Do Desires cause Suffering?

reply to post by Radekus


Plenty of people out there live their lives without sex, and are perfectly OK with it. But it has to be decided for yourself, and absolutely.

At this point in my life, I am one of those, I haven't decided it will be a lifelong thing though, I just decided that other goals in my life are more important than women right now.

Monks decide their goal of enlightenment is above all others. Priests and nuns decide dedicating their lives to studying god's word is more important(not the fake priests who just went in to have easy access to little alter boys obviously).

Originally posted by britelite1971
reply to post by blazenresearcher

 

Desires can cause suffering if we make bad choices because of them. Think about it....the desire for money could end someone up in jail if they go about obtaining money illegally. Or sexual desires sometimes cause the breakup of families and divorce. It may cause suffering to the children in that family or the spouse in the relationship. Sometimes it may cause the suffering of the spouse that gave in to their desire to cheat. Really when you think about it, sometimes we inflict suffering upon ourselves because of our own poor decisions and sometimes others inflict it upon us because of their poor decisions/desires. The main thing to realize is that we are responsible for our decision and to minimize the suffering that we cause to ourselves and others. When suffering is unwittingly inflicted upon us, even though we don't deserve it, we can choose how we are going to deal with it. Wow! What a depressing subject! I hate suffering!

No...That is a great answer! I hate suffering too! That is why I'm always in search! You know and understand...now just raise your vibration....as I am working on. :-)

Desires themselves do not cause suffering.

The cause of suffering is attachment. The cause of attachment is desire or clinging. The cause of desire or clinging is ignorance.

Therefore suffering results from ignorance. Ignorance produces attachment or clinging to various impermanent things (such as desires) and when these things come to an end, we experience loss and therefore suffer. To eliminate ignorance one must contemplate the true nature of things without clinging to any view about them.

reply to post by Q:1984A:1776


We are born into this world under the delusion that we can somehow make things concrete. Just get plenty of money in your bank account, raise a family, get a nice car, a big house, rise up the company ladder, and in the end you'll find happiness by surrounding yourself with stuff.

But the very nature of stuff is impermanence. Nothing ever remains the same, no matter how much we try or hope that it does. Money runs out, kids go to college, marriages break up, cars break down, houses fall apart, and even that job you have won't last forever. The company may go bankrupt, you may get fired.

So what causes suffering? What brings us pain? Hold your breath. Really hold it in. You will find that the longer you hold it in, the more it hurts.

The very teaching of the Buddha Dharma shows that instead of holding in your breath, simply let it go. There you will find bliss.

You say "unfulfilled desires can also motivate you to become better." Motivation through desire is an oxymoron. Let's say you have a desire to write a novel. You may write the novel of your dreams, but you may not. What happens if your expectations don't match up with the actual result of your efforts? You become disappointed. You become angry at yourself, jealous of others who also write novels, sad that you doubt your own abilities.

This is suffering.

This isn't to say that you shouldn't have hopes, dreams, aspirations. Far from it. These are the foundations of many wonderful things that humans have created. But when you stop becoming attached to things or to people, and have unnatural expectations, when what you want doesn't come like you wanted it to, then you won't have to worry, as you didn't expect any particular outcome. Rarely do things happen the way we want them to, but in giving up desire, we enjoy what we have now and expect nothing more.

Listened to the clip, it's a bunch of propaganda that takes a simple concept and complicates it
in order to blame you for your own situation. "it's because of your vibration", pffft, hahahaha,
spoken like a true spoiled upper class ignoramus.

New Age = Business

it's a money making scam.

reply to post by TKDRL


You are a victim of your own situation.
You have merely accepted your situation,
justify it how you want, the truth is that
you have abandoned an unattainable goal and hence
decided to focus on other needs.
Probably a career, hoping that once you have achieved
financial stability and abundance the unattainable goal
of marriage becomes a reality, because it is what you were led
to expect from life, am I getting warm?

reply to post by blazenresearcher


Thanks! Believe me, christian or not, we all have had penty of issues in our life and have made bad decisions. I've had plenty of my own! I always hoped as a christian that God would just fix things for me and I wouldn't have to suffer or deal with the consequences, but the truth is that all of us generally have to clean up our own messes. It really sucks when suffering is brought on us unexpectedly, but I also think that the "Awww Crap!....I really screwed up this time!" feeling sucks alot too!

reply to post by Seventhdoor


Humans are too short lived a species to harness enough experience
so as to eliminate all personal suffering.
Keep in mind, with no needs, there are no goals, without goals,
stagnation, and guess what follows, anomie.
Needs are both our destroyer and our creator.
It is what propels deviant behavior as well as ingenuity.
A thing to think about.

reply to post by Radekus


I have an uttainable goal of marriage? No, I don't really believe in marriage, what's the point really? Knowledge, self understanding, self expression are more important to me than getting laid, or dating right now. It's not because I cannot get laid, or get dates and just gave up. I don't have that deep belief that I noticed some people have, that they need someone else to be complete, or be happy. I have more of an opposite belief, that you need to be happy and complete on your own, before you can really be happy in a relationship.

reply to post by TKDRL


Follow your bliss.

reply to post by TKDRL


Marriage isn't about getting laid and dating, that's a playboy's life.

Marriage is a commitment, a bond between two people, for better or ill.

Don't mix being a playboy with being married, these two are totally different.

You pretty much agree with my statement.
You need to create your own before you can be happy in a relationship.
Hence why I mentioned career, it is a manifestation of personal achievement,
and economic stability. Build the foundations before you can build a family,
don't jump into the lion's den blindfolded and ill prepared.
Whenever you achieve personal sustainability, that void of yours will not
be filled with material things.

Originally posted by Radekus
reply to post by Seventhdoor

 

Humans are too short lived a species to harness enough experience
so as to eliminate all personal suffering.
Keep in mind, with no needs, there are no goals, without goals,
stagnation, and guess what follows, anomie.
Needs are both our destroyer and our creator.
It is what propels deviant behavior as well as ingenuity.
A thing to think about.

Not true. Many people have eliminated personal suffering within their lives, many have done it by middle age. Buddha did this, and he was 35.

You are confusing needs, goals, and having desires with attachment to them. You can have all these things without attachment.

Needs are what you can't go without unless you want your body to die. But you can feed your body food without attachment to food. You can give your body shelter without attachment to having a home. You can give your body water without attachment to drinking.

Attachment is clinging, if you cling then you have no home, suddenly your life is miserable. If you are unattached you won't care, you'll just do whatever you need to do to find shelter or rebuild your life, and you'll do it joyously even.

Goals and desires can also exist without clinging. One can have sex for example without attachment. One simply does it then lets it be. One does not suffer without sex, or feel unfulfilled if they don't orgasm every day. It doesn't bother them, they have achieved non attachment to the idea of having sex.

If you don't have that non attachment, then sex becomes important. Suddenly you feel you have to have it. You seek it from anyone. You sleep with people you don't care about. You masturbate daily seeking to fulfill this desire. But it can't be fulfilled, because the moment its complete its gone, then its only a matter of time before it arises again. So one learns to live non attached, and then one is free from the suffering of not having sex.

This is just one example. Such a person will still be fully capable of having the desire to have sex, of feeling attraction, and of having sex, yet if they go a year without it, its no big deal.

Simply put, suffering results from holding onto something that will die. Its the idea that we own an object which is perishable, when ownership would really mean we have complete control over it. We don't your computer will die someday. Its the idea that a loved one will ALWAYS be here, thats a delusion and leads to suffering. Recognizing this as the case, we cherish the time we have with them and let them go when its time for them to go. Otherwise we end up a mess.

reply to post by ManjushriPrajna


Very eloquently put my friend. I can't say that I disagree with anything that you had to say. I personally, try to live my life according to a philosophy very similar to that which is suggested by the eight fold path. However, I believe that desire leads to social evolution. Without desire we would not continue to grow technologically. Perhaps a better word to use would be attachment. To me, the word desire is synonymous with ambition. Fear of loss is the only destructive part of desire. I think that we only disagree on the definition of the word we are discussing.

Originally posted by Seventhdoor
You are confusing needs, goals, and having desires with attachment to them. You can have all these things without attachment.

I am merely contextualizing our present day societal situation where our basic needs have become goals within themselves, why else do we work? To feed ourselves, to provide shelter. Our needs have become our goals, via force, this in itself causes personal suffering as we are limited to mindless laboring without the ability to express our individuality in creative fashion. Long ago, this collective creativity was known throughout the world as culture.

Needs are what you can't go without unless you want your body to die. But you can feed your body food without attachment to food. You can give your body shelter without attachment to having a home. You can give your body water without attachment to drinking.

I agree.

Attachment is clinging, if you cling then you have no home, suddenly your life is miserable. If you are unattached you won't care, you'll just do whatever you need to do to find shelter or rebuild your life, and you'll do it joyously even.

I'm sorry, but most people are Humans, not emotionless Cyborgs.
I'm no beast either that merely seeks to live in the now without careful consideration of the future.
A beast that merely seeks to satisfy its present needs, regardless of everything around it.

Goals and desires can also exist without clinging. One can have sex for example without attachment. One simply does it then lets it be. One does not suffer without sex, or feel unfulfilled if they don't orgasm every day. It doesn't bother them, they have achieved non attachment to the idea of having sex.

If you are unattached to the person you make love to then you are nothing short of an animal.
In the example of sex:
goals and desires are characteristic of the present,
attachment is a representation of a cognitive being who plans a future.

If you don't have that non attachment, then sex becomes important. Suddenly you feel you have to have it. You seek it from anyone. You sleep with people you don't care about. You masturbate daily seeking to fulfill this desire. But it can't be fulfilled, because the moment its complete its gone, then its only a matter of time before it arises again. So one learns to live non attached, and then one is free from the suffering of not having sex.

This is why people should feel attached to one another as opposed to behaviors.

This is just one example. Such a person will still be fully capable of having the desire to have sex, of feeling attracting, and of having sex, yet if they go a year without it, its no big deal.

You can still be attached to the idea of having a family of your own.
Besides, sex is a subconscious biological need, you cannot reason it away.
You can control your behaviors, but not your emotions.
This doesn't mean that you should make sex an item of worship either.
Choose your addiction, some people choose sex, other gambling, others yet drinking.
Normal people choose the addiction of being perfect mates, friends, parents and teachers.

Simply put, suffering results from holding onto something that will die. Its the idea that we own an object which is perishable, when ownership would really mean we have complete control over it. We don't your computer will die someday. Its the idea that a loved one will ALWAYS be here, thats a delusion and leads to suffering. Recognizing this as the case, we cherish the time we have with them and let them go when its time for them to go. Otherwise we end up a mess.

In the modern day era, there are such things as being a victim to reality, which you cannot do anything about, hence accepting natural things as are (death of a loved one as an example),
there is also a novelty, imposed reality, such as socio-economic slavery,
how fulfilling basic needs became the reason of living itself.

reply to post by Radekus


Well, it may be possible to get married, without first dating to see if you are personally compatible, and seeing if you are sexually compatible, it's not really the normal situation.

I have not heard of many people outside of prearranged marriage, that haven't at least dated before they got married. If I got married, it wouldn't be before I knew we were maximum compatible, I never even move in with someone before I know that much.

reply to post by TKDRL


You'd be surprised how quickly people decide to settle down and quit
playing relationship games when they graduate University
and realize that they're not getting any younger.

The 12 link chain of the 2nd Noble Truth.

1. Suffering depends on birth
2. Birth depends on existence
3. Existence depends on attachment
4. Atachment depends on desire
5. Desire depends on sensation
6. Sensation depends on sense organs
7. Sense organs depend on name and form
9. Name and form depends on consciousness
10. Consciousness depends on karma
11. Karma depends on ignorance.

To end suffering is to end desire and follow the eight-fold path.

1. Views
2. Intent
3. Speech
4. Conduct
5. Lively hood
6. Effort
7. Mindfulness
8. Concentration.

Basic Buddhist teachings.

However, I think people misconstrue the definitions and what it means "to desire" (the verb) and desire as a from of being (the noun). The latter is about an unsatisfaction that comes from the fear losing what you have or can have. (attachment) . But "to desire" (verb), or to want, is something that if you were to get rid of, there would be no preference, no flavor, just a bunch of dull indifferent nothing to value. - which might be liberating for some, but if you are not under extreme recluse terms, not wanting anything, is closer to self deception than anything.

reply to post by juveous


Excellent rendition! I have to add a bit to what you are speaking of though. Without desire, even Siddhartha would not have accomplished is insightful philosophy. He *desired* to understand what caused suffering. He *desired* to free others from a cycle of misery as he saw it. You can't have motivation without desire. Obviously he wasn't talking about ambition. The word desire needs to be more correctly defined.
Personally, I think that he was talking about greed. Greed leads to attachment, desire leads to accomplishment. The trick is to be satisfied with the process, not the results, and certainly not to cling to your accomplishments, as everything is ephemeral, even the philosophy of Buddhism. One day the sun will die, and everything that we have worked for, as a species, as a collective, will perish. I personally, would like to see our species grow to a point that we may reach to the stars, and continue our efforts to understand and become better, even beyond the end of our life-support system. Is that desire, is that attachment, or is it a positive ambition that extends our basic desires as a species? I think that anything less is defeatism. Without desire, you will cease to exist.

reply to post by blazenresearcher


I have a theory on suffering. Suffering is the point of life, not desire. Desire causes suffering if we choose to desire something we should not take. Desire is the cause of reward if we choose the suffering first. This is giving instead of taking.

Here is an example. If we take a reward like a cigarette, we are causing a debt. Why? We are taking something that was not earned and is not necessary to benefit us or others. Taking represents the opposite of giving. When we smoke, we get cancer. When we drink alcohol, we create a similar debt. Drugs are the same. Theft is the same. Taking reward leads to suffering.

Now flip this the other direction. If we choose to suffer, reward follows. If we suffer work, we receive reward. If we suffer a car payment, we get transportation. Suffer an education and get a job. Suffer exercise and get health. Suffer raw foods and get a healthy appearance. Suffering always leads to reward.

Suffering is then in the middle of a desire to gratify self or a desire to gain earned reward. Reward that is earned then extends to everyone we love. Reward we take causes us and others to suffer. No matter what example you examine, suffering comes as the result or is the action that leads to the true reward. Live your life with suffering as the desire and reward follows. Live your life with reward as the desire and suffering follows.

This is the secret to living life well. Live to suffer for others. Consider yourself one of the others.

Compare this to Jesus teachings. You will find love is the answer that Jesus proclaimed.

1 Corinthians 13 gives the definition.

reply to post by blazenresearcher


Life is a manifestation... All that you manifest by wanting something is just that. The want of having that thing and the experience of not having that thing...