War in heaven - when the angels attempted to depose god !

he is my thought has the war in heaven already happened or is it to happen, was Lucifer already cast out when he/she tempted Jesus? or is it still to come? some links to read if one is up to it search.yahoo.com... here is one with a simple, easy to read explanation www.minuteswithmessiah.com... from the link

One other passage may apply here. “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Revelation 12:7-9) Again, it does not specify who it was who cast Satan out. This is probably not about the first time Satan left heaven, whenever that was.

nor does it say at what time this took place. Was it at the time of the garden of Eden?, the time of job?, or the time of Jesus temptation?,or is it still to come????

Originally posted by myselfaswell
And you might try agnosticism, atheism is technically a religion, because it's a belief.

I'll stick with my original of being an atheist as I categorically deny the need for, and the existence of, any god or gods within the universe

Noun 1. atheist - someone who denies the existence of god
disbeliever, nonbeliever, unbeliever - someone who refuses to believe (as in a divinity)

Source: www.thefreedictionary.com...

rather than an agnostic

agnostic [ægˈnɒstɪk]
n
1. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) a person who holds that knowledge of a Supreme Being, ultimate cause, etc., is impossible Compare atheist, theist
2. a person who claims, with respect to any particular question, that the answer cannot be known with certainty

Source: www.thefreedictionary.com...

reply to post by tauristercus


[Being an atheist, I would normally stay as far away as possible from religious oriented topics or discussions or subjects as I consider religion, of any creed, to be nothing more than a bagful of inconsistencies, logical absurdities and discrepancy heaped upon discrepancy. But hey, each to his/her own and if you're happy to accept such non-sense (note the deliberate hyphenation used), then more power to you.]

Here's your first problem.
If you think its non-sense to begin with, you will find nothing in it that makes sense!


Points 1 through 4, are dealt with under the precept of FREE WILL. This means, all of the creators creations have free will, including angels. There is nothing flawed in this concept...what follows from it may appear to limited minds to be flawed; but the precept exists. All of the creators creations were given the gift of free will, do with as they liked, to learn what they needed to learn (while not being dictated to by the creator about HOW to do this). The rebellion describes the vainglory of a particular angel, lucifer, who presumed that his/her advancement, conferred some sort of authority over its creator, and therefore creations, of this 'corner' of the mega-super-monolithic creation.
God is the CEO, the angels are middle-management, and we are the mailroom boys and girls.
We, of course, can make it to middle-management (however many lifetimes this takes for us to do, according to the precept of free will) - but, we will never 'become' the creator - as we are already little versions, on this plane, of him.

The strife of the rebellion, or in fact any strife attributed to god/a god, will always follow the precept. It is the one enduring 'law', if you like. God will not intervene - he/she has set the parameters, and they are not changed mid-ascension (however long this takes). This answers all 'temporal' questions relating to the so-called, injustice, meted out by god, or a god by naysayers, who would attribute the injustice of men/women to an outside source, and assume no responsibility.

The precept of free will establishes the mechanism of responsibility - on an individual level and on a group level.

Unfortunately, some of your original assumptions, informed the the conclusions of your later points...so, i wont be addressing them individualy...you will need to read where, and how, you have done this...and come up with false conclusions.

Cheers
Akushla

Originally posted by randyvs
How can you possibly believe the assumptions and reasoning of any human being can match what's going on in the mind of God ? You don't see it as perposterous for man to try and imagine what Gods reasons are. If he created and set the Heavens in motion ? You see ? what I'm getting at ? Prolly not.

See as a creationist my belief of how we came to be, how we got here, about existence is right out there on the table to be ridiculed or picked apart by anyone. Where's yours?

edit on 8-7-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

How can you possibly believe the assumption of a 'god' as the basis of any kind of knowledge or position. No creationist can fathom the mind of rational reasoning, and it's presumptuous to even guess at what happens as a result of objective procedure. The theist mind is not capable of that.

There is more than just one propaganda perspective on a 'war in heaven'. After all Lucifer stand for some rather sound principles, and she/he isn't rebellious. She/he is a freedom-fighter.

reply to post by tauristercus


Hi, seconds before reading your post I was thinking the exact same thing as you with the same questions and scenerios and hypotheticals verbatim to what you said but not as articulate. Because I'm considering catholicism as the right religion for me.

Perhaps Lucifer never tried to trump god but infact was simply leading an exodus to which various angels or mesangers to man intreperted or failed to articulate propperly. (Or the scripture is simple propoghanda.) I'm also under the impression that many races lived in the garden of eden, and one of lucifer's goal at the garden of eden was to steal seeds to bring back to hell.

I'm also wondering if Lucifer and god arn't still pals and on the same team.

And then the alternatives to which you already covered, but also don't forget to understand that possibly God's power is alpha in comparison to our own possible understanding and therefore the scripture was simply worded for most to understand.

I like the movie Dogma, it shows how god can be omnipotent and all knowing and still give off a sort of air of defeatable.

Originally posted by collietta

Originally posted by Sahabi
You won't find it in the Bible.
The story comes from "Paradise Lost" by John Milton.

That explains why I couldn't find it in the Bible or why I haven't came across similar stories while looking into other ancient cultures.

So if it isn't in the Bible, but was apart of Christian literature, why are so many Christians taught to believe this? Like the OP pointed out, it doesn't go along with what Christians believe about God.

• Why do Christians worship on Sunday instead of the Sabbath?
• Where in the Bible does the word 'Trinity' appear? Nowhere!
• Why is Jesus' birthday associated with the winter solstice?
• Why is Jesus' death associated with the spring equinox?
• Why did Jesus say he would not come back until all has been prepared and finished, but then he appears to Paul with a 'new' gospel for the uncircumcised? Paul is a liar who changed Jesus' original teachings.

Truth be told, Paul and Emperor Constantine greatly corrupted Jesus' message.

I believe the War in Heaven - - - was a real war between off planet beings over control of earth and humans.

I believe a Federation of Planets - - - made the final decision between the 2 separate plans submitted by the warring parties - - as to who and how earth should be controlled.

But - were there conditions? Were there conditions that humans - given free will - had to reach a level of self-control by a certain date?

Was there a deadline? A deadline for conditions of self-control - - - and if the conditions were not met by the deadline - - the other party takes over control and implements their plan of control without free will.

Are TPTB of Global government in contact with the Federation of Planets - - - and know what has to be done to meet the conditions set forth in the approved plan? Does this have anything to do with the push to have more control of all humans via a World government?

I 100% do not believe there is anything mystical or omnipotent about the War in Heaven. I absolutely believe it was real and we may be in serious trouble if we don't get things under control.

reply to post by bogomil

The theist mind is not capable of that.

I don't even take you serious any more.

reply to post by tauristercus

Being an atheist, I would normally stay as far away as possible from religious oriented topics or discussions

www.abovetopsecret.com...
Seriously ?????

So, Noah had access to advanced genetic knowledge, cryogenics (to store ova, sperm, etc) and all the absolutely necessary high technology to recreate the destroyed species .... and yet with all this 'advanced technology' at his disposal, still went ahead and built his "ark" out of wood ???

www.abovetopsecret.com...
What happened to the old gods & goddesses ?

The answer is very simple and mundane ... we outgrew our need, dependence and beliefs in them when we gradually realized that there was no reason to keep them 'alive' in our rapidly increasing world-view.

But then unfortunately, mankind suffered a reversion and slipped back into it's old patterns and needs and went right ahead and created a whole new bunch of gods (religions) to worship.

Makes me wonder if we really have progressed all that much intellectually over the millenia

The bible is a story get over it

reply to post by DrCog

You said
[The bible is a story get over it ]

See if it were," only a story "? Everyone would' get over it. Common sense dictates that because people don't get over it ? It isn't " only a story ".

Everyone knows it isn't "only a story". Are you one who just believes the easiest thing for you and your lifestyle ?
Just believe what ever suits you just fine ?

Originally posted by inforeal
reply to post by tauristercus

 

Of course God knew about the “rebellion”

The problem with some religious folks is that they can’t accept the fact that God is the author of all things including evil.

Evil exists for many reasons; one is that it transforms energy more efficiently, through emotionality.

Evil is a temporary affliction that is the result of being outside of ones nature.
When the inner lost nature is restored then this “Satan” or “Lucifer” or the “devil “ will cease to exist”

Evil is a science as anything is. And is only possible within what can be called the Matrix. It is based on the 5 negative energy archetypes, and the “devil’ is one of them.

The”Devil” originally existed to balance powerful energy that for a time Adam had to be shielded from

The rebellion of the devil, on one level, was him informing Adam of the fact that he, the devil, was shielding him from powerful energies he couldn’t endure yet.

Lucifer hid many things. Including the power of Music. He was also jealous of man, since God created them in the image of himself and made the angels bow down to them. Lucifer, guardian of these things, knew what's to come. Basically, I believe we were meant to be gods living in peace but we fell off.