God: Not a very perfect creator.

So, I was pondering a few threads, and christianity in general.

Disclaimer:
I am totally off the hook from christian flaming as I have given the token positive christian thread Here. Not my fault hardly anyone was able to add to the list.

Anyhow, a interesting comment got me thinking:

So you people may just have to accept that their are demons, so who created the demons? Demons are simply fallen angels. Who created those angels? That's a no brainer.

-HolyandClean in his thread
You people do know that these "Aliens" or "UFOs" are in reality demonic spirits?

Interesting
I started to answer back, but first off, it seemed slightly off topic, but actually it made more sense to give it a new thread for dissection.

Goes a little something like this-

-God is what...well, lets focus on him as a creator.
God is a perfect being...therefore, as a perfect being, he/she/it (lets go with He as I quite like the image of Gandalf the White as God...comforting) creates only perfection...it simply makes no sense for a creator to create perfect imperfections, to build in design flaws that will purposefully make it break...agreed?

no..of course not...so fine..lets say Godalf created all things then, yet he created some things good enough, some things evil, some things etc..and let everything make its own mind up...
No? don't like the creation of evil bit? man...make up your bloody mind...fine, we are going back to the perfect creation theme then!

So there is God with his sweet staff creating stuff...first he makes heaven (God needs a sweet place to hang for a few eternitys)...but he is bored..so he creates these angels...slaves really, they sing, they dance, they do all sorts of very cool stuff
The whole place is just perfect...perfect environment, perfect creation of angels...yet God is slightly bored still...he wants something of interest...seriously, you can only listen to angels sing hallelujah for a few trillion times before it gets a bit dated...so he makes space, matter, time, etc...and then makes people.

Now, he mixes things up...he decides to simply make the functional parts...and a brain to process and run stuff. Good...and now they got this free will thing which should certainly create some interesting senarios..

We are built with a bit of a design flaw on purpose...to not only seek out and enhance our own connection, but perhaps to amuse old Godalf also with some zany reality television or whatever the purpose is.

Well, these perfect angels in this perfect environment get a look at the plan (before it was even built) and one guy...whom was actually one of the most perfect of perfect beings, gets all haughty and rebels

crap...how did that happen...and how could god have not seen this to begin with? a total design flaw...rebellion? against the perfect creator? in the perfect place of happiness?

Something is fishy here...this seems to insinuate that perhaps angels are not perfectly made...or heaven is not perfectly overwhelming and joyful/tranquil even if there was rebels in the midst..

Lets not even discuss what is going on in the actual universe...everything he has created has either died, broken down, rebelled (and broken down and died), etc.
This earth thing he spent ages building...he had to wipe out to almost extinction because it was so messed up.

ok, thats the thought
Is there anything that God has created that didn't break, die, rebel, or otherwise sort of suck?

If you were a multi-billion year old scientific firm, with access to literal miracles and magic...and you had a guy whom couldn't even put together a unbreakable system, uncorruptable computer, etc...would you keep that guy on as an employee?

Is the god of the bible just that poor of a designer? if yes, then that sort of debunks the whole "perfect" aspect of the biblical god, doesn't it?

ok, enjoy...and not to worry, cake and grief counseling will be available at the ending of the thread.

the way i see it is that life is a balance, positive and negative. there are some beings at the end of both spectrums and people in the middle.

God must really love cockroaches, those things are damn near impossible to kill.

reply to post by SaturnFX


As you said, this character from the bible is bored. But not only that, he also has all the typical symptoms of a severe sociopathic paranoia/megalomania syndrome. A malfunction so advanced, that it manifests with multiple personalities. He's loving AND revengeful. He has three identities.

The question of 'free will' and of the quality of craftsmans-ship (creation) will probably turn up, when pro-theists make their appearence. My guess ..... starting with the usual circle-argument: "But he's 'god', so it must be OK".

reply to post by Nosred


i guess. i usually just use a shoe and squash them. its pretty effective.

The Creator loves His creation so much that he allowed His Children to separate from His will if that was their will.

We have the knowledge of good and evil within our Spirit, which we can refer to as our 'conscience'. This is the 'perfection' within--the Creator essence 'inner voice' within that allows opportunity for deeper connection to Divine Grace which opens the doors of Truth and Knowledge.

We have a choice to make where we dwell. With the Spirit of separation or connection.

Love Him and He will pour His love out in return in obvious ways, it's part of the journey of 'realisation', so you can rejoin Him in Glorious 'ascension', for we are currently in 'fallen' state here. Peace.

Originally posted by Nosred
God must really love cockroaches, those things are damn near impossible to kill.

Behold, the form and face of...
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/82687a72ef8b.gif[/atsimg]
God? gah...we are in trouble.


I prefer Gandalf personally, however, the japanese may have it right:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/90e6187cf1e0.jpg[/atsimg]
May just be a crappy robot

Originally posted by benedict9
The Creator loves His creation so much that he allowed His Children to separate from His will if that was their will.

Our will...was to erm..be born without a choice into this world.
I don't remember signing up for this...I am pretty sure I ordered the "everything comes easy, no such thing as hate or violence" universe...
clearly I was dropped off on the wrong dimension...against my will no less.

We have the knowledge of good and evil within our Spirit, which we can refer to as our 'conscience'. This is the 'perfection' within--the Creator essence within that connects us to Divine Grace.

the knowledge of good and evil.
What about gray areas? train barreling down the tracks...there is a fork in the tracks and you have the lever to change the trains course.
on one set of tracks, a bus full of holy men and women on their way to church...on the other track is a bus load of children going to atheist camp to learn how to ignore god better.
Which one is the right, or 'good" choice...quick...you got only a few seconds to decide who dies...the older holy people whom will spread gods word and love, or the atheist kids whom will probably cause less faith should they be allowed to grow up.

omg, hurry...

We have a choice to make where we dwell. With the Spirit of separation or connection.

Ya, see, I am currently dwelling in florida...and actually, thats not fully my choice either verses..circumstances..lifes funny twists, thats a differnt subject
however, isn't it easier to say you have a choice when your life is without any serious challenges? You can say its all about happy thoughts and love until someone murders your child...then suddenly your not wanting to turn the other cheek, unless its their cheek and turned with a claw hammer...
just saying...constant peaceful harmony in life is a luxery afforded to either the wealthy or the insane typically.

Love Him and He will pour His love out in return, it's part of the journey of 'realisation'

and by love, do you mean watching all those you love die, disease riddle your body, wars erupting, famine, ignorance, etc etc etc...aka, all the broken things..
What has he done for me lately?!

, so you can rejoin Him in Glorious 'ascension', for we are currently in 'fallen' state here. Peace.

Rejoin?!
Fallen?!

I didn't fall...I was pushed!

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

As you said, this character from the bible is bored. But not only that, he also has all the typical symptoms of a severe sociopathic paranoia/megalomania syndrome. A malfunction so advanced, that it manifests with multiple personalities. He's loving AND revengeful. He has three identities.

The question of 'free will' and of the quality of craftsmans-ship (creation) will probably turn up, when pro-theists make their appearence. My guess ..... starting with the usual circle-argument: "But he's 'god', so it must be OK".

You know what "god" makes sense to me conceptually....
not a biblical "god is good and heaven is candy"...thats just utter rubbish..it is insulting to my intellect.

what does make sense is that...well, we are all part of god...we are god. not just humans, but bugs, birds, rocks, stars, gas, etc...the whole thing..all matter in this incredibly complex system that is in its essence, conscious.
and we are simply a reflection of a tiny part...its simply a system that is using all these perspectives collectively to understand itself to begin with...its question is "what the hell am I", and due to lack of...other gods to discuss with, it is simply running a systems check through our eyes and the material universe.
no ultimate evil, no ultimate good, there is a sort of infinity within the system, as energy simply changes shape into different perspectives...

This is a God I can understand...sure...its us examining our own body so to speak, and noting every single cell has a personality and tiny bit of self awareness that makes up the whole...like a giant brain pondering, in 3d, all the different aspects.

The whole God in a labcoat and a magic wand magicking random stuff and seeing what happens and hopeing the new strange little creatures don't touch their private bits...its...just stupid really..just really, really stupid.

my opinion.

reply to post by benedict9


You wrote:

["The Creator loves His creation so much that he allowed His Children to separate from His will if that was their will."]

That is, if he's real and not just a fictive character from a book of fables, created from motives of fanatism and/or social engineering.

Quote: ["We have the knowledge of good and evil within our Spirit, which we can refer to as our 'conscience'."]

According to the fables, the acquisition of said knowledge of good and evil was contrary to sky-daddy's wishes, and no end of problems arose from it.

Quote: ["This is the 'perfection' within--the Creator essence 'inner voice' within that allows opportunity for deeper connection to Divine Grace which opens the doors of Truth and Knowledge."]

Nope. This is the ALLEGED fantasy-story about it.

Quote: ["We have a choice to make where we dwell. With the Spirit of separation or connection."]

So when assumptions A, B and C miraculously have been promoted to 'truth', we can pile further assumptions on the top.

Like this:

Quote: ["Love Him and He will pour His love out in return in obvious ways, it's part of the journey of 'realisation', so you can rejoin Him in Glorious 'ascension', for we are currently in 'fallen' state here. Peace."]

Amen and out.

reply to post by bogomil


Within this dimension, we know what evil is because we are in it's presence in 'fallen state'.

The Father loves you even if you have forgotten your origins with the limitations of 'mind' perception in the flesh 'overriding' the Knowings of Spirit. You will remember again on your journey and especially when you depart the flesh once more. You will continue to be given experiences and spiritual 'nudgings' on Earth from the benevolent powers who oversee the Creation.

I do not dispute there are distortions in religious texts, however there is much good fruit and wisdom also for those who recognise it within. Bless you.

reply to post by SaturnFX

Our will...was to erm..be born without a choice into this world. I don't remember signing up for this.

The goals your Spirit in the 'heavenly realms' set out to achieve would be too easily accomplished if you were given total recall. You did make your choices and here we are

What about gray areas? train barreling down the tracks...there is a fork in the tracks and you have the lever to change the trains course. on one set of tracks, a bus full of holy men and women on their way to church...on the other track is a bus load of children going to atheist camp to learn how to ignore god better. Which one is the right, or 'good" choice...quick...you got only a few seconds to decide who dies...the older holy people whom will spread gods word and love, or the atheist kids whom will probably cause less faith should they be allowed to grow up.

In a situation like that it would be the will of the Creator who determines who remains or who departs. There are no accidents and death is an illusion the mind perpetuates in it's state of 'forgetfulness' of origins in the Spirit realms. The Holy Spirit would intervene with what course of action was 'meant to be' for the 'greater good' that the Creator understands in greater wisdom than our own.

however, isn't it easier to say you have a choice when your life is without any serious challenges?

You are here for the challenge, it would defeat the purpose otherwise. We all have to bear a cross of sorts, whether by our material lackings, spiritual turmoils or both. Our circumstances will test us to either greater connection or separation from the Father.

and by love, do you mean watching all those you love die, disease riddle your body, wars erupting, famine, ignorance, etc etc etc...aka, all the broken things..

If you bear Love within, for all humanity you are already Blessed. We are not in 'Heaven' yet. Those of Love will dwell in loving places if they overcome this world and 'evolve' in Good Spirit choosing positive actions when we have the will and temptation to be negative. The Spirit of fellowship that Christ gave example of to show us the Way, to the Truth and the Life was a Divine gift that many mock or erroneously disbelieve due to the corruptions within 'religion'. Much love and thanks for the chuckle, you have an endearing sense of humour.

Originally posted by benedict9

I do not dispute there are distortions in religious texts, however there is much good fruit and wisdom also for those who recognise it within. Bless you.

There is also good fruit and wisdom in a deepak chopra book, or hell, lord of the rings.

Why do we have to compromise now with a old book (bible) for a few nuggets of great advice and morals when we have soo many other books today that teach that and more without all the flaws, evils, distortions, bigotrys, etc...

Why not use "how to win friends and influence people" as our new bible, or one of the other mountains of good and wise books?

The bible has alot of good stuff in it...true...but its totally dated and much of the stuff simply either doesn't relate to modern world, or goes against what we deem to be acceptable behavior.
Slavery...no, we don't need rules on how to treat slaves and how slaves should act...slavery is bad...its outlawed, totally useless information.
Burned offerings for sinning...no, we aren't going to slaughter a ox if we have bad thoughts...get over it..no no no, and again, no.
and shellfish is an abomination? seriously..how is this book still running nations?

Originally posted by benedict9
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Our will...was to erm..be born without a choice into this world. I don't remember signing up for this.

The goals your Spirit in the 'heavenly realms' set out to achieve would be too easily accomplished if you were given total recall. You did make your choices and here we are

Sounds like reincarnation
Earth school
and if thats the case, and I fail class...meh, I guess I repeat it...

What about gray areas? train barreling down the tracks...there is a fork in the tracks and you have the lever to change the trains course. on one set of tracks, a bus full of holy men and women on their way to church...on the other track is a bus load of children going to atheist camp to learn how to ignore god better. Which one is the right, or 'good" choice...quick...you got only a few seconds to decide who dies...the older holy people whom will spread gods word and love, or the atheist kids whom will probably cause less faith should they be allowed to grow up.

In a situation like that it would be the will of the Creator who determines who remains or who departs. There are no accidents and death is an illusion the mind perpetuates in it's state of 'forgetfulness' of origins in the Spirit realms. The Holy Spirit would intervene with what course of action was 'meant to be' for the 'greater good' that the Creator understands in greater wisdom than our own.

While you were hesitating and philosophising that, the train ran off the tracks, killing both buses and the passengers of the train (all of them of course were orphans)...great job..you decided to let everyone die and god sort em out.
brutal

however, isn't it easier to say you have a choice when your life is without any serious challenges?

You are here for the challenge, it would defeat the purpose otherwise. We all have to bear a cross of sorts, whether by our material lackings, spiritual turmoils or both. Our circumstances will test us to either greater connection or separation from the Father.

And what about stillborns, aborted babies, and sudden infant death syndrome where they didn't get to test out jack?

and by love, do you mean watching all those you love die, disease riddle your body, wars erupting, famine, ignorance, etc etc etc...aka, all the broken things..

If you bear Love within, for all humanity you are already Blessed. We are not in 'Heaven' yet. Those of Love will dwell in loving places if they overcome this world and 'evolve' in Good Spirit, fellowship that Christ gace example of and taught to show us the Way, to the Truth and the Life.

The kingdom of heaven is within you.
Just words I guess if your saying we aren't already in heaven.

Heaven is, from what I understand, just the will to be in it
"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
A few times, the bible suggests that heaven is here if we so choose it...not seperated...actually, Jesus flipped out constantly whenever people decided to put things between themselves and god.

Whomever so believes in me are my brothers and sisters
I and the father are one

Constantly asking how he did his magic tricks and he kept saying it was just faith...just faith that he and anyone else could do..as we are all the same...Jesus walked as a man because he was trying to prove a point...that he is god, that men are gods, that we are god, that stop asking for god and accept you are part of god...

And so the religion of Churchianity continues to remove the message, remove christ, and sell him only upon death for a lifetime of mental enslavement...and the followers of Churchanity quickly reject christs teachings in favor of churchianity's salvation through donation and enslavement to their brainwashing. yay jesus, job well done, in that they murdered you, dropped a church on your body, and removed the natural divine nature of all in exchange for a pay to play system.

I reject the church, I reject christianity...because I actually quite like Christs messages (the unnerfed ones not twisted by his necro-marketers decades after he passed)...I see the blasphemy of religion for what it is...a destruction of the soul of mankind and in its place, icons of a man and a book seperated from the message of self empowerment that the man actually taught.

But enjoy your book and your iconic man to pray to..some people love the pagan methods of totem worshipping.

Much love and thanks for the chuckle, you have an endearing sense of humour.

Well, if you can't smile and laugh, your either dead, or missing the point of life.

reply to post by SaturnFX


The greatest virtues of the Bible are the teachings and examples of Christ in fellowship for All mankind that is our family, regardless of colour, creed etc.

Pray for guidance and discernment to 'see' with the help of the Holy Spirit the many illusions and false teachings in the world. I ask that you also not blindly believe any of my written word either. Seek and follow your heart, your inner conscience to willingly receive the Father. We must understand we are Children who cannot do it on our own, although our ego doesn't often like to admit that or realise it. Receive Him in a spirit of thankfulness and Love, asking for guidance for a deeper connection. He WILL listen always. Take a leap of faith. No truly great thing is received without it. The choice is yours. Your will is yours. I wish you the very best. You are of Good Spirit.

reply to post by SaturnFX

And what about stillborns, aborted babies, and sudden infant death syndrome where they didn't get to test out jack?

Some souls enter to guide their 'parents' evolutionary path in service. Other examples come down to free will choices and 'cause and effect'.

The kingdom of heaven is within you. Just words I guess if your saying we aren't already in heaven.

A state of inner fellowship connection with our Father and the Son of same Spirit in Grace, Love and peace is within our power and grasp on Earth, this is True. We are not currently in a 'Heaven' paradise existence though. A spirit that has attained inner Grace will be at peace, even if 'chaos' surrounds.

Where we are capable of evolving to 'beyond' this current paradigm of Earth, there will not be the influence of evils that exist as they do on this Earth. Horrors of war, hate, negative division, torture etc.

I don't subscribe to Churchianity either. Majority are corrupted in this great age of apostasy. No church needs to come between your personal relationship with Christ and seeking Divine Truth. I have read a small portion of the Bible, yet I was still led to Christ, Hallellujah and was shown many insights to affirm my Faith so it was not 'blind', but that's another story. Peace.