy, because no one would support bombing or invading another country because they might, someday, pose a threat.

Slam a few jetliners into a few buildings and the whole game changes.

Do I believe 911 truth is an attempt to cover up the Muslims that do hate us? No. But some people involved in the truth movement sure seem to be steering it that way.

Instead, I see the official story as a propaganda device designed to both horrify you, and also make it easier to dehumanize the "enemy". Haven't you wondered why no one asked WHY this happened? They concentrated on the how, but not the WHY.

Elements within the government who were part of PNAC (Project for a new American Century) openly lamented over the lack of a "pearl harbor" type catalyzing event to help polarize the nation behind a mission of global conquest. Every nation targeted by that group has been targeted by the US, all of them.

The only way 911 was possible (even if you completely ignore the case for controlled demolition) is with some well placed agents within the US government helping it. This doesn't mean the entire government is guilty, or even Bush. I'm pretty sure from that video from the school Bush learned about it around the same time the rest of the world did, he was not involved.

So, if the official story is true and it was Bin Laden, that's a direct result of US policy, funding arming and training him and his men in the 80s, as well as sending troops into Saudi Arabia, which is what got OBL hating on the US in the first place, as well as their support for Israels occupation of Gaza.

If one of the 911 theories (mossad) is true, that's also directly related to US policy, namely, sending billions a year in aid to ISrael to help them fund the attack, as well as their policies which helped recruit suicide attackers.



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 08:20 AM
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reply to post by mikejohnson2006
 



Many people who are not 9/11 Truthers tell me that 9/11 was caused by U.S. Foreign Policy.

Nope. 9/11 was caused by homicidal maniacs possibly motivated by religious hatred. No matter what form US foreign policy took, there was nothing in it to "cause" 19 men to hijack four airplanes and kill thousands of innocents. They did it of their own free will. At any point they could have stopped.



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 08:32 AM
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Originally posted by hooper
Nope. 9/11 was caused by homicidal maniacs possibly motivated by religious hatred. No matter what form US foreign policy took, there was nothing in it to "cause" 19 men to hijack four airplanes and kill thousands of innocents. They did it of their own free will. At any point they could have stopped.


I would take that a step further. There was no reason why the Boeing 767's that impacted the World Trade Center could not have suffered mechanical failure en route to stop the attack. Therefore, it's Boeing's fault. And maybe religion, too. Who knows.

Anyways, the hijackers selected the United States for a reason. And that reason wasn't "they hate our freedoms", or they could have attacked Sweden instead.

I'm sick and tired of dumb hundred-percenter rhetoric.

I want to add: I am no friend of Islamic extremists. At all. But it's moronic to just stick your head in the sand and pretend foreign policy had nothing to do with this.
edit on 21-12-2011 by snowcrash911 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 08:42 AM
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This pisses me off:



As it should, anybody.



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 08:44 AM
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This pisses me off, too.



Isn't he under oath? Why didn't Tenet go to jail?



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 08:44 AM
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It is absolutely correct that Middle Eastern Muslims to despise the US due to our foreign policy decisions dating back to the 1920’s.

As well they should.

The issues have only gotten worst over the last few decades, and this last decade the US has been extremely irresponsible in the Middle East, killing over 1 million Muslims.

The Middle Eastern Muslim have sound, tangible, and current reasons to hate and fear the US’s involment in their affairs.

The US doesn’t support Israel because of the Jewish / Christian heritage shared, that reason is for the consumption of the public in the US.

The US supports Israel for its strategic location in the region.

The strategic location of Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait are as used to the advantage of the US as are several other Middle Eastern Nations.

The US foreign policy in this region is a puppet for Saudi Arabia relations with its neighbors.

9 11 , the citizens of the US were told that the highjackers were Saudi nationals, masterminded by a Saudi National, and the US attacks Afghanistan.

What kind of foreign policy is that.

The US has openly stated that it will pursue terrorist where ever they are, just another lie.

The US will used raptor drones in the US,

but,

You don’t see raptor drones being used over Saudi soil, they may be based in Saudi Arabia but not utilized over Saudi soil. WHY ?

US / Saudi Foreign Policy.

But, to answer the question concerning 9 11,

It is very naive to believe that 19 Saudi nationals high jacked four airplanes, during a North-Com drill in which airplanes were to be simulated high jacked, then without any flight experience maneuver these huge aircraft in impossible flight paths to hit three targets.

Without some kind of help from the inside.



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 08:52 AM
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reply to post by phishyblankwaters
 


Your post is spot on
But,

The idea of pre-emptive war has been used before.

Can anyone guess what leader, what Nation ?

Adolph Hitler , Germany 1939.

Each and every move the US has made as a result of 9 11 was employed by Hitler in the creation of the Third Reich.



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by brokedown
It is very naive to believe that 19 Saudi nationals high jacked four airplanes, during a North-Com drill in which airplanes were to be simulated high jacked, then without any flight experience maneuver these huge aircraft in impossible flight paths to hit three targets.


Yet, that is exactly what happened, because we know what happened on board due to phone calls from passengers. Unless you think stabbing passengers is part of an "exercise".



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by mikejohnson2006
Many people who are not 9/11 Truthers tell me that 9/11 was caused by U.S. Foreign Policy. Do you think 9/11 Truth covers up the fact that the Arabs/Muslims hate Amerca because of our Foreign Policy ? What does everyone here think ?



I would say YES, the muslim world isn't particularly chummy with us because no matter what happens, we always seen to side in with Israel on all matters, and after decades of favoritism the Muslim world is seeing our self declared neutrality as having no credibility. That said, NO, I can't say "Arabs/Muslims hate America" because not every single one of them has the fringe, outer space religious fringe convictions that the hijackers did. They're not robots, or a bunch of animals. They're people exactly like us, who simply want to live their lives and raise their families in peace. If you read some of the Arab issues board, a lot fo them are disgusted at the excesses of their religious fringe (like that douchebag in Pakistan who stoned his own daughter to death simply because she had a boyfriend) just as we are.

As for the reasons for the attack, even Lee Hamilton (the 9/11 commission chair) said he never found a concrete reason for why the hijackers did it, but we do know that while he was studying for his architectural degree in Germany Mohammed Atta wrote a paper on how he hated skyscrapers because they destroyed traditional city landscapes, and while there he turned all his fellow students off on how NYC was the capital of international Jewish domination. I have absolutely nothing to base this on, but I personally think that Mohammed Atta was a sociopath and simply got off on hurting people, and he used al Qaida every bit as much as they used him. A few weeks after 9/11, I read a news story on how investigators suspected most of the hijackers were hoodwinked by Atta and they thought it was going to be a traditional hijacking rather than a suicide mission, but there's no way we'll ever know.

...so yes, the 9/11 truthers are deliberately covering up a LOT of inconvenient facts they don't want to address. To push out their "the gov't is plotting to murder us all" conspiracy stories they'll argue over every nut and bolt of stupid crap like how Prescott Bush had links to Hitler, but they seem to have blissful amnesia when it comes to all the OTHER dozens of airline hijackings Muslim fanatics have pulled off in the last decades. Heck, Muslim Fundamentalists even massacred tourists at the El Al airline counters in the airports at Rome and Vienna back in the 80's. Alex Jones neglected to mention that, huh?



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by snowcrash911
 



I want to add: I am no friend of Islamic extremists. At all. But it's moronic to just stick your head in the sand and pretend foreign policy had nothing to do with this.

US Foreign policy had nothing to do with this act of murder. It was murder. And the perpetrators were perfectly free to not murder anyone. Nothing in our foreign policy compelled them to act as they did. This was not a rational act, it was an act that was rationalized. It was an expression of the will of the persons who committed the crime, not an effect caused by foreign policy.



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by GoodOlDave
As for the reasons for the attack, even Lee Hamilton (the 9/11 commission chair) said he never found a concrete reason for why the hijackers did it


That's a lie. You are lying, and Lee Hamilton is lying. Let's look at this 9/11 debunker video from Youtube user "RepresentativePress".




Originally posted by GoodOlDave
(...) but we do know that while he was studying for his architectural degree in Germany Mohammed Atta wrote a paper on how he hated skyscrapers because they destroyed traditional city landscapes


Wow... so I guess Atta was simply trying to radically redecorate the World Trade Center. I get it now.

Who's hiding inconvenient facts?



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by snowcrash911
 


US Foreign policy had nothing to do with this act of murder.


Total BS. It had everything to do with it.


Originally posted by hooper
It was murder. And the perpetrators were perfectly free to not murder anyone.


Yes, and if somebody rapes and murders your daughter, you're "perfectly free" not to retaliate. But if you do, I would say the rape and murder of your daughter had something to do with it. That's called the "motive", and the possession of free will does not magically make motive go away.


Originally posted by hooper
Nothing in our foreign policy compelled them to act as they did.


Your foreign policy is their recruitment tool.


Originally posted by hooper
This was not a rational act, it was an act that was rationalized. It was an expression of the will of the persons who committed the crime, not an effect caused by foreign policy.


I'm not "rationalizing" anything. You are deliberately confusing free will with motive. The motive is US foreign policy, and Philip Zelikow, Lee Hamilton and Thomas Kean dutifully covered that up, among many other things. Clearly you are doing the same thing. The topic makes you nervous.

It is not a necessity that foreign policy must cause people to commit terrorist acts. They are also free to slavishly accept the humiliation and oppression they're subjected to. Some, however, do not. They radicalize, join a jihadist network and commit terrorist acts. The climate of hate created by the United States' destructive, exploitative foreign policy is a contributing factor. A motivator. There is a constellation of causes and United States foreign policy is one of them.

The notion that 9/11 was somehow a "random act of free will" is surely one of the weakest debunker lies I have ever heard.
edit on 21-12-2011 by snowcrash911 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 10:35 AM
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It depends on what you want the TRUTH about.

Whether or not an airliner weighing less than 200 tons could totally obliterate a skyscraper 2000 times its own mass in less than two hours has nothing whatsoever to do with foreign policy.

It is strictly a physics and engineering problem.

psik



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by psikeyhackr
Whether or not an airliner weighing less than 200 tons could totally obliterate a skyscraper 2000 times its own mass in less than two hours


In fact, if we take the popular figure of 500 * 10^6(kg) for the mass of one tower and divide that by 115212(kg), the mass of one Boeing 767-222, we get 4000, not 2000. Moreover, the North Tower collapsed in an hour and forty minutes, while the South Tower collapsed in just an hour.

Furthermore, if indeed the towers collapsed naturally, the towers destroyed the towers, not the planes. The planes destroyed columns and set multiple floors ablaze.


Originally posted by psikeyhackr
has nothing whatsoever to do with foreign policy. It is strictly a physics and engineering problem.

psik


Once the only tool you have is a hammer....



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 10:55 AM
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reply to post by snowcrash911
 



The notion that 9/11 was somehow a "random act of free will" is surely one of the weakest debunker lies I have ever heard.

Random? Not by a long shot. Free will? Absolutely. They were not compelled to act. They may have rationalized their despicable behavior and you may want to blame the victim, but in the end it was perfect free will. Motivation? That's just another word for rationalizing which is another way to avoid placing the full responsibility where it belongs.



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by snowcrash911
 


The notion that 9/11 was somehow a "random act of free will" is surely one of the weakest debunker lies I have ever heard.

Random? Not by a long shot. Free will? Absolutely. They were not compelled to act. They may have rationalized their despicable behavior and you may want to blame the victim, but in the end it was perfect free will. Motivation? That's just another word for rationalizing which is another way to avoid placing the full responsibility where it belongs.


I'm not blaming the victim, I'm blaming the ignorance and deliberate denial on the part of you and your idiotic government in motivating terrorist attacks through a catastrophic and unsustainable foreign policy.


Originally, blowback was CIA internal coinage denoting the unintended, harmful consequences—to friendly populations and military forces—when a given weapon is carelessly used. Examples include anti-Western religious fanatics (see Osama bin Laden) who, in due course, attack foe and sponsor; right-wing counter-revolutionaries who sell drugs to their sponsor’s civil populace (see CIA and Contras coc aine trafficking in the US); and banana republic juntas (see Salvadoran Civil War) who kill American reporters or nuns (see Dorothy Kazel).

In formal, print usage, the term blowback first appeared in the Clandestine Service History—Overthrow of Premier Mossadeq of Iran—November 1952–August 1953, the CIA internal history of the US’s 1953 Iranian coup d'état.[2][3] Examples of blowback include the CIA’s financing and support for Afghan insurgents to fight an anti-Communist proxy guerilla war against the USSR in Afghanistan; some of the beneficiaries of this CIA support joined al-Qaeda's terrorist campaign against the United States.[4]


Wikipedia: blowback

The CIA knows, you don't. Because they won't tell you en publique.
edit on 21-12-2011 by snowcrash911 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 11:25 AM
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reply to post by mikejohnson2006
 



I don't feel that the Truth movement is discounting the possibility that there exists motivation by individuals to attack the US but in connecting the dots it all points back to us unfortunately.

The fundamental argument raised generally points to the Govt. being capable of killing of Americans......

If you want the truth as far as this is concerned then simply look at our Civil Defense System.

What exists for the Govt. to protect the American population in the event of Nuclear war ?

Where are Americans to go in the event of a natural disaster ? There is no official Shelter provided but only your local school or other govt. building.

On the contrary what do the Govt. officials have for themselves ?

Deep Underground bomb shelters with food, water AND health facilities.

In the event of a Nuclear War who to you think would survive ? Those in the basement of their local High School or those miles underground with ample supplies of Food and Water ?

With the military guarding the entrance to keep us out ?

There is your evidence as to OUR value and worth in the bigger picture....they couldn't give a Rat's A$$ about us and sadly neither did they on 911.




Peace



posted on Dec, 21 2011 @ 11:42 AM
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reply to post by snowcrash911
 



I'm not blaming the victim, I'm blaming the ignorance and deliberate denial on the part of you and your idiotic government in motivating terrorist attacks through a catastrophic and unsustainable foreign policy.


I take it by your grammar that you're not an American. Fine. You want motivation? I can just as easily suggest that the true motivation was to promote Islamic world domination by creating an event that would place the Muslim world population in a position that would force them to choose sides in an Armageddon like battle between the Christian west and the Islamic east.




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