Secret organizations opposing an Illuminati-like group?

I'm currently under the impression that the Illuminati does still exist and their agenda is to basically establish an Orwellian society. Their goal is to speed up human evolution. They have been hoarding an enormous amount of wealth so that the people keep fighting among each other over natural resources that could easily be shared throughout the population if the Illuminati weren't preventing it. The next step seems to be the ultimate psychological torture for their subjects. Each individual would have specific experiments done on them that would be certain to challenge them in the greatest degree possible. The real objective is to "toughen up" humanity and evolve into more god-like beings. I really do somewhat believe this considering its basically what happened in Nazi Germany... I doubt the Germans just threw all that research in the trash can.

That aside, I'm curious of how many secret societies are known as a fact to exist. A lot of people believe several of our Founding Fathers were secretly working against the early Americans as Freemasons and that these people that want to destroy our freedom are still in control of everything. I guess you can question the motives of some of the forefathers, but there's no doubt that the colonists who fought the Revolutionary War were genuinely passionate about the mere concept of liberty. Wouldn't it make sense that the "good guys" started their own secret society to oversee the progress of their new democracy?

Maybe Freemasonry is a trojan horse of communism or whatever. But isn't it rational to think that there are loads of secret societies and that several of them have obtained a considerable amount of power and that at least a few are working to liberate the masses?

reply to post by BirdOfillOmen


It would be cool if another secret society was fighting against the Illuminati. Maybe some sects of the Illuminati have broken off and are fighting against the dark cabal. Sounds like a cool movie to me

I've often wondered this myself...
Ying for the Yang so to speak.
Logically there has to be a counter group right? The problem is figuring out who it is which would be next to impossible simply because the true purpose of many of these groups are known to very few at the top...
So initially while a group may seem to espouse certain values - their true intentions are very very hard to discern.
But there has to be...good luck figuring out who's on which side though...

reply to post by BirdOfillOmen

There are several reports that the elites are not a single group.

An earlier report of this came from Gunther Russbacher, who has been out of the picture since about 1996.

More recent reports along this line are from Duncan O'Finioan.

I don't pay much attention to the talk about the Freemasons. The great majority of Freemasons have no idea what's going on. Bloodlines keep getting mentioned, and this seems to be a very important factor. If you want first-hand data, read the abduction stories. They are full of all this stuff.

Beyond that, there is very little reliable information available on this subject. Unless you are an advanced being, you would probably have a hard time getting any certainty on what the real truth is.

We KNOW that in the past bankers have played both sides of major international conflicts and then created false rumors that allowed them to achieve enormous profits while most suffered. If people like this are being actively restrained by another group, then I hate to think of what life here would be like if that restraint were removed.

Here's a link to a theory according to which there are multiple Alien groups fighting for control behind various factions of the human or hybrid Illuminati Elite:


Aliens Behind World Government


I am not a proponent of such theories but find that their study might help enlighten your analysis whatever your conclusions.


Getsmart

Originally posted by BirdOfillOmen
That aside, I'm curious of how many secret societies are known as a fact to exist. A lot of people believe several of our Founding Fathers were secretly working against the early Americans as Freemasons and that these people that want to destroy our freedom are still in control of everything.

That many of our founding father's were Freemasons is no secret. However I'd like to know who is stating that Freemasons were working against the "Americans", or against "Freedom"? Freemasonry and it's philosophy and values are what the very "freedoms" Americans hold dear are based on. Masonry's main goal as it matured was to free people from the Tyranny of the very Abusive Church of the middle ages, as well as to promote Government based on the Rights of the Individual instead of monarchy. Before masonry espoused the values of all men being equal, or that all men should have a say in government it was all but unheard of in Europe. Likewise when America started there was NO plans for freedom of religion. Each state had it's own state religion. It was even codified into law in Virginia for example that any Methodist or Baptist was to be publicly whipped for preaching, as only the Church of England Was recognized, likewise Maryland was the Anglican Church, Catholics were abused there, and Rhode Island was founded for the purpose of escaping such abuses in Massachusetts. Masonry was the society for religious dissidents under the Roman Church in Europe....almost every protestant denomination had members as it was a society that would give them refuge. There is no Organization in the world for the past 1,000 plus years that has risked more, or dedicated itself more to fighting Tyranny, and defending the individual from Tyrants.

Originally posted by BirdOfillOmen
Wouldn't it make sense that the "good guys" started their own secret society to oversee the progress of their new democracy?

They did and their society was formed long before America was colonized.....it was Ancient Freemasonry.

Originally posted by BirdOfillOmen
Maybe Freemasonry is a trojan horse of communism or whatever. But isn't it rational to think that there are loads of secret societies and that several of them have obtained a considerable amount of power and that at least a few are working to liberate the masses?]

It's better then rational, it's certain. I highly recommend the books by John J. Robinson, and Steven C Bullock if you really want to know the truth about Masonry when it was still politically "active". Freemasonry has always and always will oppose Tyranny, wether it's Monarchist despots, Theocratic Tyrants like the Roman Church of the Inquisition days, Communism, Fascism. There's a reason why everyone of those groups actively purged masons, and attacked and killed them in mass. As to the Illuminati's heirs.....they're as easy to find as any history book, and in plain sight....just follow the philosophy.

Here comes a pearl, take it or leave it:

As for actively being against the "Illuminati" it depends on how you define Illuminati...most here in this foum use it as blanket statement to cover ALL groups who have secretly met to organize changes in power, when in reality there have been many many such organizations, some for good, some for bad, and more for self serving reasons. Illuminati on the ATS forum has become a catch all term, instead of meaning a specific group, more often then not it is used to describe the mythological Steve Jackson game's organization, less often is it the ACTUAL Illuminati as they truly existed.....So they take groups of stark contrasting philosophies and lump them all together with real and mythological organizations, put a Steve Jackson’s eye in a pyramid seal of Illuminati approval and present it as a valid conspiracy......You could get as good a theory by making a computer like in the infamous story of, Umberto Eco’s “Foucault's Pendulum” just put in random names esoteric symbols in a database, and hit “blend” and people will believe whatever the random out put, and chalk up the inconstancies to “Mysteries” .

The actual Historical "Illuminati" as in Adam Weishaupt's creation is doubtfully behind much of anything today, although there are newer groups that probably share its core philosophy. So one could argue by virtue of common hatreds, vices, and narcissistic power dream, they are his philosophical heirs. Weishaupt started from a Jesuit background and I personally believe that is the most important aspect of understanding him. Everyone focuses on the group he created, few seem to focus on the education, and values that molded him. He likely was well versed on Freemasons as the Jesuits had been the primary tool for attacking Masonic lodges and any other church dissident group where the old Dominican Order tactics were not allowed (such as England). I have little doubt he knew more than a little bit about them from the perspective of the Jesuits, (i.e from an enemies point of view) and thus would have had a working knowledge of their structure, and organizational model. The Jesuits were often used as a sort of Catholic intelligence/assassination service, I would compare them to a "Catholic KGB" in the early days of the protestant explosion in Europe they were VERY active in that capacity. They were brutal in their tactics, used assassination, torture, slander and any other such method that served their purpose. They even tried to blow up Parliament. "Guy Fawkes Night" ring a bell? Perhaps they should have studied their adversaries TRUE history as well, for they too like the Templars before them became an inconvenient tool and became outlawed by the very papacy they had thought they were defending for a time.....( delicious irony)..., it was after that period that Weishaupt created his Illuminati, now with a fresh deep hatred for the Church that only a scorned lover can understand he forms his plans for revenge.

His plan was to exploit the masons, and change their goals to his. After all both found themselves at odds with the Church of Rome, both would be persecuted by the Church, and the masons already had active network many centuries old. So the common hatred for the tyranny in Rome would serve as a way to graft his organization to theirs. However while they enjoyed brief success locally in Germany, he was very unsuccessful once he attempted to go abroad. His ideals were so radical, that even among radicals they were considered too extreme. In many ways his ideals was the fore runner to Communism, or perhaps more the forerunner of the corrupt Communism as it existed, vs the ideal. His desire was to overturn all religions and current states, and create a communal system across Europe, that was in fact controlled by a small elite......He and Stalin would have been pals. The USSR, and even the KGB would have been his hearts desire.

Freemasonry had for much longer had wished to end the "secular" reign of the Roman Church, and eventually would embrace natural law, and the Greek ideals of Republicanism, but it did not wish to destroy all religion, nor replace the current Tyrannies with a "new" one. In other words to take one tyrant down just to replace it with another, did not coincide with Masonic ideals on individualism. Freemasonry was not the invention of one man or even a group of elite, but rather many widely varying ideals that shared a common cause of survival, and mutual defense from oppression. This is whyit has always forbidden debate of religion within the lodge, and embraced men of different creeds. The organization as it grew wished to bring forth representational governments, and freedom of religions, and to separate church and state, but not to END the church, rather to reform it. To return it to a “pure” theological state, and to allow various churches so that men might choose how they worshipped. For this reason the ideals of masonry, made it the natural distillation society for many many many Protestant movements. An ironic bit as many of those same denominations today now attack Masonry like the Dominicans and Jesuits did them, when Masonry shielded them in their infancy. In any case unlucky for Weishaupt, Marxism, and those that would share his ideals of a totalitarian state economy, and faith directed by a secular elite……did not yet exist.

People who love conspiracies like to link peoples, symbols which they find mysterious, but are too lazy to research, number or colors, but very seldom do they tend to follow and research the actual philosophies. There are certain world views that have been held by both rulers who outlawed opposing philosophies, and been held by the secret societies when the opposing views gained control and forced them underground….and this has been going on literally forever…..”there is nothing new under the sun” or in current pop culture "All this has happened before, and all this will happen again."...and of course there is not simply a "this side, and a that side" History is not limited to duality…so you can have a multitude of views all working against each other or occasionally allying themselves to overcome a mutual enemy.....such world views, may have many different organizations to support them, sometimes they are connected, more often in history they are not.....simply the idea came up again or some variation.....

People interested in the subject would do better to research the philosophy of all such groups, and remember that those views were not static but evolved, then simply the names....names change, but the underlying philosophies do not.

The ACLU or at least as it was founded had more in common with Weishaupt then does Freemasonry, the idea of Roger Baldwin was that to get people to accept such radical new power structureviews as his (very Similar to Weishaupt’s) , the first step was to destroy all culture and religion....as they would be roadblocks to creating such a communal state. Even the modern ACLU is largely ignorant of its founder's intentions, and I doubt any longer considers any sort of end game besides the utter hatred of organized religion.....however there are other groups that would still usher in the same ideals.....but that does not mean there has been a constant organization behind these, just a constant Philosophy.

Likewise the ideals of Freemasonry were the basis for the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, America's separation of Church and state, but also its motto "in God we Trust". As their ideal was realized in the formation of America and many world Republics the need to be a secret society, or even politically active largely ceased.....you don't need to be a secret society when you have created the establishment. You no longer need to be active when your dream seems complete. Of course as that establishment is eroded away perhaps they will live again under a new name. As it seems more and more everyday their ideal “Atlantis” is shifting to the other Tyranny of the many…..whatever form they will take it will be by new signs and symbols.....The Capitalists ideal of preferring coin or the "dollar" to the "whip" of tyranny also is in line with that same Masonic ideal. To let the individual decide to what purpose, art, science, or theology he will labor for, rather than a group of elites. However masonry today is largely a shell of the active group….it has as much to do with them, as the Spinster joining Daughters of the American Revolution does with the men at Bunker Hill.

Individualism, vs Collectivism.......for eternity that war will rage. If you really want to figure out who’s who, just look at their philosophies, and where they put their energies. Consider the Jesuit view, vs the Templar View, the Lollardy view vs The Dominican Order’s View, and you’ll learn more about the Masonic vs the Illuminati views then simply by researching these latter two as you will understand the basis and parents of these groups.
There’s more truth in these paragraphs then you’re likely to see on here again. So I doubt they will be deeply considered. However it’s more than many are willing to say.

wow man.. # that im making my super secret organization that's going to be even more super secret then the ones the Illuminati only roomer about. Mine is going to have a man cave, Hookers, guns, pan cakes, bullets, barb wire, chain saws, hard helmets, and everything else manly.

reply to post by susej


Pretty sure the Vatican beat you to it.

reply to post by BirdOfillOmen


You are indeed correct there is a Illuminati or as many people call them on here TPTB (the powers that be) to not confuse the Bavarian Illuminati with the current one, and even if they are descendents of Weishaupt's group the modern day Illuminati that you are talking about has strayed so far from Weishaupts ideas that there basically a all together different group now....

But ForkandSpoon is right in that they are a bunch of different groups that get linked together, and they are linked in a very chaotic but yet organized way and yes they have what i like to call "point men" whos job is to infiltrate certin groups and organizations to monitor and if need be subtly influence these groups to fit there over all objective, such groups consist of religion economics and entertainment among others, but it's not as organized as most people think and in a way that is on purpose as to not leave too big a trail of patterns altho some patterns have arisen and people who study them can point out such traits.


As for another secret society trying to oppose them.... yes there is..... at least that's the rumor going around, supposedly a Asian secret society consisting of 6 million members or so is set up to do battle with them at the time the Illuminati/TPTB make what the Asian group considers there big grab, there's a couple of threads here on ATS about this Asian group and it gos into more detail about there motives......

Here's a link with detail about the Asian group i'm talking about....

www.rense.com...

reply to post by BirdOfillOmen


I don't think anybody with 2/3 a brain is going to work to ''liberate the masses''. That just doesn't make sense. Once you know the secret you will realize it is not for everybody. I know a secret, and I realize that it may only be one tiny secret inside a box of secrets. Actually I believe I have found a secret framework around which other secrets organize.

My point is, liberating the masses is not the goal. Even a secret group fighting another secret group is fighting for CONTROL OF THE MASSES. Nobody wants to free the masses.

Originally posted by King Seesar
reply to post by BirdOfillOmen

 

But ForkandSpoon is right in that they are a bunch of different groups that get linked together, and they are linked in a very chaotic but yet organized way and yes they have what i like to call "point men" whos job is to infiltrate certin groups and organizations to monitor and if need be subtly influence these groups to fit there over all objective, such groups consist of religion economics and entertainment among others, but it's not as organized as most people think and in a way that is on purpose as to not leave too big a trail of patterns altho some patterns have arisen and people who study them can point out such traits.

For the record, I was stating that are a variety of groups who are odds, and have different agendas, and are NOT linked, except in such conspiracy theories and in such forums. Linking every different power group makes it "simple". I think the practice is quite frankly mental laziness. To actually identify the different philosophies, at different points of time, and the different actors in the game, is much more complicated......but doesn';t make for a nifty conspiracy button, or tag line.

I will forever be amazed at people who see the chaos in nature, and in every experience in human existance, and then expect groups of starkly contrasted views, and actions to all be linked by a common cause. Life is fluid.....so are the organizations of man. It's never that simple.

I don't know why I bothered.....now I remember why I usually don't.

reply to post by ForkandSpoon



Here,Here
It is not just i could not say it better,no man could say it better.





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Well said indeed.

The sad fact of the matter is that some people need to be controlled, to their own admission, even.

The good versus malevolent controller is the relevant question, however, it is only relative to the individual member of the flock.

This is the reason why religion never made sense to me:

If someone is truly 'evil' wouldn't they prefer hell?

reply to post by ForkandSpoon


Yea i know the point you were making what i'm saying is some of these groups can be connected to each other through a chain reaction of sorts, i think the real hard part is connecting the dots the right way to see how they all fit together persay, but i also see your point in how there are different groups not really connected which is true some aren't connected, yet some are indeed connected and through a long litany of events in my opinion, kind of how they connect all the U.S presidents together such as twelfth cousins twice removed ect ect...that was the point i was trying to convey.

Originally posted by King Seesar
reply to post by ForkandSpoon

 

Yea i know the point you were making what i'm saying is some of these groups can be connected to each other through a chain reaction of sorts, i think the real hard part is connecting the dots the right way to see how they all fit together persay, but i also see your point in how there are different groups not really connected which is true some aren't connected, yet some are indeed connected and through a long litany of events in my opinion, kind of how they connect all the U.S presidents together such as twelfth cousins twice removed ect ect...that was the point i was trying to convey.

edit on 27-8-2011 by King Seesar because: (no reason given)

Loose connections undoubtedly exist, and the same way you research say spy crafts in the cold war era can be used through the ages. Identify the philosophy, find who the teachers were, and the students were, and then who their teachers and students were and you can trace the idea's movements.......ideas are in many ways more REAL than we are. We will all die.....we will be but dust, however the ideas, and our modifications to them live on. They are living breathing things....and thus say the protestant movement can be born in Masonry, and now in some cases evolves into a modern Jesuit philosophy attacking it's own foundation in the same way it wa sonce attacked by the real Domincans and Jesuits.....The denomination names have stayed the same, but the philosophies reversed nearly polar opposite. The oppressed becomes the oppressor ignorant of their lineage and beginnings.

In one era the Skull and bones is a symbol of freedom, and celebration of the individual, in another era it becomes the symbol of control, and even tyranny. In one era the Swastika is a symbol of joy and good luck, in another era it becomes the symbol of hatred, and apocalypse. In one era the Pentagram is the symbol of the proof of divinity and the creator, in another era it becomes the symbol of the renouncing of God. Symbols have no perm meaning.....even more so when they are very old, but the ideas.......they live on changing names and logos, but the battles for those ideas swing back and forth like a Pendulum eternally. To make sense of history and the conflict focus on the philosophy...and be ready for any one group to represent opposing ideas at different points in history.

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon

Originally posted by BirdOfillOmen
Maybe Freemasonry is a trojan horse of communism or whatever. But isn't it rational to think that there are loads of secret societies and that several of them have obtained a considerable amount of power and that at least a few are working to liberate the masses?]

It's better than rational, it's certain. I highly recommend the books by John J. Robinson, and Steven C Bullock if you really want to know the truth about Masonry when it was still politically "active".

Sorry I sheepishly must retract this statement. Or at least part of it. I should know better than to ever recommend any book I have not read. I had a friend recommend the Steven C Bullock book to me, on Masonry and the founding fathers, and took their word at it. Having read it yesterday……..let me just retract any recommendation. It might be interesting to a Masonic scholar for some of the quoted source material, but he appears to be clueless about much of the lodge’s history, how it worked in that period, and just well pretty much everything about Masonry as it existed then and now. It’s not just poor Masonic scholarship, it’s horrid. I did find his points about 1700’s society, and some source material interesting, so it is not all worthless. Though if he is that misinformed about masonry, I have to wonder about his knowledge of 1700’s society as well. But if anyone reads this hoping to understand masonry…..you won’t get it here. I mean you’d probably get a truer account from the Catholic church then from Bullock, and they in fact do dedicate themselves to lying about masonry.
For the record Bullock is not anti mason, that is not an issue I have, rather he simply is completely ignorant of Masonic history, and tradition, and best as I can tell, read an 1800’s book on masonry full of romantic fantasy that was popular at the time, and never bothered to check it for accuracy. His style also reads like a guy with a Thesaurus in hand at all times looking for a more complex way to say something basic in order to seem better educated then he is.
I still stand by every book John J. Robinson has written. While I may not be convinced of every verdict, he does leg work and checks his facts, and uses rational thinking more than fancy. I doubt he’s 100% accurate either, but his theory is one of the most solid I have read. Esp in regards to the reformation.

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reply to post by ForkandSpoon


I agree with your statement 100 percent, who ever has the power or at least portrays them selfs as having the power thorugh perception at what ever particular time will make any movement mean what they want at that time, the example of the swastika you gave is indeed case and point...

I'v bantered around a theory in other threads about the masons link to the group now known as the Illuminati and my thinking is what ever this power entity is called TPTB, mordern Illuminati or what have you have infiltrated the masons through the use of perception, they took the symbols of the masons made them quote un quote Illuminati symbols and now through the eyes of many there is no difference, so in a sense the meaning of the masonic symbols have changed to evil Illuminati symbols and i'v been around long enough to know most things like that aren't done by accident to which i deduct at some point this entity that people refer to as the Illuminati found the masons a threat and took action to cause this quandary, as to why is anyones guess i would assume it had something to do with (in the past) masons having powerful people as members and still do in some European lodges....


Most people don't have problems with what the core set of masons do, that's why you here so many people saying they have no problem with the lower ranking masons but it's the perceived higher ups who worship the devil and are Illuminati them selfs, so make no mistake about it a entity/group does exist, it's just up to the people to come up with who they are and what is all the tactics for there plan, i think people like Fritz Springmeier and John Todd were on to something legit they just might not have grasped the whole thing correctly but i feel they got parts right.

Okay let's say for the sake of argument that this Illuminati (though I doubt that would be a name they recognize for themselves) does exist.....why infiltrate Freemasonry? Freemasonry ceased to be active as a political or power entity by the mid 1800's. Since then including the various apendent bodies, it has been more or less a club, granted that still teaches it's virtues of tolerance, honesty, charity etc.....however what it is now ACTIVE in is pretty much charity work.

This was not always the case, in the 1700's it was fairly active and many of the great revolutions around the world froming Democratic Republics were all led by masons.....however in America esp after the Morgan affiar that sort of political activity ceased....I can promise you that.

Before 1717 you have differing opinions depending on the scholar, as Masonry was before then truly a secret society. There are some who even go so far as to say it was operative before that date....(no proof that I have ever been able to find of this that can be checked). However you find masonic philosophical language, records for masonry before that date, and of course the Catholic Church deffinately commented on masonry before then. It was already very active and usually opposing the Catholic Church. In many ways this was it's MOST active period, as it was in fact a haven for dissidents, and leaders from all sort of protestant movements started there. I personally beleive it was started by some sort of clergy whether that be the popular templar myth, or something more mundain....many groups of monks, preists etc found themselves at odds with the church......in any case.....my point for stating all this is simply if you were an Illuminati group the masons would have been near useless for some 150 years plus in the US, and perhaps a hundred years even in Britain.

As for symbols in masonry changing, that does not require the "Illuminati" to explain.....merely the "enlightenment" Freemasonry went from a group largely focused on the overthrow of Catholic power, and protestant reformation when it was underground, to a more multi faith, mystic view in the 1700's this was what was in "vogue" during that period, the world had opened up to trade and all sorts of cultures and societies and their religions were brought back, with new ideas to the UK......Every ritual and symbol in masonry can be traced back to Biblical reference, however it is in the 1700's that you start to get the romantic notions of double meanings and Greek, Egyptian, etc lineages.....to say that writing was not based on good academic research then is an understatement, and yet it is this period many of th 1800's masonic scholars would reference and some still do. As if being 200 years old makes bad scholarship, and ramblings of an aristocrat trying to be "mystical"...any less bad scholarship simply for being 200 years old. This is also of course when the Catholic church pressed it's disinformation attack even going so far is to make copy cat Freemasonry groups, in an attempt to undermine masonry.

I'm simply saying that the changes in philosophy in masonry are as much about the changes in membership and cultural changes then anything.

in the 1500's or 1600's being a mason could still get you killed....and even nobility in the lodge would NOT want it known they were masons......after the 1717 date Masonry announces itself, and morphs into a very different group, as it has become a "hip" group to join, and a way to network......

When people say Illuminati to me, I am still thinking of the historical group, and they I beleive are long dead.

There may be new power cabals, and they might be philosophical descendents of various groups......but they would not identify themselves as such "Illuminati".....however I reject the idea that there is any ONE group in control, as all of history has always shown a battle between such groups.....and a struggle, that we still have such conflict in the world makes this unlikely......if there really were one group, it might be a bit more 1984ish and the world would be more under one law. Or perhaps the middle ages is the best example, as the Catholic Church did aquire near monolithic power, and so you saw great repression of ideas, and little in the way of differing forms of government. The conflict then was merely which elite would be in charge, for the average person in slavery or serfdom...it was much the same no matter who was King or Pope. ....in away the upheavel and conflict we see, may actually be a healthy indicator that we have a fair amount of freedom as a whole around the world for starkly different ideals.

When the major military powers cease being at war withe ach other, when society becomes forced to accept single ideals, and all other thought is surpressed then I will beleive in such a group, however as long as those in actual power (those that weild militaries) are still on opposing sides of ideas, it seems clear to me no one group is in control.

reply to post by BirdOfillOmen

Ive wondered if we have multiple secret groups fighting
Hitler was from the Thule society, and he tried to conquer the world
We have all these politicians going to bilderberg
The bush family in skull and bones
it seems like a control fight to me, different "secret societies" sending out their members into politics to try to gain power