A Test On Socialism

Yeah, I've seen this before. I see some serious holes in it. I am not socialist, and the country I live in is not socialist (though many people ignorant think it is). It has a socialized medical care system though, which is multipayer (and is only available to the employed). Though the economy is capitalist, there still is some socialist values that run underneath the surface.

I don't know if this was a true story, but if it was, I am willing to bet it was in the US. That means the kids were American and were infused with American ideals and values. That is what changes the outcome.

In our american culture, it is "each man for himself", so it follows that each kid will only be concerned about themself as if they were an island, and come up with this result. The mistake is in the assumption that this egoism is an innate human dominant attribute. It is a cultural value that is conditioned and comes from education.

In France, you do the same test, guess what you get?
The kids who worked hard and got a lower result put pressure on the ones that didn't to pick up the effort.
The other kids, all conditioned with the value of respecting the pack and peer pressure as vital, are strongly influenced by the threat of being ostracized by the others, fearing it, work harder for their peers acceptance.

The overall grade goes up. This is why the french have the funny way of being extremely productive, despite that they work less hours on the whole. That time off is to make the social ties stronger which are the "real authority".

American kids are taught not to follow the crowd, not to pressure each other, but remain focused either on themself, or the teacher. Peer pressure is considered a bad thing, and jumping off cliffs seems to be a common worry when they get together......

That is why I think that a socialized program may work well in one place, with a certain culture, but would be a terrible fail in another, depending upon the cultural values. Only in a few generations, if we could change the values through time, could that sort of thing work in the US. We are too selfish, and too...independant, to be able to work together in such a way and be constructive.

reply to post by Bluesma

Finally someone gives an explanation about socialism that would make one stop and think about it. Thanks for your reply.

Even though I still dont want to see socialism in America, like you said, it might work elsewhere.

People are taught in America to be Independent, to take care of themselves and family first, which I see nothing wrong in that because I believe in family first, but can see why Socialism would not work here because of everyone being so independent.

Some people take In-dependency to the extreme though, as in anything else. I know of people who didnt care who they hurt or whose life they destroyed, as long as they got what they wanted. There are a lot of people like that out there.

Thanks again for giving me some food for thought!

Originally posted by kennylee
I really dont see where you are presenting the other side of the story.

You'd have to read the link.

why dont you fill me in on what you believe that socialism is.

It's not what I believe socialism is. It's what socialism is. And if you want to know that, may I suggest some research. I'm not a teacher and have neither the time or inclination to teach you about the world's economic and governing systems.

Originally posted by kennylee
And that is a very funny but accurate example of socialism...

And you would know, huh? As I said, most people who rail against socialism have no clue what it is and AREN'T WILLING TO EDUCATE THEMSELVES. The Internet is FULL of information for those who want the truth.

Have a nice thread.

. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work, because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work, because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is teh beginning of the end of any nation.

...................................and that is the whole idea - all it takes to make it work is to find enough stupid people to sign on to it or 'educate' enough people to buy it.

All in all, the white working class has had a raw deal. First, it escaped the frying pan of rural laboring only to land in the fire of the factory system. But it didn't give up. It organized its own social safety net, with labor unions, fraternal associations, and ethnic clubs, and was well on the way to making its factory fate bearable

when the Serpent turned up in the Garden of Eden, this time disguised as an educated progressive elite. You chaps are being screwed, said the Serpent. Why, if you vote for us, we will force the bosses to give you More. More unions, more wages, more health care. It seemed like a dream come true until the unionized steel industry collapsed, and then the unionized auto industry went into terminal decline, and corporations started moving their businesses to non-union states or even overseas.

Not to worry, said the educated elite. You policemen and firemen are getting screwed. Why, if you vote for us, we will force the taxpayers to give you More. More wages, more pensions, more health care. We will even help your schoolteacher and social-worker wives. It seemed like a dream come true until the money started to run out and taxpayers started objecting to government workers earning 50 percent more than private-sector workers.

Not to worry, said the educated elite. You health care consumers are getting screwed. Why, if you vote for us, we will force the insurance companies to insure pre-existing conditions, insure the uninsured, and lower overall health costs. It seemed like a dream come true, except that health insurance premiums are already skyrocketing, and ObamaCare hasn't even officially begun Read more: www.americanthinker.com...

reply to post by SG-17


Is it a coincidence though? I think states based on humansm have to be either small or brutal.

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood

All in all, the white working class has had a raw deal. First, it escaped the frying pan of rural laboring only to land in the fire of the factory system. But it didn't give up. It organized its own social safety net, with labor unions, fraternal associations, and ethnic clubs, and was well on the way to making its factory fate bearable

when the Serpent turned up in the Garden of Eden, this time disguised as an educated progressive elite. You chaps are being screwed, said the Serpent. Why, if you vote for us, we will force the bosses to give you More. More unions, more wages, more health care. It seemed like a dream come true until the unionized steel industry collapsed, and then the unionized auto industry went into terminal decline, and corporations started moving their businesses to non-union states or even overseas.

Not to worry, said the educated elite. You policemen and firemen are getting screwed. Why, if you vote for us, we will force the taxpayers to give you More. More wages, more pensions, more health care. We will even help your schoolteacher and social-worker wives. It seemed like a dream come true until the money started to run out and taxpayers started objecting to government workers earning 50 percent more than private-sector workers.

Not to worry, said the educated elite. You health care consumers are getting screwed. Why, if you vote for us, we will force the insurance companies to insure pre-existing conditions, insure the uninsured, and lower overall health costs. It seemed like a dream come true, except that health insurance premiums are already skyrocketing, and ObamaCare hasn't even officially begun Read more: www.americanthinker.com...

edit on 16-11-2011 by JohhnyBGood because: addition

Awesome excerpt. I think it says it all.

the problem is that americans are largely disgustingly unethical, uncompassionate, and inhumane. A discussion i was having with a friend of mine who is a psychologist....she was stating that in the 40's and 50's the ethical level of the US society was considered at a 7 out of 10, which was where people did the right thing generally because it was the right thing to do. Now, she said, the US ranks at 2 out of 10, which is where people only do the right thing because they are afraid of being caught.

Most americans i meet have very little character or integrity, and the children from each generation are just getting worse and worse. Everyone is just out for themselves, and they actually believe that this is the best way to be..." me and my family FIRST", not realizing that society works, prospers, or loses as a whole.

Many people have a problem with the welfare society, blaming the poor and "useless" for their situation, and not realizing that those poor are a direct result of the society we live in, as are their own attitudes of selfishness and uncaring. If you take that poor, obese, welfare, non working person or whoever you like to criticize, and they had instead been born and raised in, say, Japan, they would have been completely different, hard working, extremely ethical, socially conscious, and morally bound...oh, and disciplined.

Instead here, we have a poor majority with no respect for education, and supreme ethnocentricity with no understanding or consideration of other cultures, we have the "me first" attitude where people are so ready to screw anyone else in order to get ahead, we have no critical thinking taught in schools so our adults have no clue what is really going on in the world, and have no real values. And our "heroes" are rapstars and football pros, people whom we would like to emulate for their tough attitudes and conspicuous consumption. All at the same time that the working class and poor are manipulated into voting against their own best interest, and have no real education or care for history so they dont realize that they are making the same mistakes over and over, and living under a feudal system much like the ones they venerate their ancestors for breaking away from.

The only answer is true real education, and indeed true democracy can only really exist in an educated populace, but sadly the US has fallen far behind much of the world in education. The worst part is they dont even realize it!! They are among the most ignorant of western industrialized nations, and have fallen behind in all the great frontiers, quantum physics, alternative fuels, humanities and philosophies, and yet they think they are the smartest in the world! haha, ah well.

Its funny to me how the wealthy elite make the middle class look at each other and get angry about which of their fellow peons they think are getting more than they deserve. Its the "hey, your retirement/pay/healthcare is better than mine, thats not fair, you should get less" attitude, when in fact, the very people who direct you to those ideas, the news, the congressmen, etc are actually making off with 80% of the pie, while tricking you to squabble over the crumbs. You live in a system where you pay about 45% of all your income as taxes, have made no profit from the massive growth in GDP over the last 40 years (till now), get nothing back from your taxes (all other western industrialized nations get healthcare, education, and social safety nets...you get nothing), and you can do absolutely nothing about it, while the banks and wealthy elite gamble big, LOSE, and then get you to pay the bill.

At the same time, you (we, the american majority) seem so dumb to the issue, that instead of holding crooks responsible, we blame teachers, cops, postal workers who are middle class, and certainly not the lazy bum homeless welfare recipients that are the other target of rightwing scorn. Its like they have a dichotomy, on one hand they want to revile the poorer than they who they feel do nothing, and on the other they want to revile those with slightly more than they, who provide safety and education for their society. It seems like they want to blame everyone except themselves, and the true causes of all our crisis and woe, the masters of market who buy presidents, buy legislation, manipulate our democracy, and gamble away our futures.

I dont understand at this point, how ANYONE cannot realize that the root and primary problem of the US is the MIC with its massive wars for profit, and also the power that media and major corporations, all linked back to a very few mega wealthy familys, have over our government, our taxes, and our minds.

reply to post by pexx421

I dont understand at this point, how ANYONE cannot realize that the root and primary problem of the US is the MIC with its massive wars for profit,

I totally agree with you on this statement. America's War Machine is what is breaking this country, but nothing will ever be done about it because people cant come together in the middle on issues.

On topic, Capitalists and Socialists will always be on opposite sides of the aisle. I'm not a far right wing Capitalist, but I believe in the system if it is working like it should.

I will always think that you should work for what you get, but I also believe that make themselves wealthy on the backs of the poor and by bribery and other illicit means, should be held accountable for their actions. We need the Republic restored. Thats the only way out for America IMO.

And Ron Paul will do it, but they wont let him win, so what do we do?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Your story obviously points to supposed inequity, however, in reality, most professors have certain office hours and they usually tell the group on the first day of class what those hours are and that the students will be able to see the professor during those times, if they so choose. Usually they also have email, which they give the entire group. Tutoring is often left to work groups with a volunteer in an accessible area.

Originally posted by kennylee
I received this in my email the other day and wanted to share it with ATS. It shows just what the effects of Socialism has. It says....

You realize that you also get, on average, 30 advertisements a day to make your penis larger, right?

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

Two problems here.
1) Obama has no socialist programs
2) "Socialism" is spoken in modern Economics classes like "motherf-er" is spoken in kindergarten. They're prety much bastions of prescientific Friedmanite orthodoxy.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan".. All grade...s will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy.
When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

Could not be any simpler than that. END

This reminds me of a Chick tract

America was founded as a Republic and a Republic is what it should be restored to. It wasn't founded on Socialism and will never succeed as such IMO. I thought this email was a good example of just how it would work.

Okay, all you socialists, flame away....

What does a republic have to do with socialism?

One, I don't think you know what socialism is. The professor of economics in this fairy tale surely doesn't (like I said though, not terribly surprising given the modern state of economics studies in America - asking an economics professor to explain socialism is like asking a pentecostal minister to explain Hinduism). I also rather doubt you understand the idea of what a republic is, since you're conflating it with an economic system.

Given that you're basically grabbing your own ignorance and showing it off to everyone, I kind of dount also that you're even capable - much less willing - to learn the intricacies of these subjects. if I'm wrong, hey, feel free.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

One, I don't think you know what socialism is. The professor of economics in this fairy tale surely doesn't (like I said though, not terribly surprising given the modern state of economics studies in America - asking an economics professor to explain socialism is like asking a pentecostal minister to explain Hinduism). I also rather doubt you understand the idea of what a republic is, since you're conflating it with an economic system.

Given that you're basically grabbing your own ignorance and showing it off to everyone, I kind of dount also that you're even capable - much less willing - to learn the intricacies of these subjects. if I'm wrong, hey, feel free.

Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are commonly owned and controlled cooperatively; or a political philosophy advocating such a system, which means that everyone shares the wealth.

A republic is a form of government in which the people, or some significant portion of them, have supreme control over the government and where offices of state are elected or chosen by elected people. As you can see, the people have no control over the government anymore and so we do not have a Republic. And I believe that if we could get our Republic restored, it would help the economy because the people would have more say in the decisions that are made in DC. Does your brain comprehend this now, or would you like me to further explain the connection I see between restoring our Republic and the economy? Because I could go on in more depth if you really have to have me spell it out for you.

And I wouldn't be calling anyone ignorant if I couldn't make sure my words were spelled correctly. The only thing YOU are capable of is talking trash about people. You don't know me nor know how much education I have, so quit judging me your Holiness.

reply to post by kennylee


I work hard, for a good part of the year, 40 or more hours a week, we do have a slow down in business for a portion of the year, which is why I say "most of the year"..
if I didn't have a spouse helping out, and it was just me supporting myself, well....it wouldn't work!!!
again, I work hard, same industry for close to 10years, same company for the past 6!!
yes, I know, I could get out of working, everyone in my family has gotten out of working part of the last year...and still brought in more money than I do with their unemployment!!! But, well, I still go to work everyday, work my arse off, pay taxes on what I make, and part of that of taxmoney goes to helping the "poor", the "unemployed", the poor hungry starving, uninsured kids of parents that make more money than I do, not to mention, those multimillion dollar bankers and the companies that they work for!!!

know what is the best way to get rid of the socialist programs that are there to help the poor??? Pay the poor workers enough money that they don't qualify for the programs!!! charge rent that the poor can afford to pay, not the amount that the gov't is willing to pay for them!! ect.