It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
No you didn't.
I demonstrated that the journal has a very questionable reputation,
If your idea of a "demonstration" used to back up your view of the peer-review process is a blog post, here's another blog post backing up the validity of the Open Chemical Physics Journal's peer-review process.
I demonstrated that the review process was flawed or non-existent,
--Steven Jones
Here's what you need to know (especially if you are not a scientist): UNLESS AN OBJECTOR ACTUALLY PUBLISHES HIS OR HER OBJECTION IN A PEER-REVIEWED ESTABLISHED JOURNAL (yes that would include Bentham Scientific journals), THEN THE OBJECTION IS NOT CONSIDERED SERIOUS IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY. YOU SHOULD NOT WORRY ABOUT NON-PUBLISHED OBJECTIONS EITHER.
If only he did it in the form of a peer-reviewed published paper...
I demonstrated that an actual expert completely pulls the paper to shreds,
Did you now?
I demonstrated the authors ignore critique and are not willing to do the required experiments,
From here
The peer-review on this paper was grueling, with pages of comments by referees. The tough questions the reviewers raised led to months of further experiments. These studies added much to the paper, including observation and photographs of iron-aluminum rich spheres produced as the material is ignited in a Differential Scanning Calorimeter (see Figures 20, 25 and 26).
Yep, just as earlier in the thread you requested a peer reviewed paper to back up my claims that the official explanation of how the towers fell is junk science, and I found not just one but many of them. I don't know what picture you have of truthers in your mind, but we're not a bunch of gullible idiots who live in a fantasy world all day, we're normal people who live in the "real world" just like you intelligent people who do not question the government in a highly questionable event. Also, you can't speak for the rest of the world and what they think about Jones paper.
yet you still require a peer reviewed paper in order to accept that its junk science. I guess this perfectly illustrated the difference between truthers and the real world. The rest of the world does not require a peer reviewed paper to understand that Jones work is junk. If you throw your bias away and exercise some critical thinking I am sure you can also come to that conclusion.
WOW two people resigned because of a hoax paper published in a different journal, The Open Information Science Journal, which isn't The Open Chemical Physics Journal. Sure they're both run by the same company, but they're not the same journal. That's like saying if employees that worked for Mountain Dew quit because of a product recall, then Pibb Xtra is bad since they're both run by the same company, Coca Cola.
Putting your fingers in your ears and saying "nanana" isn't going to help. It is not an established journal that scientists take seriously. You can claim it over and over, but real scientists disagree with you, and their opinion counts, yours doesn't. More proof: classic.the-scientist.com... Although I know you will keep denying the facts and keep believing that the journal creditable. You have invested too much in that position to give it up.
Yeah I'm sure, his work is just so bad, such a disgrace to the scientific community that not one person will even take the time to show what is wrong with it. That's how bad it is, they can whine about it on a blog, but it's not worth being fully debunked and pulled apart in an actual scientific manner.
You are really daft. The reason that no scientist writes a papers that rebuts Jones work is because it is not taken seriously outside the truth movement. Do you think that all the scientists in the world actually agree with Jones work but are too afraid to speak out? You may believe that this journal is a really high profile respected journal in the scientific community, but it is not.
I find it funny that you see yourself as qualified to speak for all scientists. What, two guys resigned, and that translates to "Every scientist in America thinks Steven Jones is a phony"?
Scientist shrug when they see Jones work and continue with real science. That is the reality you are not willing to accept.
Originally posted by TupacShakur
Yeah I'm sure, his work is just so bad, such a disgrace to the scientific community that not one person will even take the time to show what is wrong with it. That's how bad it is, they can whine about it on a blog, but it's not worth being fully debunked and pulled apart in an actual scientific manner.
I find it funny that you see yourself as qualified to speak for all scientists. What, two guys resigned, and that translates to "Every scientist in America thinks Steven Jones is a phony"?
It's not about convincing "truthers", if you read a published, peer-reviewed paper in a scientific journal and you heavily disagree with it, you don't just ignore it and say "Bah, that's a bunch of bologna", you write a paper in response to it and point out the flaws.
It is indeed not worth to waste time on (from a scientific point of view), because nobody in the scientific community is accepting this paper in the first place. Why would a scientist put effort into convincing truthers?
Right, that's why on the last page I linked you to four polls showing that a big chunk of Americans think that 9/11 was an inside job. Then when I asked you to find polls showing that only a teeny-tiny portion of Americans believe that the government was involved in 9/11, you completely ignored that request.
Outside the truth movement the whole 911 conspiracy is not taken seriously at all.
Not in a published, legitimate paper, just some dude talking on a blog.
But still, actual experts have taken the time to demonstrate what it wrong with it.
You're lying
And the Jones and his team did not come with a proper answer, nor did they do any of the tests that were suggested.
The peer-review on this paper was grueling, with pages of comments by referees. The tough questions the reviewers raised led to months of further experiments. These studies added much to the paper, including observation and photographs of iron-aluminum rich spheres produced as the material is ignited in a Differential Scanning Calorimeter (see Figures 20, 25 and 26).
My explanation is you're wrong, they did further testing because questions were raised during the peer review process, and they performed the requested experimentation.
What explanation can you give that they never did any further testing to silence the critics? I can give you one: because the critics are correct and the tests would prove Jones is wrong. Lets hear your explanation.
Originally posted by TupacShakur
It's not about convincing "truthers", if you read a published, peer-reviewed paper in a scientific journal and you heavily disagree with it, you don't just ignore it and say "Bah, that's a bunch of bologna", you write a paper in response to it and point out the flaws.
Right, that's why on the last page I linked you to four polls showing that a big chunk of Americans think that 9/11 was an inside job. Then when I asked you to find polls showing that only a teeny-tiny portion of Americans believe that the government was involved in 9/11, you completely ignored that request.
Not in a published, legitimate paper, just some dude talking on a blog.
You're lying
My explanation is you're wrong, they did further testing because questions were raised during the peer review process, and they performed the requested experimentation.
What explanation can you give that nobody published a paper to counter his, point out the flaws, and show everybody how wrong he was? I can give you one: Because he's not wrong. Let's hear your explanation, oh wait I remember what it was: His published, peer-reviewed paper is so lame that it's not even worth a peer-review.
Do you realize how stupid that sounds? Ignoring a complete failure of a scientific paper and just letting thousands of people read it and think it's legitimate without anything to show them why it's not? If it was filled with holes and flaws like Bazants paper that is backed by NIST, people would not just read it and say "Oh that sucks" and move on, they would show why the paper is wrong, much like those people that published papers in response to Bazants joke of a paper. If anything, that paper shouldn't be taken seriously in the scientific community, it's so flawed and filled with assumptions leaning towards their side of the story that it makes me sick. Plus, in the papers criticizing Bazants, they also used assumptions leaning heavily towards the official story, and after performing the necessary calculations they still concluded that Bazant's analysis was incorrect.
...And this claim is based on what? The fact that two editors resigned because a hoax paper was published in a different journal? Or the fact that it goes against the official story and many people including you support the official story?
Only if the paper is taken seriously. It isn't.
And neither is your opinion.
The American population is in no way representative of the scientific or engineering community concerning things like this.
The polls I posted beg to differ. The numbers range from 30-90% of Americans who think that 9/11 was an inside job. I'm still waiting on those polls that back up your claim that only a small portion of Americans are "truthers", because I've provided several that show you're wrong.
Even among the general population the truther position is not very large.
Oh, so everybody involved in working on that paper should scour the internet for blog posts criticizing their paper? You're saying that it's not the job of the critics to publish work that shows what's wrong with the paper, but instead it's the job of the authors to search the internet for bloq-critiques of their scientific work?
I am not lying, I am talking about the critique that came after publication.
Gee, I don't know, maybe because the requested experiments were requested on an internet blog, and not in a published paper that points out the flaws and brings up solutions to these problems, such as more experimentation. You sure love to appeal to the authority of these "experts", but if they're expertise is unrivaled in the field, why are their expert opinions confined to some blog and not a scientific journal?
But not after publication. You already know what I think about the quality of "peer review" of that journal. Why didn't they publish a follow up paper containing the experiments requested by critics who are, unlike Jones and his team, actual experts on the subject?
Again, you're basing this claim off of your opinion of his work with no evidence to back it up.
I already gave you the explanation, nobody takes his work seriously.
I don't know but the reproduction of his conclusion is not as important as the invalidation of his conclusion (Blog posts excluded lol).
Why do you think nobody every reproduced his conclusion?
How? Bazants paper that NIST supports is flawed, so people published their own papers pointing out the flaws in his work. If you think that Steven Jones paper is flawed, then why has nobody published their own paper pointing out the flaws in his work? Oh yeah that's right, it's so incredibly terrible that it's only worth a blog post. If the degree of thoroughness of a scientific criticism was based on how bad a paper is, Bazants paper would get a Facebook status at best.
You are a bit delusional.
That's a great idea, I'll try to do that and let you know what they said. Why don't you also call a few professors and see what they think about Bazants paper?
I have a proposition. Contact 10 chemistry professors at 10 different universities and ask what they think of that paper. I know you wont, as you will not like the answers.
Originally posted by TupacShakur
maybe because the requested experiments were requested on an internet blog
That's a great idea, I'll try to do that and let you know what they said. Why don't you also call a few professors and see what they think about Bazants paper?
OK.
Once you get responses we can continue this conversation.
WTC dust samples were ignited though.
That was not a sample of WTC dust that is ignited. How much research did you actually do aside from watching those idiotic misleading video clips from conspiracy websites?
"Junk Science" from page 19
Red/gray chips were subjected to heating using a differential scanning calorimeter (DSC). The data shown in Fig. (19) demonstrate that the red/gray chips from different WTC samples all ignited in the range 415-435 °C.....In the post-DSC residue, charred-porous material and numerous microspheres and spheroids were observed.
Fig. (20). photomicrographs of residues from red/gray chips ignited in the DSC (differential scanning calorimeter). Notice the shiny-metallic spheres and also the translucent spheres. Each blue scale-marker represents 50 microns.
Several paint samples were also tested and in each case, the paint sample was immediately reduced to fragile ashes by the hot flame. This was not the case, however, with any of the red/gray chips from the World Trade Center dust. The first WTC red/gray chip so tested was approximately 1mm 1mm. After a few seconds of heating, the high-speed ejection of a hot particle was observed under the hand of the person holding the torch (Fig. 22). The intense light and bright orange color of the particle attest to its high temperature.
Originally posted by TupacShakur
However, chips from dust samples 3 and 4 yielded 7.1 kJ/g and 5.8 kJ/g, much more than any of the explosives, as seen in Figure 30 on page 27.
I didn't know that, that's very interesting. Did you know that the chemical composition of the paint chips recovered from the WTC dust samples matches the chemical composition of thermite? That's a dangerous brand of paint right there.
Which is just proof it was not thermite or any known explosive. Did you know that the energy density of wood is about 16kJ/g, much more than any known explosive?
Originally posted by TupacShakur
Did you know that the chemical composition of the paint chips recovered from the WTC dust samples matches the chemical composition of thermite?
That's a dangerous brand of paint right there.
It is made up of epoxy resin, micaceous iron-oxide, aluminum powder syrup, anti-rust pigment and filling, flux and solidified agent.
It is widely used for ship, container, bridge, gas pot, wharf machinery, metal part and concretes anti-rust paint.
Which is just proof it was not thermite or any known explosive. Did you know that the energy density of wood is about 16kJ/g, much more than any known explosive?
This table lists energy densities of systems that require external components, such as oxidisers or a heat sink or source. These figures do not take into account the mass and volume of the required components as they are assumed to be freely available and present in the atmosphere. Such systems cannot be compared with self-contained systems.