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You had a bit of a boost, to start with, probably enough to think of a benevolent presence out there, and not to succumb to a feeling of hopelessness, as if there were demons who ruled the world and we were completely helpless to avoid their just beating us down.
. . . but for me personally, I've always believed
in and felt the presence of God in my life.
Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) did not cut my umbilical cord from my mother.
Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) did not help me tie my shoes.
Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) did not pick me up after school everyday when I was a kid.
Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) did not get me my first job.
Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) did not get me my first car.
Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) did not make me fall in love with a girl who accepts the way I feel.
Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) will not pay for my college tuition.
Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) will not get me a job at a major corporation.
Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) will not get me married.
Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) will not kill my mother when she grows old.
Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) will not give me a son nor daughter to raise.
Originally posted by mr10k
God(s) will not kill me nor my wife when I grow too old.
Originally posted by mr10k
Let me tell you what God(s) is/are apparently responsible for:
God(s) apparently killed my father when he was shot and robbed on the street.
God(s) apparently killed about half of my family in Jamaica due to violence and corruption.
Originally posted by mr10k
I believe in an omnipresent force that created everything.
I do not believe that that same force is conscious in any way.
Originally posted by mr10k
My life was given to me by my mother and father. It is my life now. I make it. I am responsible for everything that happens in it. So are you. You are responsible for everything in your life. It is both yours and my fault that everything is happening the way it is.
No, that is not automatically true just because you say so. There is a void, an emptiness, a nothingness, an abyss, something completely beyond your comprehension. This was the state of things when there was no universe. Now if there was this complete lack of anything, from what or where did this consciousness come? You don't know because you can't. It is something beyond description. For you to say it is a consciousness, you are just projecting yourself onto whatever caused the universe to come into existence, while at the same time being completely wrong because it is impossible for you to be right.
On the one hand you say that a “force” created everything, but that this force is not conscious. In order for “something” to create “something”, it is a prerequisite, that that “something” be conscious, in order to be able to create.
What this could-be-but-was-not had was a fate which was a part of it, that caused it, once it came into existence, to be a certain way, so there was no need for consciousness, only this fate.
If the “something” were not conscious, then that would suggest that everything just happened by chance. So the use of the phrase “it was created”, wouldn’t even come into play.
Originally posted by Joecroft
On the one hand you say that a “force” created everything, but that this force is not conscious. In order for “something” to create “something”, it is a prerequisite, that that “something” be conscious, in order to be able to create.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
No, that is not automatically true just because you say so. There is a void, an emptiness, a nothingness, an abyss, something completely beyond your comprehension. This was the state of things when there was no universe.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
Now if there was this complete lack of anything, from what or where did this consciousness come? You don't know because you can't.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
It is something beyond description. For you to say it is a consciousness, you are just projecting yourself onto whatever caused the universe to come into existence, while at the same time being completely wrong because it is impossible for you to be right.
That's probably what I meant.
Not really sure why you are saying it is beyond my comprehension, maybe you meant to say instead, “beyond our comprehension”,
I'm not saying God created the universe. Gods had a hand in development of the universe once it came into existence, I believe.
God may have created the universe out of an empty one, but that’s a completely different argument…and is beside the point…
I do but I don't want to assign roles to God which don't apply. I think of God as a divine judge. He reads the laws of the universe, meaning the way things are, as determined by the nature of the existence of the universe. If we say God created the universe, then we make god to be evil because it is flawed, or at least not what we would think of as a universe a loving God would make. My solution to the Problem of Evil is to say the coming into existence of the universe was something that happened and was not under the control of God that it did in the way that it occurred.
Anyway…I thought you believed in God as well, based on your past posts on ATS…perhaps I was mistaken…
Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by jmdewey60
Originally posted by Joecroft
On the one hand you say that a “force” created everything, but that this force is not conscious. In order for “something” to create “something”, it is a prerequisite, that that “something” be conscious, in order to be able to create.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
No, that is not automatically true just because you say so. There is a void, an emptiness, a nothingness, an abyss, something completely beyond your comprehension. This was the state of things when there was no universe.
Not really sure why you are saying it is beyond my comprehension, maybe you meant to say instead, “beyond our comprehension”, especially in regards to the mechanics involved in the early beginnings of our universe, which no one can really comprehend.
As for describing the nothingness and emptiness etc… as being the state of things when there was no universe…I don’t believe that, because I believe God always existed and created everything…
God may have created the universe out of an empty one, but that’s a completely different argument…and is beside the point…
Anyway…I thought you believed in God as well, based on your past posts on ATS…perhaps I was mistaken…
Originally posted by jmdewey60
Now if there was this complete lack of anything, from what or where did this consciousness come? You don't know because you can't.
I don’t believe there was a complete lack of anything, that’s my entire point that I’m trying to make to the OP…because I believe in a God, who has an eternal existence.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
It is something beyond description. For you to say it is a consciousness, you are just projecting yourself onto whatever caused the universe to come into existence, while at the same time being completely wrong because it is impossible for you to be right.
I think you may need to re-read my reply to the OP again…I never said it was “consciousness” that did it. I was simply pointing out that a creator, would in all likelihood, have to be a conscious being, in order to create something.
- JC
Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by jmdewey60
Originally posted by Joecroft
On the one hand you say that a “force” created everything, but that this force is not conscious. In order for “something” to create “something”, it is a prerequisite, that that “something” be conscious, in order to be able to create.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
No, that is not automatically true just because you say so. There is a void, an emptiness, a nothingness, an abyss, something completely beyond your comprehension. This was the state of things when there was no universe.
Not really sure why you are saying it is beyond my comprehension, maybe you meant to say instead, “beyond our comprehension”, especially in regards to the mechanics involved in the early beginnings of our universe, which no one can really comprehend.
As for describing the nothingness and emptiness etc… as being the state of things when there was no universe…I don’t believe that, because I believe God always existed and created everything…
God may have created the universe out of an empty one, but that’s a completely different argument…and is beside the point…
Anyway…I thought you believed in God as well, based on your past posts on ATS…perhaps I was mistaken…
Originally posted by jmdewey60
Now if there was this complete lack of anything, from what or where did this consciousness come? You don't know because you can't.
I don’t believe there was a complete lack of anything, that’s my entire point that I’m trying to make to the OP…because I believe in a God, who has an eternal existence.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
It is something beyond description. For you to say it is a consciousness, you are just projecting yourself onto whatever caused the universe to come into existence, while at the same time being completely wrong because it is impossible for you to be right.
I think you may need to re-read my reply to the OP again…I never said it was “consciousness” that did it. I was simply pointing out that a creator, would in all likelihood, have to be a conscious being, in order to create something.
- JC
Originally posted by jmdewey60
I do but I don't want to assign roles to God which don't apply. I think of God as a divine judge. He reads the laws of the universe, meaning the way things are, as determined by the nature of the existence of the universe.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
If we say God created the universe, then we make god to be evil because it is flawed, or at least not what we would think of as a universe a loving God would make.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
My solution to the Problem of Evil is to say the coming into existence of the universe was something that happened and was not under the control of God that it did in the way that it occurred.
Originally posted by mr10k
See, I cannot debate against you nor you to me. You believe God always existed and everything is ultimately caused by God. I don't believe in a conscious God. I don't believe in a being that causes anything.
Originally posted by mr10k
To argue against your logic would be childish and foolish because I cannot debate against faith.
Originally posted by mr10k
You have your beliefs. This is why I do not like others pushing their Christian logic onto me because "If I am not in the house how can I argue about the door?" How do you suppose I would argue against something I don't even believe? It's like asking me to tell you why I don't believe Unicorns rule the world. I don't believe it exists.
Originally posted by mr10k
I believe that "God" isn't some conscious being. Instead I believe it was a catalyst. An element, a sound, etc whatever it was that caused all of this to come into being. Fire does not have to be conscious to create flames.
The good and evil is in what the universe is. In one place you have new stars forming, in another place you have old stars dying. The world is the same way on a smaller scale. God had to do nothing for good and evil to exist. The divine judges determines what is good and what is evil at a particular moment for a particular person. Even the gods do not have free will. This is a non-free will universe. Even the the universe itself has no free will because it is still under the influence of the cosmic serpent that formed as part of the universe's creation. Everyone is forced to make choices because that necessity is built into the nature of the universe.
You say you “think of God as the divine judge”, but in order for God to Judge; both Good and Evil must exist. Both exist, because God has given people free will, so that they can make a choice…etc…
Good people dying young and evil people thriving. The whole ecosystem living by killing other beings. Disease famine pestilence murder war robbery, you never noticed any of these things?
I see. I don’t really see the universe as being evil in itself, maybe you could give me an example, to explain how you see it that way.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
The good and evil is in what the universe is. In one place you have new stars forming, in another place you have old stars dying. The world is the same way on a smaller scale. God had to do nothing for good and evil to exist. The divine judges determines what is good and what is evil at a particular moment for a particular person. Even the gods do not have free will. This is a non-free will universe. Even the the universe itself has no free will because it is still under the influence of the cosmic serpent that formed as part of the universe's creation. Everyone is forced to make choices because that necessity is built into the nature of the universe.
Originally posted by Joecroft
I see. I don’t really see the universe as being evil in itself, maybe you could give me an example, to explain how you see it that way.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
Good people dying young and evil people thriving. The whole ecosystem living by killing other beings. Disease famine pestilence murder war robbery, you never noticed any of these things?
Right.
Cosmic Serpent ?
You can go to the Wikipedia article on "The Problem of Evil", if you do not already know what I am talking about. It is a very ancient question that goes back to the Greek philosophers. It is not something I created to think about. If you want a nice quick course, go onto the jrandi religion and philosophy forum and make a post saying you think the universe is just fine. The members will be very accommodating to straighten you out on that. This is how I learned about "The Problem". What I was saying is that I had a defense for God that I learned from my church which was that: "God could not kill Satan outright because as far as the inhabitants of the universe were concerned, the person we think of as Satan is God. So the invisible God, who had this visible God as a front man, has to wait until it becomes very obvious to everyone that he fully deserves to be killed."
. . . but your argument was, that because evil exists, that God could not have created this universe.
Right, the gods placed us on this planet once it was in the condition where we could survive on it. None of that means the A God created the universe. The gods are a lot like us, that is why you have things like the Bible saying we were made in God's image. In the OT, YHWH is a normal seeming man that you could meet and invite into your house and share a meal with.
In fact, God has been trying to help mankind from the very beginning . . .
Death is real and I do not like people who trivialize it. Have you ever died or do you know someone personally who has and has come back from the dead? Have you ever read in the Bible about the "pains of death"? Death is a horrible, bad, evil thing and you should not take it lightly, that is a big mistake. Read the Psalms of David and about the deliverer, and think about why such things are in the Bible. We should be gods and live forever. It is not natural for us to die.
As for people dying young etc…if you truly believe in Jesus words, when he talks about man having a spirit and a body in which his spirit/soul dwells, then in the grand scheme of things, death is not the end. And there is a much bigger picture to it all, which needs to be carefully considered.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
Right, the gods placed us on this planet once it was in the condition where we could survive on it. None of that means the A God created the universe. The gods are a lot like us, that is why you have things like the Bible saying we were made in God's image. In the OT, YHWH is a normal seeming man that you could meet and invite into your house and share a meal with.
Originally posted by Joecroft
. . . but your argument was, that because evil exists, that God could not have created this universe.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
You can go to the Wikipedia article on "The Problem of Evil", if you do not already know what I am talking about. It is a very ancient question that goes back to the Greek philosophers. It is not something I created to think about. If you want a nice quick course, go onto the jrandi religion and philosophy forum and make a post saying you think the universe is just fine. The members will be very accommodating to straighten you out on that.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
Death is real and I do not like people who trivialize it. Have you ever died or do you know someone personally who has and has come back from the dead? Have you ever read in the Bible about the "pains of death"? Death is a horrible, bad, evil thing and you should not take it lightly, that is a big mistake. Read the Psalms of David and about the deliverer, and think about why such things are in the Bible. We should be gods and live forever. It is not natural for us to die.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-2
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens: a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot,
I don't know where you find a consensus on if you take that as figurative. I don't see where it would indicate in the text that it should be taken as anything but literal.
Well, there is the passage in Genesis where YHWH is described as walking in the Garden of Eden, but this is generally regarded as being meant in a figurative sense, and is not meant to mean that God literally walked around in the Garden.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
I don't know where you find a consensus on if you take that as figurative. I don't see where it would indicate in the text that it should be taken as anything but literal.
The best example of what I was talking about is Abraham was living near a grove and he was sitting outside the entrance to his tent in the hot part of the day and looked up to see YHWH. YHWH and two traveling companions were on their way to Sodom to see if it was as really evil as it had been reported. Abraham asked YHWH to stop for a while to eat a nice meal with him, and YHWH did. I don't see how you can take that as being "figurative".
Originally posted by jmdewey60
Another story is Gideon, again staying at a grove, was holding a conversation with YHWH when a man appeared to tell Gideon a message. When the man left, YHWH asked Gideon what that was all about. Gideon told YHWH that it was the prophet of God, giving him the word of God. So, obviously YHWH is not God, and is only indirectly connected to God.