Originally posted by BirdOfillOmen
That aside, I'm curious of how many secret societies are known as a fact to exist. A lot of people believe several of our Founding Fathers were
secretly working against the early Americans as Freemasons and that these people that want to destroy our freedom are still in control of
That many of our founding father's were Freemasons is no secret. However I'd like to know who is stating that Freemasons were working against the
"Americans", or against "Freedom"? Freemasonry and it's philosophy and values are what the very "freedoms" Americans hold dear are based on. Masonry's
main goal as it matured was to free people from the Tyranny of the very Abusive Church of the middle ages, as well as to promote Government based on
the Rights of the Individual instead of monarchy. Before masonry espoused the values of all men being equal, or that all men should have a say in
government it was all but unheard of in Europe. Likewise when America started there was NO plans for freedom of religion. Each state had it's own
state religion. It was even codified into law in Virginia for example that any Methodist or Baptist was to be publicly whipped for preaching, as only
the Church of England Was recognized, likewise Maryland was the Anglican Church, Catholics were abused there, and Rhode Island was founded for the
purpose of escaping such abuses in Massachusetts. Masonry was the society for religious dissidents under the Roman Church in Europe....almost every
protestant denomination had members as it was a society that would give them refuge. There is no Organization in the world for the past 1,000 plus
years that has risked more, or dedicated itself more to fighting Tyranny, and defending the individual from Tyrants.
Originally posted by BirdOfillOmen
Wouldn't it make sense that the "good guys" started their own secret society to oversee the progress of their new democracy?
They did and
their society was formed long before America was colonized.....it was Ancient Freemasonry.
Originally posted by BirdOfillOmen
Maybe Freemasonry is a trojan horse of communism or whatever. But isn't it rational to think that there are loads of secret societies and that
several of them have obtained a considerable amount of power and that at least a few are working to liberate the masses?]
It's better then rational, it's certain. I highly recommend the books by John J. Robinson, and Steven C Bullock if you really want to know the truth
about Masonry when it was still politically "active". Freemasonry has always and always will oppose Tyranny, wether it's Monarchist despots,
Theocratic Tyrants like the Roman Church of the Inquisition days, Communism, Fascism. There's a reason why everyone of those groups actively purged
masons, and attacked and killed them in mass. As to the Illuminati's heirs.....they're as easy to find as any history book, and in plain sight....just
follow the philosophy.
Here comes a pearl, take it or leave it:
As for actively being against the "Illuminati" it depends on how you define Illuminati...most here in this foum use it as blanket statement to cover
ALL groups who have secretly met to organize changes in power, when in reality there have been many many such organizations, some for good, some for
bad, and more for self serving reasons. Illuminati on the ATS forum has become a catch all term, instead of meaning a specific group, more often then
not it is used to describe the mythological Steve Jackson game's organization, less often is it the ACTUAL Illuminati as they truly existed.....So
they take groups of stark contrasting philosophies and lump them all together with real and mythological organizations, put a Steve Jackson’s eye in
a pyramid seal of Illuminati approval and present it as a valid conspiracy......You could get as good a theory by making a computer like in the
infamous story of, Umberto Eco’s “Foucault's Pendulum” just put in random names esoteric symbols in a database, and hit “blend” and people
will believe whatever the random out put, and chalk up the inconstancies to “Mysteries” .
The actual Historical "Illuminati" as in Adam Weishaupt's creation is doubtfully behind much of anything today, although there are newer groups that
probably share its core philosophy. So one could argue by virtue of common hatreds, vices, and narcissistic power dream, they are his philosophical
heirs. Weishaupt started from a Jesuit background and I personally believe that is the most important aspect of understanding him. Everyone focuses
on the group he created, few seem to focus on the education, and values that molded him. He likely was well versed on Freemasons as the Jesuits had
been the primary tool for attacking Masonic lodges and any other church dissident group where the old Dominican Order tactics were not allowed (such
as England). I have little doubt he knew more than a little bit about them from the perspective of the Jesuits, (i.e from an enemies point of view)
and thus would have had a working knowledge of their structure, and organizational model. The Jesuits were often used as a sort of Catholic
intelligence/assassination service, I would compare them to a "Catholic KGB" in the early days of the protestant explosion in Europe they were VERY
active in that capacity. They were brutal in their tactics, used assassination, torture, slander and any other such method that served their purpose.
They even tried to blow up Parliament. "Guy Fawkes Night" ring a bell? Perhaps they should have studied their adversaries TRUE history as well, for
they too like the Templars before them became an inconvenient tool and became outlawed by the very papacy they had thought they were defending for a
time.....( delicious irony)..., it was after that period that Weishaupt created his Illuminati, now with a fresh deep hatred for the Church that only
a scorned lover can understand he forms his plans for revenge.
His plan was to exploit the masons, and change their goals to his. After all both found themselves at odds with the Church of Rome, both would be
persecuted by the Church, and the masons already had active network many centuries old. So the common hatred for the tyranny in Rome would serve as a
way to graft his organization to theirs. However while they enjoyed brief success locally in Germany, he was very unsuccessful once he attempted to go
abroad. His ideals were so radical, that even among radicals they were considered too extreme. In many ways his ideals was the fore runner to
Communism, or perhaps more the forerunner of the corrupt Communism as it existed, vs the ideal. His desire was to overturn all religions and current
states, and create a communal system across Europe, that was in fact controlled by a small elite......He and Stalin would have been pals. The USSR,
and even the KGB would have been his hearts desire.
Freemasonry had for much longer had wished to end the "secular" reign of the Roman Church, and eventually would embrace natural law, and the Greek
ideals of Republicanism, but it did not wish to destroy all religion, nor replace the current Tyrannies with a "new" one. In other words to take one
tyrant down just to replace it with another, did not coincide with Masonic ideals on individualism. Freemasonry was not the invention of one man or
even a group of elite, but rather many widely varying ideals that shared a common cause of survival, and mutual defense from oppression. This is whyit
has always forbidden debate of religion within the lodge, and embraced men of different creeds. The organization as it grew wished to bring forth
representational governments, and freedom of religions, and to separate church and state, but not to END the church, rather to reform it. To return it
to a “pure” theological state, and to allow various churches so that men might choose how they worshipped. For this reason the ideals of masonry,
made it the natural distillation society for many many many Protestant movements. An ironic bit as many of those same denominations today now attack
Masonry like the Dominicans and Jesuits did them, when Masonry shielded them in their infancy. In any case unlucky for Weishaupt, Marxism, and those
that would share his ideals of a totalitarian state economy, and faith directed by a secular elite……did not yet exist.
People who love conspiracies like to link peoples, symbols which they find mysterious, but are too lazy to research, number or colors, but very seldom
do they tend to follow and research the actual philosophies. There are certain world views that have been held by both rulers who outlawed opposing
philosophies, and been held by the secret societies when the opposing views gained control and forced them underground….and this has been going on
literally forever…..”there is nothing new under the sun” or in current pop culture "All this has happened before, and all this will happen
again."...and of course there is not simply a "this side, and a that side" History is not limited to duality…so you can have a multitude of views
all working against each other or occasionally allying themselves to overcome a mutual enemy.....such world views, may have many different
organizations to support them, sometimes they are connected, more often in history they are not.....simply the idea came up again or some
People interested in the subject would do better to research the philosophy of all such groups, and remember that those views were not static but
evolved, then simply the names....names change, but the underlying philosophies do not.
The ACLU or at least as it was founded had more in common with Weishaupt then does Freemasonry, the idea of Roger Baldwin was that to get people to
accept such radical new power structureviews as his (very Similar to Weishaupt’s) , the first step was to destroy all culture and religion....as
they would be roadblocks to creating such a communal state. Even the modern ACLU is largely ignorant of its founder's intentions, and I doubt any
longer considers any sort of end game besides the utter hatred of organized religion.....however there are other groups that would still usher in the
same ideals.....but that does not mean there has been a constant organization behind these, just a constant Philosophy.
Likewise the ideals of Freemasonry were the basis for the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, America's separation of Church and state, but also its
motto "in God we Trust". As their ideal was realized in the formation of America and many world Republics the need to be a secret society, or even
politically active largely ceased.....you don't need to be a secret society when you have created the establishment. You no longer need to be active
when your dream seems complete. Of course as that establishment is eroded away perhaps they will live again under a new name. As it seems more and
more everyday their ideal “Atlantis” is shifting to the other Tyranny of the many…..whatever form they will take it will be by new signs and
symbols.....The Capitalists ideal of preferring coin or the "dollar" to the "whip" of tyranny also is in line with that same Masonic ideal. To let the
individual decide to what purpose, art, science, or theology he will labor for, rather than a group of elites. However masonry today is largely a
shell of the active group….it has as much to do with them, as the Spinster joining Daughters of the American Revolution does with the men at Bunker
Individualism, vs Collectivism.......for eternity that war will rage. If you really want to figure out who’s who, just look at their philosophies,
and where they put their energies. Consider the Jesuit view, vs the Templar View, the Lollardy view vs The Dominican Order’s View, and you’ll
learn more about the Masonic vs the Illuminati views then simply by researching these latter two as you will understand the basis and parents of these
There’s more truth in these paragraphs then you’re likely to see on here again. So I doubt they will be deeply considered. However it’s more
than many are willing to say.
edit on 24/8/2011 by ForkandSpoon because: (no reason given)