The 2012 Intellectual Debate

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------No Trolls invited--------
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If you will not contribute to this thread,
with concise and well thought out responses,
please do not reply


Two line responses, and attacking posts
will be IGNORED and not responded to

Admins will be asked to remove posts which
are intended to sidetrack and derail any
actually informative debate.

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As we get closer to the Singularity of 2012,
the debate on its authenticity has infuriated.

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There is one group who seems to have high
amounts of despise for anyone who believes
any part of 2012 theory

One must remember there are many theories,
and just because an individual suscribes to a part
of 2012 theory does not mean they believe it
in entirity.

The other group is obviously fascinated, and is
still looking for answers.

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One says they know everything about the subject,
and the other admits there is much they don't know.

In an academic setting, it would be the people doing
the research whom might admit to knowing everything
about the subject.

But, with 2012, the roles are reversed.

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After a hiatus from the site, I return and see the thread :

ATS thread : A Question to All You 2012 believers

I was very disappointed to see a thread of this caliber on ATS.

I like to think we have a higher quality of posters and posting ideals.

At least the OP got zero stars for his post, and only two flags.
(I would wager the flags not gained from OP contribution).

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His thread was like saying:

No Offense, but then saying something offensive.

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It Infuriated me. How disrespectful......

Then recently came the great thread :
ATS thread: A Question for all the " 2012 "believers

Here was another post with not much of an
Intellectual debate.

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That is what we need to have, an intellectual sharing of
opinions and fact across a peer reviewed medium.

What can be verified will be verified by others
Opinions will be labeled opinions, and so should
Lore and Fable.

Do not take offense if your views do not coorelate
with everyone else's.

Strive for Truth, Love, and Harmony.
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In an admittingly childish response to the previous
2012 thread, I posted my own reply, in the form of
my thread :
ATS thread : A Question for al "2012" non-believers


I responded his questions with a reversal of the same.
I thought his argument was self applicable.

But, this proved NOTHING, and accomplished the same.

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So, I included my synapsis of a very small part of
2012 theory, and why I believed it to be true.

Zero of my points were refued logically.

Some fake unbased cries of hoaxers that was
easily shown to be a veil of lies itself.

So, no one was able to disprove one thing.

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I believe this to be the same work of several forum trolls,
Whom do nothing but clog up 2012 threads, with zero
supportng evidence, only a distrust for everything 2012.

Distrust is okay, as long as its not blind distrust.

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I would welcome any refutation to my posts.
Just prove it to me, and I will OPENLY admit
MY errors.

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce

Why weren't you attempting to disprove 2012 BEFORE the Y2K scare?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I do assume that the Mayan Calendar was around before the year 2000.
If that is so, why weren't you voiceing your strong opinions against this before hand?

Answer: There seems to have been a global shift in conciousness that drove people to research ancient civilizations, and 2012 prophecy is part that has been uncovered.


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Let me also point out, 2012 prophecy is NOT ONLY based on the ending of the Mayan Calendar.

Sumerian Texts also talk about about 2012 as "Changing of the World, as we know it".
And, before you completely disregard teachings of Sumer, remember these writings encompass many stories that fill out our Chrisitan Bible.

Also, Hopi Indian prophecy points to 2012. Even though they do not believe the world will end, they say that people who are unable to adapt to change will be doomed.

So, along with the Mayan Calendar, that makes THREE prolifent societies that warn us about this day upcoming.

QUESTION: So, why do you blatantly disregard the only major date that all three of these ancient and wise civilizations warn us about?

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So, you want to discredit all of 2012 theory because of your own personal theory that the end of their calendar means NOTHING...........

I won't even point out how small minded of an idea this is. But, to refute this logic, lets look at the rest of the Calendar.

The Mayan Calendar is comprised of Three Distinct parts.

1. Tzolkin
2. Haab
3. Long Count

It is the ending of the long count in which people discredit all of 2012 theory.

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Fist is the Tzolkin, which is 260 days. So, does this calendar mean anything?
Mayan Shamans say that this 260 days is the gestation period of a Human.

This means the Tzolkin calendar counts the time from fertilization to birth, roughly.
So, the first calendar counts something distinct and important.

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Second is the Haab, which is 365 days. We all can see this means something.
The Haab tracks a full solar year, which is a full cycle of Solar Birth.

This means the Haab is what Mayan civilization depended on to determine when to plant, when to harvest, and many many other aspects of their life. They lived by the Haab.
So, both the first and second calendars are important and life saving........

But, of course (by your brilliant deductions) the third must count nothing, and be unimportant

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Third is the Long Count, which ends December 21, 2012 (by some people's calculations).

I contend that the Mayans thought this was a very important calendar.

Why would they have a third calendar that counted nothing?

I propose that this is gestation of the human species, perhaps a step that we take in our evolution.
Or, this is a time of great destruction and peril.

Is it pure coincidence that astral projectionists can not see past this date during meditation?

The Mayans never say that the world is going to end, but if there was not going to be a change, then why make such a long calendar and why do you make sure that generations to follow pay attention to your calendar?

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Or, its just easier to believe that everything means nothing, and you can stick your ostrich head back in its hole. That is easier after-all.

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And here was my response to the view that
The end of the calendar means nothing:

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
The Mayan Calendar, especially the Long Count, is cyclical.

This means that after it ends, it begins again.

This "cycle" belief was a large part of Mayan Beliefs.

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They believed that our World was destroyed four times in the past.

The date on which they say the last world was destroyed and the current world was formed was August 11, 3114 BCE.

This date was at the last completion of 13 baktuns. The next 13 baktun completion cycle is the 2012 date.

Even though they do not say it is upon this completion of the 13th baktun that our world will end, and another will begin, does it take much logic to look at their past cycles and infer that they thought the same would happen?

If said events happened on the 13th baktun last time, surely they would have believed that similar events would happen this time. Because, the Mayans believed that even all of the days that we go through are cycles of past baktuns repeated over and over; this was the core of their cyclical beliefs.

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Here is a better description of Mayan Cyclical beliefs:

Quote from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_calendar"

This conceptual view, in which the "cyclical nature" of time is highlighted, was a pre-eminent one, and many rituals were concerned with the completion and re-occurrences of various cycles. As the particular calendric configurations were once again repeated, so too were the "supernatural" influences with which they were associated. Thus it was held that particular calendar configurations had a specific "character" to them, which would influence events on days exhibiting that configuration. Divinations could then be made from the auguries associated with a certain configuration, since events taking place on some future date would be subject to the same influences as its corresponding previous cycle dates. Events and ceremonies would be timed to coincide with auspicious dates, and avoid inauspicious ones.[7]

Another reply. Please confirm or refute.

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

My theory? It's because after Y2K failed to destroy the world, all the chicken littles that need there to be a doomsday crisis over the horizon latched onto this 2012 business. And when 2013 rolls around, I'm sure they're going to find another near-future date for the "big one," and will panic accordingly

Y2K was a current human made scare that was only brought about because computer programmers were too lazy to write dates in 4 numeric values, and only wrote them in 2. Many people did not think the world was going to end, just that our economic and banking system would fall. Y2K hardly parallels 2012 prophecy.

And, before you completely disregard teachings of Sumer, remember these writings encompass many stories that fill out our Chrisitan Bible.

And this is supposed to lend credibility?

I would think a religious text that a majority of the world believes strongly in its authenticity would have some sort of credibility, yes...
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Also, Hopi Indian prophecy points to 2012. Even though they do not believe the world will end, they say that people who are unable to adapt to change will be doomed.

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Prolifent? What's that mean? Are you combining "prolific" with "proficient"? And, well, not to dis the Hopi, but I'd hardly put them on the same scale as the Sumerians or Maya.

You caught me. I did mean Prolific, one grammar mistake in all of my writings, whereas I'm not going to even point out the gross errors in the next sentence you wrote.

pro·lif·ic   /prəˈlɪfɪk/ Show Spelled
[pruh-lif-ik] Show IPA

–adjective
1. producing offspring, young, fruit, etc., abundantly; highly fruitful: a prolific pear tree.
2. producing in large quantities or with great frequency; highly productive: a prolific writer.
3. profusely productive or fruitful (often fol. by in or of ): a bequest prolific of litigations.
4. characterized by abundant production: a prolific year for tomatoes.
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QUESTION: So, why do you blatantly disregard the only major date that all three of these ancient and wise civilizations warn us about?

Because so far only the Maya mention that date (Sitchen does not count as Sumerian research, and I just explained hte Hiopi thing) and they don't give any "warnings." Unless it's like the calendar you can buy at the store that tells you "End of the year, buy a new calendar"

If you not thinking the Hopi civilization was important enough to give credence to their prophecies, maybe you should think of what future civilizations will think of us, or just go back and read my "small-minded" comment again.

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So, you want to discredit all of 2012 theory because of your own personal theory that the end of their calendar means NOTHING...........

It means it's time to get a new calendar. Doesn't sound that dramatic, but have you seen these things? They're big handcarved rocks. And the math involved! Getting a new Mayan calendar will be a lot of work!

Doesn't sound all that dramatic? According to the Maya, the last world was Destroyed at the end of the last Long Count. Nope, total destruction isn't dramatic at all.....

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I won't even point out how small minded of an idea this is. But, to refute this logic, lets look at the rest of the Calendar.

Not believing in something that has no evidence isn't small-minded. It's "intelligence."

The idea that a civilization as astrologically advanced as the Mayans would devote so much effort and knowledge into developing a calendar, and then you regard it as "inconsequental", and having no meaning is indeed "small-minded" and unintelligent in my book. Do they Mayans seem like a people who would waste all of their time on something frivilous?
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Second is the Haab, which is 365 days. We all can see this means something.
The Haab tracks a full solar year, which is a full cycle of Solar Birth.

This means the Haab is what Mayan civilization depended on to determine when to plant, when to harvest, and many many other aspects of their life. They lived by the Haab.
So, both the first and second calendars are important and life saving........

Well, the sun doesn't go out at the end of the Haab, does it?

The Sun is almost reborn, as the precession of the season begins again. You have to understand that to ancient people, braving through the winter and seeing the coming of the spring was very akin to rebirth..
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Why would they have a third calendar that counted nothing?

Why do we have a month that only has 28 (sometimes 29) days? Leap years must be a period of significant importance, right? Nah. It's just because of how the math works out.

Do not forget that every calendar is Astrological, and not purely mathematical. So, it is not merely math or numbers, but is how we progress over time and through the solar system.
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However, if it's NOT true, then I can either spend the remaining two years worrying about something that won't happen and feel really dumb when 2013 comes around. or I can spend the remaining to years just doing what I would have done anyway.

It's kind of Pascal's Wager in reverse. it's more of a benefit to not bother, since if it's true, I lose nothing by not bothering, and if it's false, i lose by bothering. See?

So, since you believe that theres nothing personally that you could do to affect anything in the world, it is probably better that you believe in nothing, and sit on your butt and do nothing.... gotta love that logic.

Cheers!

I honestly believe that our governments are trying to prepare us for something big, using the Mayan's prediction as a crutch to create controversy about the subject. What are they preparing us for? We can only speculate. At the end of the day, we will never know until it actually happens, but what we do know is that the hype has definitely been building up over the last several years. There's two possible outcomes:

1. Something BIG happens
2. Nothing happens and we all look like idiots

I have come to my own personal conclusion that I'm not going to worry about it anymore. Why worry about something that is inevitable or unpreventable? None of us make it out of this life alive anyways... lol. We all need to start living in the moment and taking advantage of life and all it's beauty instead of living in fear of the unknown and allowing that fear to monopolize our day-to-day lives... especially if the world really IS going to end next year.

It seems to me because of all the false and misguided predictions here at ATS and elsewhere, people have contracted what I call "Chicken Little Syndrome". How many times have we heard "the sky is falling". After a while everyone begins to ignore, or worse, despise prediction threads. And this is understandable.

I think a good portion of predictions are just craziness, and misguided. However, I also believe there have been quite a few intentional false predictions. To what end, I'll leave to the reader.

So, does the end of 2012 hold any surprises for us? I have to admit, I'm a skeptical fence sitter myself. But I would like to know if the Mayans gave us any clue as to what caused the previous 4 earth changes. This could be useful knowledge in understanding potential scenarios.

S&F because I still find this an interesting topic.

to be honest this subject is old news either you believe it or not. i mean what other information than we all already know about this can we bubble up not much. i mean where do we get our info not from some rare book that has age old wisdom we get it from the internet thats been watered down and changed as seen fit over time to do its work. terror tatics have been used for control for a long time and never has it been so easy to inject itself to the masses. i believed this at the start but as time went on i just accpeted it and went on with my life and i have bought supplies just in case things get froggy, but if it does happen what can you do just try and live just like we are now one breath at a time.

NEW Information:

ATS Thread : March 9th - New Era of Conciousness

Look at the prediction of March 9th,
Then check out the later page responses from me
showing the events of the 9th.

One of the events was the 8th, as someone
else replied.

But, its too much for it to be coincidence.

reply to post by Klassified


I have to agree with your logic Klassified.

This can also be called the "Boy who cried Wolf" phenomena.

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Is it possible that Y2K was developed to discredit 2012?

I believe that is a definite possibility, because we are so
motivated by fear.


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Take a look at global warming.

That whole issue is a fear campaign.

reply to post by ThreeDeuce


I thought thats what all these 2012 threads were anyway. Debates about what will or wont happen in Dec next year. Why is your thread different ?
And now I have to add a third line. (talk about raising the bar) as this OP thinks they're a mod too.

Politics is as fake as a hollywood movie, I cant believe people still buy that garbage

reply to post by ThreeDeuce


I know I've said it before but I will say it again and each time I see Y2K listed as a doomsday prophecy.
Y2k was a computer programing problem having to do with the date format used on computers before Dec 1999.
The format mmddyy only accounted for 99 years. The issue was that the computers around the world would think that it is 1900 instead of 2000. The issue was noticed several years before the end of 1999 so a lot of money was spent reprograming computers over a few years and voila. problem fixed. (although I did unplug my computer that new years eve I didnt panic or contimplate suicide) Had the problem not been fixed ( and fixable)
there could have been system shutdowns that could have been problematic but nothing on the lines of a dooms day. Gosh where where all you people in 1999 that you dont know this???

I don't think that I qualify for any of the "extremist" camps on the issue. I think that there is an extremely high set of coincidences and worsening world conditions all seeming to converge on or around December 2012. I think that there's also quite a bit of fairly credible written text saying that something will happen. But am I sure it will happen? No. It's a doomsday prophecy. As of right now, for the last 200,000 years humans have been on Earth, "doomsday" theories are batting at 0%. It just takes an insane amount of rock solid proof, not conjecture, for me to buy into a "doomsday" theory.

With that being said, I wouldn't be shocked if something did happen. When the day comes, I will most likely spend all day thinking about it because of the hype that has been built up. And it's a fairly well sourced theory, so it's not like a tabloid Armageddon spot.

I am more against this forum because I think it's turned from 2012 to basically Niburu/Elenin all the time, and I think that debate has been pretty well ended for most lucid individuals. This forum wastes too much time on Google Space blackout spots for it to be taken seriously.

2012 is not going to happen !!!!

It is so sad to see people who are not even Native who probably never even have known a Native or even been to a ceremony or a sweat or spoke to a Elder on the false claims of 2012 using Native Mayan calendar and the Hopi and who ever else you can find to support and conjure up false words .. We red people sit back an actually have a good laugh at all the white mans predictions taken as they claim from the Mayans ect ect. and other tribes ect ect.

This I am afraid to say is not so .. the Mayans never meant that the world would come to a end in 2012.

We have oral stories and many come from our ancestors who indeed were on this land way before the white folks and Spaniards in the Mayan area ..
I will only say this its not true .. We have said that one day man will ruin the earth by disregard for Mother Earth
that days ahead the earth will be to sick and the animals will start to .disappear .. and the fish will dye in the streams and birds will fall from the air and the waters would be blackened .. The trees and plants would slowly disappear
and the ancient being the great spirit would tell the people of how the world today has turned away from the Great Spirit and that is why our Earth is "Sick".

I could go on about this but I am not it is not some prophecy of our Tribes that our world is going to end in 2012
we are well on the way .. and believe me its not going to happen by December or in 2012..

If it should happen that a asteroid strikes or the Yellowstone decides to erupt this is not part of the 2012 that would be a natural earthly disaster .. and in my mind a good way to have to avoid all the suffering that’s ahead .

we have fake seeds and native people are starting seed banks .. so that we will still have the original seeds instead of the messed up ones they have now .. If you don’t believe me there are some not many elders out there that will tell you it is man who has much to do with our earth and its end .. and the other is just the earth saying screw it all >>>>O

As we get closer to the Singularity of 2012,
the debate on its authenticity has infuriated.

Where do you get the idea that some sort of singularity exists
that is associated with 2012? What do you mean by
this?

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In an academic setting, it would be the people doing
the research whom might admit to knowing everything
about the subject.

Sounds like you don't spend much time in an academic
setting. I really know no people in academia who would
claim to know everything. That is tatamount to asking to
be let go since there is no more research to be done.

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That is what we need to have, an intellectual sharing of
opinions and fact across a peer reviewed medium.

That's a funny joke since this is not a peer reviewed
medium.

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What can be verified will be verified by others
Opinions will be labeled opinions, and so should
Lore and Fable.

Why didn't you label your opening post as opinion?

reply to post by ThreeDeuce

Zero of my points were refued logically.

I doubt this is true. I've read your posts. You have trouble being truthful. I suppose this is just another of your myriad misrepresentations.

So, no one was able to disprove one thing.

I doubt your claims.

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I believe this to be the same work of several forum trolls,

So you can't handle being shown to be wrong?
So you can't handle confrontations when you post blatant lies?

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So you begin this thread with a series of whinings in which there
is little evidence for the sorts of things you do not like such as
being caught telling lies. It is horrible to be so quickly and easily
caught telling lies. It must really hurt to be so easily dismissed
due to failings.

Here are a few hints:
1. If you link to a site expect people to read what is on the link.
2. Don't lie and hope no one checks. There are some really educated people here at ATS
3. Ask for help when you are unsure. There are some really educated people here at ATS

reply to post by ThreeDeuce


You're a profound liar. I have already shown that human gestation is 281 days. I provided a link to a recent paper in which ultrasounds were used to derive a very accurate date. You simply continued to lie and you lied about the links you provided.

reply to post by karen61057


Don't forget that there were 3 issues with 2000:
1. Y2K
2. the Millenium group predicting the second coming
3. The awesome planetary alignment that tore apart the Earth that was for 5/5/2000 I believe.

Why is everyone "researching" the mayan calendar seem to forget there is a 14th Baktun..?, or dates in Mayan records that extend to several thousands years in our future, and tens of thousands beyond that..?

It is the greed factor, fame factor, whatever we wish to call it. But there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence on any Mayan calendar that the earth comes to a mysterious end or new beginning. There are many thousands of years that follow 2012 in the Mayan calendar, if any of the researchers were actually engaged enough to do their own proofing and legwork they would have found these facts. There is no mention of a new beginning, it is the end of the 13th, and begining of the 14th baktun, nothing more nothing less. Just another page in the great cycle.

Lazy authors rely on someone else's research, and when the initial research is flawed as the case with 2012, then all subsequent papers and books and movies and videos are flawed as well. In this case i believe it is purposely covered up to allow hysteria and market their goods.

DO YOUR OWN research, then come back and state what the Mayans actually recorded, or the Hopi actually said.

None of the materials supports hypothesis distributed around ATS and Hollywood and 2012 end of the world industry. It is fear mongering to sell books and movies and create falsehoods to enrich themselves.

reply to post by ariel bender


Exactly ..
I have .been on pow wows.com for years now... not only that >>this is just a new age phase thing !!!

It was never mentioed in our culture years back im 50 + and I know this is not true.. bunch of BS .. you know what it is ???? it's a money maker and any tribal member that ever has went along with this BS is out for the money and fame is all .... Bahhh