JAPAN INSANE, radioactive MADNESS !!!

reply to post by randyvs
I don't think nuclear power is economically feasible. The only reason we think it is is that we hide the true costs or don't even know them.

The waste disposal cost is unknown because we haven't figured out a way to dispose of it yet.

And the insurance cost is unknown because for example in the US, the insurance cap is something like $10 billion. I don't think it's higher in Japan, the whole industry is underinsured. The cost of cleaning up Fukushima is going to run into hundreds of billions of dollars, which would bankrupt TEPCO, so consumers will end up footing the bill.

If the industry was properly insured, that alone might make nuclear power economically impractical. But add in the unknown cost of disposing of nuclear waste, and it's even less economically feasible.

We let the nuclear company lobbies get away with letting the consumers subsidize their insurance and not have to dispose of the waste, and that's the only reason nuclear power exists. If those economics were figured in, we wouldn't have nuclear power according to my back-of-the napkin calculations.

I'm not sure what your point about 13 year olds is. Are you suggesting that economics don't drive decision-making processes in the real world? I think even a lot of 13 year olds know that.

Originally posted by MACchine
I did not know that GOOD IDEAS !!!

Yes there are some interesting ideas for the future like the mass driver, but we're not there yet. I frankly have no idea how they are going to safely dispose of waste for tens of thousands of years, other than space disposal.

Any other method I've heard, and 10,000 years from now it seems like it could show up somewhere to poison our descendants.

With recent breakthroughs in nanofiber technology a space elevator is now in development. This could be a very cost effective way of disposing of the nuclear waste.

A satellite will sit in geosynchronous orbit as the space end and a small diameter cable made up incredibly strong nanofibers will connect to a base on the surface. The base will most likely be floating platform in the Gulf of Mexico, for some reason they don't want it on land.

There was a design contest not too long ago for the transport carts, so I think it's much closer to fruition than NASA is admitting. I can't find the article but there were some pretty ingenious designs that could lift tons of payload into space for what we lift a single pound right now.

Regardless, the technology is not working yet, so a more immediate solution eludes us.

The situation in Japan sounds like it could well surpass the Chernobyl accident.

And sadly it doesn't appear that they can trust the information their govt gives them either.

Japan is a funny place, and not everything is as it seems. Tokyo police boast a 95% murder conviction rate, but thats only because any case that isn't easily solved is put into another category. I Read a fascinating article by a former Tokyo policeman who resigned in disgust over the way they ran the entire police force.

It may seem like a paradise to outsiders, but there is a seedy element to Japan that they refuse to talk about.

Originally posted by AGWskeptic
With recent breakthroughs in nanofiber technology a space elevator is now in development. This could be a very cost effective way of disposing of the nuclear waste.

A satellite will sit in geosynchronous orbit as the space end and a small diameter cable made up incredibly strong nanofibers will connect to a base on the surface. The base will most likely be floating platform in the Gulf of Mexico, for some reason they don't want it on land.

I read about that.

NASA Claims Space Elevator Feasible by 2100
It's kind of hard to predict things so far into the future, so I'm not sure if they couldn't be off by a lot and it really won't be done until 2200. But for the sake of discussion, assume 2100 as NASA claims.

What will we do between now and 2100?

That's a long time to have used fuel pools sitting around like at Fukushima, though they will be cooler by then .

But if the space elevator works, it will be a huge help to the economics of space disposal of nuclear waste, however it will still take a considerable amount of fuel to get the payload from the space elevator out of Earth's gravity, to reach the sun, though far less than launching from the surface.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
Any other method I've heard, and 10,000 years from now it seems like it could show up somewhere to poison our descendants.

edit on 18-6-2011 by Arbitrageur because: clarification

During the Charter administration they buried some processed waste sludge in shale, which I found in a couple old articles on a couple years ago. And as far as I could determine I think I even found an article that said there have been no problems at all with that disposal.

I believe it also appeared that they are trying to keep this solution ABOVE TOP SECRET because the Democrats want to use the problem of the waste disposal to kill nuclear power because a successful nuclear power industry would be a win for the Republicans. Also, industry people/unions probably see the Yucca Mountain solution as a cash cow, job creation, and of course, any big union is a cash cow for the DNC.

A couple of years ago I proposed, in article comments, using nuclear waste to heat the shale in Utah and Colorado to produce crude oil in Technology Review

reply to post by MACchine
Yucca mountain site has been killed, I thought? After spending millions.

The shale disposal makes me think of fracking. Most of the time that works without contaminating groundwater.

But in some cases groundwater has been contaminated. And that's not radioactive contamination.

I don't think a single successful test of a couple of decades is very reassuring that groundwater won't be contaminated with radioactivity 10,000 years from now. I'm not saying it won't work, but as Fukushima has shown us, it's not the foreseen stuff that is a problem, it's the unforeseen stuff that gets us. And actually I'm not sure it's that hard to foresee either a Fukushima style disaster in an earthquake zone, or radioactive sludge finding its way into groundwater after 10,000 years. That's a long time, and actually it can still be dangerous after 20,000-30,000 years.

reply to post by MACchine
Never in my life have I seen such a consorted effort to prevent engineers and scientists from answering the distress call. This ceased to be a Japanese problem and became a global catastrophe within a day of the quake. People like Arnie gunderson have to yell to be heard, and are using their own financial resources just to provide awareness. We've seen a 35 percent increase in infant mortality on the west coast of the US, and fallout has been detected nationwide, and nothing constructive has been done to, in the very least, create some basic containment.

I know of many who have volunteered to go at their own expense and were refused. Personally, I have given up trying to help. I have some background on the subject and not much concern for my life, so I spent the first few weeks on the phone, working old contacts at Darpa. It was a frustrating and demoralizing process. I even tried to hitch a ride with the russians when I heard they were contemplating a response of their own, and that fizzled. Unless the Japanese develop a pair of rocks and decide to clean up that mess soon, the casualties are going to be astounding. So many of them are already the walking dead.

AX
FTNWO

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by AGWskeptic
With recent breakthroughs in nanofiber technology a space elevator is now in development. This could be a very cost effective way of disposing of the nuclear waste.

A satellite will sit in geosynchronous orbit as the space end and a small diameter cable made up incredibly strong nanofibers will connect to a base on the surface. The base will most likely be floating platform in the Gulf of Mexico, for some reason they don't want it on land.

I read about that.

NASA Claims Space Elevator Feasible by 2100
It's kind of hard to predict things so far into the future, so I'm not sure if they couldn't be off by a lot and it really won't be done until 2200. But for the sake of discussion, assume 2100 as NASA claims.

What will we do between now and 2100?

That's a long time to have used fuel pools sitting around like at Fukushima, though they will be cooler by then

.

But if the space elevator works, it will be a huge help to the economics of space disposal of nuclear waste, however it will still take a considerable amount of fuel to get the payload from the space elevator out of Earth's gravity, to reach the sun, though far less than launching from the surface.

That article is from 10 years ago, they made the breakthrough around 7 years ago. The math and physica have all been worked out.

I'd bet money they've in the process of putting one together.

I'd be surprised if wasn't reality by 2020.

It could explain why the shuttle is being mothballed with no replacement in sight.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
snip

Here's a thread someone just made on that topic:
Worse than Fukushima Daiichi?

TSURUGA, Japan — Three hundred miles southwest of Fukushima, at a nuclear reactor perched on the slopes of this rustic peninsula, engineers are engaged in another precarious struggle.

So the other thread does have a link starting off with "three hundred miles...". But it's a pretty crappy thread, yours is better, but why all the caps?

snip

Thank you very much for the assessment, it is appreciated.

Originally posted by InFriNiTee

Originally posted by gremlin2011
this is seriously messed up! why cant the fuel be sent to the sun???

The idea of launching nuke waste into space would work, if it just weren't for the astronomical cost! Nuclear power is fairly cheap the way it is. Include the riddance of waste, and the cost will increase to the point of making it too expensive to operate.

edit on 18-6-2011 by InFriNiTee because: (no reason given)

...not to mention, what country in its right mind would allow a rocket full of nuke waste to fly over it on the way to space?!? There have been too many failures to take the chance that the one time they need it most, it would work for them.

This whole mess indicates to me.

We really need to look elsewhere for our power needs.

We obviously do not have this technology under control.

I do not blame the Japanese People. They are victims.

Who needs any of these "End of the World Prophesies".

We are probably going to do it to ourselves...

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by jadedANDcynical
Thank you very much for the assessment, it is appreciated.

Do you have a different opinion?

You didn't say anything. All you did was repost a quote from an external source with no comment.

That may even be a violation of the terms and conditions, but I don't see why you would even think it's a contribution when you didn't even say anything in the OP. You're expected to do that when starting a thread.

There's a rule against "one-liners". You're was more like a zero-liner. What kind of feedback do you expect?

I read about this yesterday in the New York Times. My question is what "device" slammed into the reactor and why have they not named what "device" it is? It apparently weighs several tons... so again what device slammed into the reactor?

reply to post by MACchine


This thread reads like an old episode of batman. "Oh no please don't"
Well to be honest this doesn't sound as bad as the ones caused by the quake.

Nothing to see here move on

Originally posted by gremlin2011
this is seriously messed up! why cant the fuel be sent to the sun???

space travel currently costs: $10,000/lb. Plus any accident before entering "space" would be catastrophic.

Originally posted by Homedawg
The japs have always been sneaky and borderline insane...this stuff just proves it...."saving face" my a*s

More than bit "racist" there aren't you?

I'm sure not every single "slanty-eyed" "jap" is "sneaky".
'course George Takei was gay all those years piloting the enterprise...While every one else was watching "Yoeman" Janice Rand he was thinking about the Vulcan "booty meld".. (sneaky sneaky...)

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Condescending much?

If you had looked beyond my initial post (which I admit was a bit spartan, but was an edit of a blank post I inadvertently made) you will see the second post I made contains my original opening commentary.

Admittedly, that post was clumsily done and I will probably restrict myself from beginning a thread from my iphone in the future, however the mods do not seem to have an issue with it or with this duplicate thread so we shall be able to compare content.

____________________________________________

EX-SKF, who has been the soirce of mich good information regarding Fukushima Daiichi , has the following blog post in relation to the Monju Fast Breeder Reactor:

Monju is a fast breeder reactor that uses sodium as coolant, which catches on fire on contact with air. It uses MOX-fuel. 3.3-tonne, 12-meter "In‐Vessel Transfer Machine" fell into the reactor vessel on August 26, 2010. The manager at the plant in charge of fuel exchange committed suicide in February this year.

So we have another suicide attributable to this plant.

Originally posted by jadedANDcynical
Admittedly, that post was clumsily done and I will probably restrict myself from beginning a thread from my iphone in the future

Ah so that's what happened. Well perhaps I was a bit harsh, sorry about that, but at least you realize that doesn't look too good for an OP to not have any comments, and don't plan to repeat it, though I don't understand why if you edited the OP, you didn't just put your OP commentary there? Anyway, water under the bridge.

So we have another suicide attributable to this plant.

Yes we do. And I won't be surprised if more are on the way.

Many countries, even us have dumped radioactive waste into the Marianas Trench.

President Bush declared the Marianas Trench a "National Marine Park" and banned any country from going down there.


That's where we and Japan will dump all our waste. Likely along with everyone else on Earth.

You can be poisitive, that my reference to 13 year old mentally handicapped people, wasn't in anyway meant as
an insult, to your own obviously outstanding knowledge of this industry. No way. Reponses appreciated at 100%.
Thank you. I did however, feel what I said and said what I feel. The world would be better off, with every one who
is mentally handicapped and below the age of thirteen running it. The rest of us in charge of making our own way to the bathroom. Shocking I know.

Your back of the napkin reference I thought was very cool.
Can I use that some time ?

Stars for you and a Flag for the OP's heading. Not at all sensationalised.