Neuroscientist Has a Near-Death Experience

This is one of my very favorite subjects! Thanks for posting. I especially enjoyed the article on the people who jumped off the bridges.

Starred and Flagged

Originally posted by Kandinsky
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Some of the tales screw with modern conceptions of science and even basic reasoning. After all, how can a consciousness see or hear? With what can it process the information of photons that generate vision? What part of consciousness can vibrate and convert sound waves into coherent voices or sounds? ‘I felt calm’ is an emotional appraisal that asks, once more, how a non-physical *something* like consciousness can analog the enzymes that make us feel sad or happy? Tough questions and very basic – no wonder much of science has a big problem accepting the on-going research into NDEs!
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From the basic questions, we’re off into possibilities of telepathy, after-life hierarchies, meaningful life and *GASP,* the chance that physical humanity is not the finished article!
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I would ask: How can a body see, hear or feel?

I just want to point out that there is a very different way you could look at all this. To me the huge curiosity of life is how and why bodies were designed to do all that they do, if consciousness alone has so many similar capabilities.

After all, what is consciousness? Neuroscience has somehow lost its orientation on this most basic point. It thinks it is studying consciousness. But doesn't the body more closely resemble other tools we now use all the time to extend our senses? The camera (sight); the microphone (sound); all kinds of sensors (touch, etc.). Given our technical advances, what is the more understandable analogy? That of a deaf and dumb consciousness climbing into a body just so it can experience something, or that of a very able consciousness playing around with the body just because it was curious?

To answer your queries: Consciousness can experience all sorts of energies directly. It doesn't need to convert photons to images. It doesn't need to convert sound to electrical signals. The body has to do that; consciousness doesn't have to.

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I’m a fairly materialist guy in the way I think that science will have the answers to everything...given enough time, professionalism and funding. I also understand that science doesn’t have all the answers and shouldn’t be afraid to look in places that makes it nervous. Conversely, I doubt that meditating, chanting or hitting the pews every Sunday will lead further than science can take us.
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Step back and look at this statement in its purity. In the first sentence a full and firm belief in "science" is asserted. Then the various rituals of various religions are brought into question. But what does the first sentence convey, really, other than a religious belief? Isn't that all it really is?

But I will give you this: If you had said, "I think that the scientific method has more potential for advancing human progress than most religious practices I am aware of," I would have been agreeable with this assertion.

But the fact is that our new "church" of "science" has been confronted with many findings that seem to have been arrived at in accordance with the scientific method, and dismissed them on the grounds that the work was not done by "real scientists." In fact, much of this work was done by very educated men or women, some of them with academic training, who simply could not get funding or other support from the academic community so sought it elsewhere.

The work includes breakthroughs in energy generation, physics, medicine, psychology, history and theology. All ignored by your "science" because the work was done by "outsiders."

Someone is not being totally honest with us, and I don't think that all those "independent" researchers are quacks. I think that "science" has built up an operation that it is now trying to protect, just like various churches did in the past.

Near Death Experiences can be interesting. But most who die are not able to tell us what their experience was. And that's lost knowledge. My worry is that our planet could have a "nearly complete" death experience before we get the chance to realize that we are sitting right on top of some of the most important data that any society has ever developed. And the only reason we aren't picking up on that data, testing it and using it is due to the suppressive effects of vested interests on this planet that very much include "science."

A majority of neurologists and scientists out there won't venture into this subject because they don't see how there can be an experience outside the brain, or without the brain.

It's sad, scientists need to realize that we DON'T have all the answers. And that just because some previous theory or "fact" says that it's not possible because we can't see, feel, touch, or measure it, that it doesn't mean it's not happening!

Ehh whatever, i can't seem to think straight tonight...I'll come back later when my thoughts and words are functioning better.

word up.

OH and OP, thanks for the great post. This has been the thread i've been looking for all day

reply to post by angellicview
Glad you liked it and even more that you read one of the linked articles!

This is ATS where links are usually seen as decoration.

You might enjoy a similar article that deals with suicide jumpers in a different way. In this thread, there's a suggestion of interconnectedness between people and something deeper. In the article below, it's suggestive of what can happen when somebody no longer feels connected to either people or something deeper.

Mr. Hines described his struggle with a severe bipolar disorder that emerged during his adolescence and worsened over time. Mr. Hines was overwhelmed by paranoid delusions and command auditory hallucinations demanding that he kill himself. Unable to function, he withdrew from college and immediately took a bus to the Golden Gate Bridge. Like many people about to commit suicide, he was ambivalent about dying. He tarried at the bridge railing for about 40 minutes, trying to decide whether to go through with his plan to jump.

A number of people walked by him, oblivious to his anguish, unaware of his life-and-death struggle. Mr. Hines told us that "If someone had smiled and said, ‘Are you okay?’ I know I would have begged them to help me. I would have told them everything and asked for help. I would not have jumped. I just was unable to ask for help myself." In fact, a foreign tourist did stop and talk with Mr. Hines. She asked him to take her picture, which he did. As she walked away, he felt more than ever that "Nobody really cares." He jumped. On the way down, he changed his mind. He remembered thinking, "I want to live. Why am I doing this?" It was too late. Severely injured, Mr. Hines was kept afloat by a sea lion until rescuers arrived.

Just a Smile and a Hello on the Golden Gate Bridge

It's as if his wish to live plugged him back into 'the something deeper' and, with the unlikely help of a sea lion, he survived. A sea lion?! It sounds unbelievably improbable and yet it happened.

reply to post by l_e_cox
Thanks for your thoughtful post, you've clearly spent time thinking about the subject and my comments in the OP.

I'm not sure you haven't misconstrued my comments as indicating some certainty or set-beliefs. This isn't the case and I remain open-minded to the topics in the thread. Consciousness, and what it is or might be, hasn't been explained to anyone's satisfaction yet, although many would have us believe they have the certainty of evidence.

Where I take the view that science will be able to explain consciousness eventually, is in the expectation that it is bound by laws of physics we, possibly, haven't discovered yet. By this, I mean that, if autonomous from body, consciousness should involve energy and matter. Such things would be measurable and fall within a framework or theory. You'll notice how I've limited the choice of words to maybes, expectations and shoulds? This is because there isn't enough evidence, or a leading theory, that satisfies me enough to be conclusive or talk in concrete absolutes.

But the fact is that our new "church" of "science" has been confronted with many findings that seem to have been arrived at in accordance with the scientific method, and dismissed them on the grounds that the work was not done by "real scientists." In fact, much of this work was done by very educated men or women, some of them with academic training, who simply could not get funding or other support from the academic community so sought it elsewhere.

The work includes breakthroughs in energy generation, physics, medicine, psychology, history and theology. All ignored by your "science" because the work was done by "outsiders."

I agree that science has often failed to rise to new challenges and has dragged its feet for a long time in some cases. I disagree with your suggestion that it's a religion - science is in constant flux and constantly being attacked by new ideas. It isn't a perfect system, but is far from the static concept of religious institutions. Where it is like institutions is in the way human nature is emotional and scientists are human and exercise prejudices and politics like the rest of us.

Like it or not, science is the best way to explore consciousness and everything else. The questions I toyed with in the OP are where science starts out. You state that consciousness can do this, that and the other without the use of a body. Maybe it can? It would take science to find out and prove it.

imho - some of the BEST NDE stuff comes not from paranormal websites like this (and others) but from nurses forums (especially the hospice ones). wanna read some creepy stuff? look through some of those. they aren't full of nutjobs posting and trying to one-up one another or wax poetic about stuff they've never been through or witnessed first-hand like the armchair critics that they are. (not saying you guys are doing that but a lot of 'paranormal' websites/forums do).

hospice nurses though? yeesh - some of the things i've read really weird me out.

reply to post by h4y6d2e
A study found over 80% of nurses had anecdotal evidence of something unusual happening on their wards in the two years prior to the study (iirc). These amounted to alarm clocks going off at the time of death, visions, NDEs and any number of weird sounds.

I can see those things when meditating, it has something to do with breathing and your brain. Try it for yourself and you'll see lights and images of all kind.

However, this is not to deny the fact that some NDE are Actual Death Experiences or ADE, where the person actually dies then comes back to life again, I've only heard of one person that it happened to where she was declared dead and after a few hours she came back to life then died again.

reply to post by Kandinsky


I almost wept when I read the second reference you posted Spirituality and Psychiatry. 'Psychiatry', it has been said to me, 'is a new and infantile science that gropes around in the dark and on occasion hits the nail on the head.'

Spiritual experience has never been a subject that was safe to discuss with a psychiatrist, doing so, could add to your symptom list in the form of 'delusion' and lead to an increased dosage of debilitating medications. It would seem that to acknowledge the influence of religious or spiritual experience on a patient's state, or even on the psychiatrist's own self, may have adversely affected the career prospects of any psychiatrist who did so right up to 1999 when 'The Psychiatry and Spirituality special interest group was formed.

The Special Interest Group was founded in 1999 to provide a forum for
psychiatrists to explore the influence of the major religions, which shape
the cultural values and aspirations of psychiatrist and patient alike. The
spiritual aspirations of persons not identifying with any one particular faith
are held to be of no less importance, as well as the viewpoint of those who
hold that spirituality is independent of religion. The meetings are designed
to enable colleagues to investigate and share without fear of censure the
relevance of spirituality to clinical practice. The Special Interest Group aims to
contribute a framework of ideas of general interest to the College, stimulating
discussion and promoting an integrative approach to mental healthcare. For
patients, there is the need to help the service user feel supported in being
able to bring spiritual concerns to the fore (www.rcpsych.ac.uk/college/
specialinterestgroups/spirituality.aspx)

I would submit that there has been a fear for the individual, not only of ridicule from peers, but of punitive treatment (including loss of liberty for indefinite periods of time) that has precluded properly funded research into spiritual experience, It would seem that perhaps now psychiatry may be open to acknowledge the whole human experience - now I may be able to begin to take the profession seriously.

How much has psychiatry failed to learn of the human condition over the years by reducing peoples' experience down to hallucination and/or delusion? How much damage has it done by its failure to acknowledge the real and meaningful spiritual experiences of their patients and its labelling of these experiences as 'illness'.

I have had some of the most illuminating moments in my life in conversation with those in the throws of psychosis who confronted me with fundamental truths of our human nature and existence which have altered my perspective for life in a very positive way.

The NDE is fascinating...and hope-full. It tells us that there is so much more to learn about what and why we are. I'd argue that speaking to a psychotic - during and after their experience - can also teach us that there is more to us than there appears to be.

Very interesting, it's uncanny how people report the same things in these experiences.

reply to post by christina-66

Spiritual experience has never been a subject that was safe to discuss with a psychiatrist, doing so, could add to your symptom list in the form of 'delusion' and lead to an increased dosage of debilitating medications.

I think there are many instances that support your view and that continue to occur although it's largely dependent on which perspective they subscribe to. Psychiatry is a divided house with little consensus about treatment, causes or symptoms.

I have had some of the most illuminating moments in my life in conversation with those in the throws of psychosis who confronted me with fundamental truths of our human nature and existence which have altered my perspective for life in a very positive way.

The NDE is fascinating...and hope-full. It tells us that there is so much more to learn about what and why we are. I'd argue that speaking to a psychotic - during and after their experience - can also teach us that there is more to us than there appears to be.

I think we've had differing experiences in this area. Through my work and life, my experiences of psychotic episodes have been entirely absent of anything positive. These include, but not limited to, violent assaults, self-harming and placing themselves in high-risk situations. For those who I've been emotionally invested in, it's difficult for all sides.

The NDE certainly appears to be hopeful and offers the ultimate incentive that, beyond the problems of this world, there may be an existence where empathy and togetherness take precedence over division. Of course, it might just be a pre-death illusion, but it still seems a good place to experience...even if briefly.

reply to post by christina-66


Don’t get me wrong I’ve seen the negatives in psychosis too – the fear it engenders for both the sufferer and their loved ones - and firmly believe that when an individual goes through such an experience they need to be protected...and if it goes so far others need protecting from the psychotic. I’ve seen poor souls reduced to the level of beast and lose the ability to speak. They are both terrifying and terrified.

However, there seems to be different forms of psychoses. Perhaps due to a sufferers background and belief system or perhaps because these people may not all be having the same experience.

Some psychotics, it would seem, directly experience this sense of universal unity which triggers a manic joy they want to share with everybody. These are the people who can be sectioned because they are rendered vulnerable because they are too trusting of everybody (including complete strangers) and not necessarily because they are a direct danger to themselves and no danger at all to any other individual.

It is their experience which appears to parallel the testimonies of those who have NDE’s – and in my view are worthy of further investigation by open minded clinicians.

The ‘new’ physics may have more answers for the psychiatric patient than their doctor in the future. Is there a matrix of consciousness that exists outside normal space-time paradigms? Aldous Huxley speculates in his work ‘The Doors of Perception’ (1954) that there may well be, arguing that there appears to be a mind at large that encapsulates everything, interconnecting all things. He suggests that the so-called schizophrenic could be the soul who perceives this mind at large and either tolerates it (heaven) or is overwhelmed by it (hell) (Huxley 1956). He asks some very prudent questions in relation to the conditions under which an individual may begin to perceive that which is beyond our contemporary consciousness, heavenly or hellish. Lyall Watson in his book ‘Lifetide’ (1979) refers to a contingent force that appears to hold life together, a universal force which is intelligent.

Source - rcpsyche

reply to post by VoidHawk


Makes me think about that baby with only a brain stem, no brain, who is now two years old. The mind is capable of wonderful things.

This article makes me want to kill myself. Anyone else?

I'm a believer of life after dead, because I have experienced it myself once. But maybe this video can contribute to this topic good thread



part one



part two

The God of the Bible stands as the most tenable source of the specified complexity of interconnected neurons upon which human and much animal life depends. Until a naturalistic alternative can explain how a self-healing, adaptive, cosmic-sized internet of connectivity has been shrunk down to the size of a brain, then it is best to identify this hyper-tech design as being the product of a real Designer. And until an objective body of evidence can legitimately debunk the Bible's historicity and proven accuracy, then it is best to identify this Designer as the Creator and Sustainer revealed in Scripture.

Originally posted by Misterlondon
one thing that always fascinated me about the whole nde thing.. I remember reading somewhere about a hospital that put obscure items on top of cabinets etc (hidden from view from the ground)
I cant remember the exact details but people claiming nde's and floating out of their bodies, were able to describe these objects after being resuscitated..

This has also been claimed by people having just an average OBE. It makes sense that people would notice that since the sheer number of people experiencing these things would necessarily end up including people who would try to understand what was happening to them. They would wonder if it was real or imagined. So if they remember seeing something on a high shelf when NDE or OBE, they would later, when back to normal, take a ladder or whatever to see if the object was there. When they could see the object was there, it would go a long way to proving to themselves that they had not imagined it and were indeed independent of their own body during the experience.

The only answer science has ever given to these cases are "there's no proof for this. I hasn't been documented. They were lying." Hey science: not a good enough answer.

I have made this point before, to the atheists and anyone else.

If you honestly believe there is no life after death then how can you, using science, explain the flurry of activity in the brain right up to the point of death? How can you explain the fact that the brain, which amasses information is continuously processing sensory information, including PAIN.

What is the net result of this? The sensory input is what defines us, we are ever evolving because our personality, that part of us that is made up of the mind, the body (which makes up the soul) is continuing on, being fed one moment at a time.

So to believe that we simply switch off and that's it goes against the science that has recognised those dying moments in the first place.

So many amazing personalities in this world. Take yourself for instance, right up to the moment you will die, you will become more and more, with each sensory input your are changing and learning, for some of us, getting a bit wiser and older. Are we really supposed to accept that our beautiful mind, that is a part of our personality that is our voice (inside and outside) ceases to exist?

For some of us, we may leave a legacy behind, if we are really lucky a few people will have nice words to say about us but for the rest of us we are damned....

What a waste of a beautiful mind, that is all I have to say to people who are so tied down by this materialistic world that they cannot accept that maybe, just maybe the mind does live in. The voice inside, that is you, does exist and carries on learning, simply moving from this realm into a more ethereal state (as energy possibly).

People like that must fear death, a lot. Because if you had any notion to live on, you had the desire to live fully (which encompasses living beyond this physical and materialistic world) then you wouldn't fear death, you would fear that you hadn't lived enough to make a change to yourself, your family or friends or if you're fortunate, the world.

Adios.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by mnmcandiez

 

'___' has been used as a panacea to explain UFOs, NDEs, ghosts, alien abductions and plenty more.

Nothing I've read is as conclusive as '___'-supporters report.

'___', to me, proves nothing about anything except that maybe there's a physical component to these experiences that is PART of the experiences. But it doesn't mean that the experience is not real on its own or as apart from any physical or neurological processes taking place. If we are essentially spiritual consciousness embedded in a body, then that body would necessarily act to filter our perceptions and experience. That altering that body's chemistry in any way would change our perceptions makes sense, but it certainly doesn't mean that THIS is indeed the consensus reality and that by manipulating our perception of it physically brings forth 'faulty' or 'illusory' realities.

The brain reacts and/or causes all sorts of states. Those with severe depression have markedly different processes going on in their brains. It's been shown that if someone suffers a depressive episode not originally linked to the brain, such as death of a loved one or some other traumatic experience, if they remain in this state for a lengthy amount of time, their brain chemistry actually changes, making it more difficult for some people to get over the traumatic event. Their brain chemistry changed, but that doesn't mean they weren't depressed about something quite real in their lives.

Science constantly seeks to prove that everything, including our own consciousness, is completely dependent on physical, material, chemical processes. It especially seeks to do this to explain things it has no explanation for. But that's ironic since science itself has also proven that consciousness itself affects and alters these physical processes. This fact is conveniently forgotten when explaining NDEs, OBEs, etc.

Starred and flagged. Excellent thread. NDEs are a FASCINATING subject, and they piqued my interest about spirituality even more when I first heard about them.

One interesting thing about many accounts of NDEs that I have read, is that they are all immediately detached from what's going on below them... someone is attempting to resuscitate them... they're in a hospital bed and the doctor and nurses are frantic.. the person having the NDE will be detached and confused about why they are being so panicky, and then once they get over that, the cool stuff starts happening (tunnels, gateways, doors to the next spiritual plane/heaven/ what have you).

It's also fascinating how people recount relatives they have never met, can describe things that they saw in their hospital ward that are out of sight, etc.

Some of their stories are so inspiring, and it has helped to convince me that there is another 'realm' after our time on earth. People come back from those experiences and they can recall the intense love and renewed hope for life. I am kind of jealous of them

Oh, and it's nice to have a thread like this on the front page. It reminds me of the old ATS. Nowadays it seems like 90% of threads on the front page is political drivel.. and the nice threads like this always seem to have a habitual debunker as the first person to reply.. not going to mention names, but take a look at the first reply in this thread

Originally posted by hotbread
I can see those things when meditating, it has something to do with breathing and your brain. Try it for yourself and you'll see lights and images of all kind.

The people who experience NDEs don't just experience lights and images. They are much more detailed and thorough than that, though I would agree that meditating can show you things, just on a much smaller and less impressive scale than what happens during an NDE.