Bible law exceeds God’s “Eye for an Eye” law.

Bible law exceeds God’s “Eye for an Eye” law.

From this fact, it follows that human institutions have placed themselves higher than God, in terms of what laws they will follow. This includes religious hierarchies. They all break the first commandment. All believers also break the first commandment if following secular law over God‘s.

There are ample examples in scriptures where the basic law of an eye for an eye is promoted. IOW, the penalty should suit the sin. A graduated scale of fault. A do onto others and brotherly love type of fiduciary thinking. Reciprocity is fair play type of thinking.

Lev 24;20
Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.

You might note that this passage indicates that man sins against man and shows that we do not and cannot sin against God. Forgiveness comes from man. God cannot be hurt by mere men.

There are also ample instances where the Bible urges us to kill our own for reasons that are less offensive and that do not meet the notions of the justice of an eye for an eye. Fornication and disrespecting parents being two of the many reasons to exact holy revenge by death. Exceeding an eye for an eye by a long shot. It is these more barbaric law that has helped secularism grow.

In following secular laws, we seem to be ignoring God’s laws and thus breaking the first commandment.
God. The word God, means many things to many people but at the root of your understanding of the meaning of that word-- should be rules for living a good life.

Secularism has wisely, chosen to discard some of the older notions and draconian laws.
As more people become educated to secular standards, religions will decline. God’s laws will die in the hearts of men.

Should believers of the Bible God follow God’s laws or the laws of man?
Does it break the first commandment or not if believers follow mans laws?

Is this an end to religion’s and God’s relevance in terms of law?
Is the mythical God no longer required for the best law?

Remember please that we are in 2011. Not 111.

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Regards
DL

If the bible is supposed to be the word of God then how can the bible exceed him?

Are you talking to Christians or Jewish followers? We know that the laws of the OT were given to the Jews in a very different time then before Christ gave his forgiveness and sacrifice to all. The OT commandments, namely the 10 commandments, are good notes but are not the law that signify our (Jews and Gentiles alike now) new covenent with Jehovah God.

Matthew 5:38-42
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

It may be something that is seen as being overlooked but certainly it is not. Jesus taught us how to conduct ourselves as servants to one another through willing and working love, through this worshipping the Father. You will know a man by his actions, does he have the love of the forgiving Lord in him?

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

reply to post by Greatest I am

“That old law about 'an eye for an eye' leaves everybody blind. The time is always right to do the right thing.”

Martin Luther King, Jr.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Mahatma Gandhi

Those laws will make good tp once the SHTF. Any real omnipotent being would have most likely told a more interesting story to make the faithful stay faithful IMHO

It's not "God's" law, it's the Code of Hammurabi. Hammurabi, a Sumerian king. It was considered progressive mainly because it went from "Life for an Eye" to "Eye for an Eye".

reply to post by Artanis667


You wrote:

["It may be something that is seen as being overlooked but certainly it is not. Jesus taught us how to conduct ourselves as servants to one another through willing and working love, through this worshipping the Father. You will know a man by his actions, does he have the love of the forgiving Lord in him?"]

It's always pleasant to see the compassion version of christianity promoted, instead of the 'faith' or 'law'. But then on the other hand your post starts with following

Quote: [" before Christ gave his forgiveness and sacrifice to all."]

Sacrifice? Sacrifice for WHAT? So are we after all in the standard department of the faith-postulated original-sin/redemption, sugercoated with sweet love to make it go down easier.

PS

Quote: ["are good notes but are not the law that signify our (Jews and Gentiles alike now) new covenent with Jehovah God."]

OUR? I do not remember signing any contract with any alleged 'god'.

Originally posted by Artanis667
Are you talking to Christians or Jewish followers? We know that the laws of the OT were given to the Jews in a very different time then before Christ gave his forgiveness and sacrifice to all. The OT commandments, namely the 10 commandments, are good notes but are not the law that signify our (Jews and Gentiles alike now) new covenent with Jehovah God.

Matthew 5:38-42
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

It may be something that is seen as being overlooked but certainly it is not. Jesus taught us how to conduct ourselves as servants to one another through willing and working love, through this worshipping the Father. You will know a man by his actions, does he have the love of the forgiving Lord in him?

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

edit on 1-6-2011 by Artanis667 because: grammer

Much of what Jesus said was simplistic rhetoric that does not work in real life.
Turn the other cheek.
I can see the logic of that somewhat if we are talking about treating the thief as a charity case but if you try to apply that saying to rape for instance, what is one to do?
Offer the wife after the daughter has been raped?
See. It does not work the same way as much of Jesus' rhetoric does not work.

Take Jesus in another instance. He promoted that for divorce, let no man put asunder should be the norm, yet today, it seems like the majority of so called Christians are divorced.
Most have good reason for it and Jesus was wrong to promote that unhappy people should refrain from trying to find happiness with a better mate.

Whose law do you follow? Secular law or religious laws?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

“That old law about 'an eye for an eye' leaves everybody blind. The time is always right to do the right thing.”

Martin Luther King, Jr.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Mahatma Gandhi

I guess you missed this in the O P.
"There are ample examples in scriptures where the basic law of an eye for an eye is promoted. IOW, the penalty should suit the sin."

Eye for an eye has nothing to do with eyes. It speak to reciprocity.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
It's not "God's" law, it's the Code of Hammurabi. Hammurabi, a Sumerian king. It was considered progressive mainly because it went from "Life for an Eye" to "Eye for an Eye".

I agree.

Regards
DL

reply to post by bogomil


Understanding why we need to be saved from ourselves is to understand the nature of God the Father as well as our nature.

Not one of us is perfect. When I say perfect, I mean perfect in love. "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18 "The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death." Proverbs 14:27

If we could love perfectly, we would not need to be saved from the punishment we deserve. The fear of God is much like how a child may fear his father when he knows he's done something wrong. The mother says "Just wait until your dad gets home!" and the child hides under his bed because he knows punishment is what he deserves.

God the Father's nature cannot be changed and part of His nature is justice. There is no other being in existance in this position. What He has made and turned against Him and His creation must be taken care of, however that may be. It's like if you were to create a sentient robot who went haywire and started breaking all the laws. Wouldn't it be your obligation to destroy what you've created?

When Jesus suffered on the cross, He literally took onto Himself the punishment WE deserve for our sin (transgressions of Love) so that we could live. The punishment cannot be dissolved because the justice of Jehovah is absolute. It had to be carried out on someone and Jesus took it for us. All Jehovah asks is that we believe the things Jesus has told us and we will recieve the forgiveness of all our transgressions of love.

The bible also tells us what love is in many parts but what comes to mind is "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

The law of God is unconditional love of Jehovah and His creation. All other creation that leaves this love cannot exist into eternity. "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." - 1 john 4:8. All we need to do is see that we are inherently transgressors of love and put our faith in God and his son that He will change us and live a life we know Love would see fit.

reply to post by Greatest I am


How can we know that His ways do not work if we do not trust Him and thus, do not attempt what He has told us? I agree, if you want to be top dog in the world, these ways will not give you that desired outcome. We all know the coldest and most unforgiving among us thrive with material wealth and power but we also know that material wealth and worldly power means nothing.

If a man comes to you in a situation where "TSHTF" and demands all you have, give it to him with the love you should have for him. Pray for him, through these actions he might notice "this guy is different" and see the love of God through you.

The rape scenario is a bit more difficult for us to grasp, how to correctly love someone who wants your daughter. Would the believer be condemned for refusal to hand her over? Of course not but it goes to show us how much more faith we should have in God. Would it lead to an all out chaotic situation where people get injured? Almost certainly if the man wanted her that bad. What if the same man you grudgingly gave food and cloths to decided he also then wanted your daughter? What if the love of God had shown through you and his conscious would have him leave before considering?

It's very difficult for us to see the possibilities if we do not trust God from the beginning and will almost certainly lead us down more dangerous paths by denying the actions He would have you take. It could be that a very faithful, loving family would have been lead away from any rape situation far before it could have ever taken place.

My point is that God's ways may seem simplistic and unrealistic but we'd never know until we tried and perservered through working love and faith. A man who does so will certainly live a very fulfilling life in God. We don't see many people like this at all today unfortunately.

God also tells us when we find a wife to be equally yoked. "A foolish son is his father’s ruin, and a quarrelsome wife is like a constant dripping. Houses and wealth are inherited from parents, but a prudent wife is from the LORD." Proverbs 19:13-14 A wife that is with you in Christ will understand that true love works. You cannot have a successful marriage if one partner is unwilling to try. If they are married together in God, the bond is potentially unbreakable, assuming they have faith and perserverance from God.

Too many christians today are quick to get married for selfish reasons and then again for selfish reasons they seperate. The churches have been so lax with the true meaning and purpose God has given marriage. Unhappy husbands and wives should (and would in God) work and learn to love one another. Would you be condemend for divorcing? No, but you wouldn't be listening to what God has to say.

The Greatest Commandment

"28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.” - Mark 12:28-31

reply to post by Greatest I am

"There are ample examples in scriptures where the basic law of an eye for an eye is promoted. IOW, the penalty should suit the sin."

Yes, i very much understand that religious dogma promotes bloody revenge, but some of us believe in rehabilitation, believe it works.

And sometimes it's not someone's fault they commited a "sin", especially if they were unaware of Priests and other people with extraordinary claims which have no founding. And especially if they've been indoctrinated with a specific type of ideology.

When you set up a cult that preaches eternal damnation, or human sacrifice saving an entire species in an area or age where knowledge is little, people will believe the sinister dogma, the unfalsifiable "theory" They will actually believe it is the "word of God". That's how they've gained followers for years; threats and promises. Claiming that un-baptised babies will end up in pergotory and that that your sexuality could determine whether you are a "sinner" or "not".

To say these biblical passages do not cause prejudice is to simply ignore what the bible is preaching.

Let no man fool you and keep you from the greatest, life long, very personal relationship with your loving creator standing right before you. It is not a system of controle, it is the greatest, liberation from the controle systems the world has to offer.

Man's religion is controle, not God's truth of love. Churches have been infultrated for this very reason, to keep us away from our relationship with God. It is very sad but it has been said to be so in the Word its self. Those who have infultrated the churches work for the world, not for God, it's almost no where more apparent than in the Catholic church. You know what God would want from you through love. That is not going across seas to KILL those we're supposed to pray for and love!

A Tree and Its Fruit

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Matthew 7:15-23

reply to post by Artanis667


You wrote:

["Understanding why we need to be saved from ourselves is to understand the nature of God the Father as well as our nature."]

Without being an expert in finding bible-verses, I do understand the essential doctrinal points in the christian mythology quite well. It's not that complicated, and can be understood mainly from genesis 1 and 2 and trying to get a grip on why Melchizedek suddenly turned up once again making shady deals.

Quote: ["Not one of us is perfect. When I say perfect, I mean perfect in love."]

That's sounds about correct. That's why I'm so enthusiastic about the buddhist version of compassion.

Quote: ["1 John 4:18 "The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death." Proverbs 14:27"]

You don't find it peculiar to use the bible as a reference-point to someone who considers it bosh? And anyway, I believed it was all about candyflossy love, and now there's fear in it. You trying to wneak something in through the backdoor.

Quote: ["we would not need to be saved from the punishment we deserve."]

You haven't yet evidenced this punishment we deserve. Such an evidence would be a good place to start; though I know that such a procedure is hard for theists, who prefer to start from pre-determined answers. But give it a try.

Quote: ["The fear of God is much like how a child may fear his father when he knows he's done something wrong"]

Though my mother could be unreasonable sometimes, I had the great fortune not to have had parents, who were schizoid like the alleged OT 'god'. So fear wasn't a part of my childhood.

Quote: ["The mother says "Just wait until your dad gets home!" and the child hides under his bed because he knows punishment is what he deserves."]

If this is your own experiences, I can partly understand your weird religious preference. If it's the result of reading the wrong kind of books on child-psychology and general parental behaviour, find another kind of books on the subject.

Quote: ["God the Father's nature cannot be changed and part of His nature is justice."]

It's next to impossible for schizoid mindsets to be just. They change all the time.

Quote: ["There is no other being in existance in this position."]

Sure there are. Zeus, Woden, M'bingo-m'bongo, Kali to mention some. All known for their labile temperaments.

Quote: ["What He has made and turned against Him and His creation must be taken care of, however that may be."]

That unfortunate Eden episode, when free will turned out to be contradictotory to his control-freakish'ness. Sad, but he should have foreseen it, being omniscient.

Quote: ["It's like if you were to create a sentient robot who went haywire and started breaking all the laws. Wouldn't it be your obligation to destroy what you've created?"]

Or what about this alternative, equally realistic allegory: What if you created a slave-race and they revolted?

Quote: ["When Jesus suffered on the cross, He literally took onto Himself the punishment WE deserve for our sin (transgressions of Love) so that we could live."]

Your first ASSUMPTION is still an assumption, and now you pile another one on top of it. It's almost insulting, what you think of my ability for rational reasoning. Are you used to work with intellectually underprivileged children?That would explain it.

Quote: ["The punishment cannot be dissolved because the justice of Jehovah is absolute."]

That's the second time you come with this postulate about absolute justice. But since you appear to like repetitions, I will also repeat, that schizoid personalities can't be just.

Quote: [". It had to be carried out on someone and Jesus took it for us. All Jehovah asks is that we believe the things Jesus has told us and we will recieve the forgiveness of all our transgressions of love."]

I must admit, that there is a certain primitive elegance in this stupid double-bind. As a manipulative pseudo-argument for social and spiritual engineering it has had some success; though ofcourse often helped by additional violence.

Quote: ["The bible also tells us what love is in many parts but what comes to mind is "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."]

It's a pity that the bible also tells people to be intolerant, murderous, self-conceited and fascistic, and that the christianities often prefer that version.

Quote: ["The law of God is unconditional love of Jehovah and His creation."]

Yes, exactly. We MUST love him...or else.

Quote: ["All other creation that leaves this love cannot exist into eternity. "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." - 1 john 4:8. All we need to do is see that we are inherently transgressors of love and put our faith in God and his son that He will change us and live a life we know Love would see fit."]

In other words, a perfect system for keeping slaves in their place without too much trouble. Like Massa home on the ol' plantation. Those were the days.

reply to post by bogomil


Would you rather I make a case for Jehovah God not using His word?

There's fear for your punishment because whenever you have transgressed the love of another human, you have transgressed God (sinned) Unless you do not fear punishment. If you're already perfect in love than by all means, continue to live your life as so.

You have heard the punishment of transgressing love is death. What evidence should I bring forth outside the bible? Have you known a man who has lived a life perfected in love for humanity? Lived a life of desired servatude through his working love for us?

If a child were to grow up believing he could absolutely do no wrong, who taught him that? Who didn't punish him for hating or hitting or cursing people? And if he were then to be punished, would he have any remorse? Would he feel like what he had done was wrong?

I know you hate the word fear but honestly, you never did anything you knew was wrong and then feared the rightful reaction from your parents? Or is it better to let the child do as he pleases and never know what concequences are?

In this same way the fear of God will lead a foolish man to life, without this fear he would let his desires consume him.

Do not be confused, God doesn't scare us into having faith. The fear we have comes through an understanding of our nature as well as His. It's also not a constant, it's more like, "I won't kill this person because I KNOW God disaproves" EVEN THAT is better than having no fear of the consequences of killing a man. It should be like "I wont even consider killing this person because I LOVE them!"

Fear bring a fool to wisdom, love carries him to God.

What controle did God desire of Adam and Eve? He told them to be fruitful and multiply, live on this beautiful Earth with love from above and with your partner woman I have made for you. I do not see any reason to assert God is some sort of out of bounds controle tyrant. But everything happening now is the only way it could have happend, He did know it would happen. When we are perfected in Christ we would have KNOWN the chaos and despair that was all caused by transgression of love.

Could you tell me where it says for Christians to be intolerant, murderous, self-conceited and fascistic? I could tell you where it says not to be any of those things but i'll refrain.

Do you love, love? Because if you do, you love God. God is love. How can you not love God? I'll tell you it's our nature. Why is it so hard to love? Why does hatred come up in our hearts? Why do we refer to love as clouds, rainbows, candy and unicorns? Why would we say we LOVE but then desire to destroy or shun clouds, rainbows, candy and unicorns in the same breath? It is in our awful nature to hate love and the world will tell you this. Look at what we as people think is cool or exciting? Look at what TV is full of. Where is the love? It was shoved into the corner because true love does not cater to the self.

People say slaves, PC has ruined that word, "I don't want to be a slave to anyone but myself!" How selfish, how self centered. Being a servant of God (Love) is to be a servant to others.

reply to post by Artanis667


You wrote:

["Would you rather I make a case for Jehovah God not using His word?"]

I'm not in a position to dictate what you make a case for and how. What I can do is to personally reject a mythological narrative as 'evidence'. It doesn't make the bible true, because it somewhere says about itself, that it's true.

"Actually I; Bogomil, am God. Being God and saying I'm God ofcourse makes it true." It's called circle-argumentation.

Quote: ["There's fear for your punishment because whenever you have transgressed the love of another human, you have transgressed God (sinned) Unless you do not fear punishment. If you're already perfect in love than by all means, continue to live your life as so."]

You're saying the same as in your last post. And it's still only a pile of assumptions.

Quote: ["You have heard the punishment of transgressing love is death."]

I've heard quite a lot of non-sense in my life.

Quote: ["What evidence should I bring forth outside the bible?"]

You're the one pushing the bible, not me. So that's your job. I'm in the competing crowd of the flying spaghetti monster, but we don't mission.

Quote: ["Have you known a man who has lived a life perfected in love for humanity? Lived a life of desired servatude through his working love for us?"]

Not to my knowledge. But don't let this lead you to believe, that you can push some of your fantasies at me. Have you ever met a man with a plaited skin-colour of green and violet. No??? Well there you go...the flying spaghetti monster is proved.

You see, allegories or parables AREN'T part of rational resoning, they don't have evidence value, but only illustrate some points.

You guys haven't yet understood this and tell story after story, embellish the stories, embroider on them and actually BELIEVE you have validated something.

This is in various degrees called rhetoric, demagogy, oration or scholastics, and is only an extention of subjective speculations.

Quote: ["If a child were to grow up believing he could absolutely do no wrong, who taught him that?"]

Someone like Eric Cartman's mother.

Quote: ["Who didn't punish him for hating or hitting or cursing people? And if he were then to be punished, would he have any remorse? Would he feel like what he had done was wrong?"]

I wouldn't go to the other extreme of fascistic ideology either, like the one you are suggesting.

Quote: [" I know you hate the word fear but honestly, you never did anything you knew was wrong and then feared the rightful reaction from your parents? Or is it better to let the child do as he pleases and never know what concequences are?"]

I'm old enough to be brought up with discipline. Sometimes I passed some limits, and I could momentarily be afraid of the consequences. But 'fear', never. My parents were not insane the way Jahveh is described in the bible.

Quote: ["In this same way the fear of God will lead a foolish man to life, without this fear he would let his desires consume him."]

Speak for yourself; we're not all that spineless, that we need a slave-system to lead our lives.

Quote: ["Do not be confused, God doesn't scare us into having faith."]

Disgareeing with your mythology, your assumptional reasoning and your seductive stories doesn't define anyone as 'confused'. And I don't give a hoot about what alleged methods an alleged 'god' uses to force people into submission.

You have a subjective faith in a subjective mythology. Fine with me. But if you want to push it, it needs being validated in some way to those NOT sharing your subjective values.

Quote: ["It's also not a constant, it's more like, "I won't kill this person because I KNOW God disaproves" EVEN THAT is better than having no fear of the consequences of killing a man. It should be like "I wont even consider killing this person because I LOVE them!""]

The volentary, individual ethics in secular socities are demonstrably higher than that of theocracies.

Quote: ["Fear bring a fool to wisdom, love carries him to God."]

The non-fool loves wisdom, fear brings him to 'god'. Jeeeez, how clichée-like can you carry it?

Quote: ["What controle did God desire of Adam and Eve?"]

DO NOT do this...or else. The whole thing is about obedience.

Quote: ["I do not see any reason to assert God is some sort of out of bounds controle tyrant"]

I do. And I also see this fascistic ideology saturate a great deal on the christianities (which the majority of decent christians fortunately ignore).

Quote: ["When we are perfected in Christ we would have KNOWN the chaos and despair that was all caused by transgression of love."]

Sure, jam tomorrow. And only the elect elitists can understand what's going on. For the rest: "STEP IN LINE."

Quote: ["Could you tell me where it says for Christians to be intolerant, murderous, self-conceited and fascistic? I could tell you where it says not to be any of those things but i'll refrain."]

Yes, mainly the first five books of OT. I took it for granted, that you also had read the bible. That the bible says differently somewhere else only adds a dimension of self-contradiction.

And just in case you want to start cherry-picking bible-verses, if that's your preferred way of missioning. Forget it. It's a blind alley, demonstrated by 34.000 different bible-interpretations quibbling with each other.

Quote: ["Do you love, love? Because if you do, you love God. God is love."]

Circle-argument.

Quote: ["How can you not love God?"]

For the same reasons as you don't love the flying spaghetti monster. Or Thor or Brahma.

Quote: ["I'll tell you it's our nature."]

And I tell YOU the opposite.

Quote: ["Why is it so hard to love? Why does hatred come up in our hearts? Why do we refer to love as clouds, rainbows, candy and unicorns?"]

Do you have problems about loving? I don't. So sorry, don't push your problems on me, as 'god' did on mankind.

The hate I can understand. When SS or christian soldiers burn down your home and torture you, it's easy to hate.

Quote: ["Why would we say we LOVE but then desire to destroy or shun clouds, rainbows, candy and unicorns in the same breath? It is in our awful nature to hate love and the world will tell you this."]

If you associated with more non-theists/non-christians, you would probably see a much more attractive part of mankind than you do now. Or maybe it's a bitterness about being a so-and-so preacher (I'm afraid you won't convert anyone with your sugarcoated demagogy) making you see mankind this way.

But what do I know about your problems? Only that they shouldn't motivate you to tell people to become like you.

Quote: ["Look at what we as people think is cool or exciting?"]

What would you expect of talking monkeys, who never had a chance to grow up, because various fascistic ideologies have tried to run their lives for them for thousands of years. Look at yourself, promoting a religion for slaves, without the smallest amount of reason.

Quote: ["Look at what TV is full of."]

Don't have a TV.

Quote: ["Where is the love? It was shoved into the corner because true love does not cater to the self."]

Instead of preaching ABOUT it here, use your time sensibly and go out and create love. Many admirable christians do that, I respect them highly and have on occasion helped their efforts to a great extent.

You just waste time here on your missionary obsession, ....that because you need a sky-daddy everybody must have one.

Quote: ["People say slaves, PC has ruined that word, "I don't want to be a slave to anyone but myself!""]

Speak for yourself. You can model mankind's general behaviour and motives from your own shortcomings.

Quote: [" How selfish, how self centered. Being a servant of God (Love) is to be a servant to others."]

That's why buddhism can be so attractive. It practises, what many of your ilk only preach about and then secretly do the opposite of.

reply to post by bogomil


I'm not attempting to convert anyone here, I'm trying to explain what I know to be in the bible. From there I'm trying to answer your questions.

Allegories and parables can very much be part of rational reasoning, in fact it can make an understanding easier to come to. Granted mine arn't so great, they can be very self-evident.

To suggest someones parents were insane because the child may have feared punishment, I don't understand. To say Jehovah is insane is likely to just believe Richard Dawkings or Christopher Hitchens or any one of the others in a plethora of people dedicated to attacking christianity specificly these days. If you read the bible with an open heart and ask God to show you truth, you'll see His answers are always consistant in value.

The fact you still see this as some sort of ultimate slave system shows me that you haven't seen the point i'm trying to make here. Love doesn't fulfill the evil desires of others, what worldy use is a slave if you can't get them to do the dirty work for you, so to speak?

Force people into submission of Love? We know you can't do that.

I assume you see all values as subjective?

Did you have a problem being obedient to your parents who loved you? "Please take out the trash", "NO! You don't controle me! I'm no slave!" Most likely not. It was probably more like "Please take out the trash", "Ok". That's being obedient. Why did you do it? Why may have you been happy to be obedient? Because of love.

I'm very aware of cherry picking and I can assure you that's not what i'm doing. To be "Christian" is to follow Christ of the NT. Through Him, God has set the standard of the forgiving love for Jews and Gentiles world-wide until the physical manifestation of His kingdom. It is not self-contradicting to dismiss old laws for a people in a much different time. The people who died before Christ and were not part of Jehova's people will be treated much differently than those who outright reject Jesus and His teachings.

Like I said before, if you believe you are already perfected in love, pay no attention to Jesus because He doesn't apply to you then.

I come from a path of involvment in sleep paralysis, astral projection, night terrors, ethereal entities I know where outside myself, family involvment in freemasonary, Shiners and a few other, smaller lodges / fraternities. Pornogrophy and drugs were my crutches in times of darkness and THANK GOD He came to me and lead me away from those strange practices. Love really does work in you to show you the path to life, to give reasons to your actions and not just based on desires of the flesh for the self.

I used to believe we were God and so many today now do to. What they lead you to is a life of self-servatude. I say they because this belief system isn't entirely of human influence.

Almost no one I know is like I am, I have a couple, at best, friends that are agnostic. All the rest are athiests, moreso with the way I aligned my belief in the past. I do not prescribe myself as a preacher, i'm mainly trying to answer what has been asked of me. I know I can get a little off topic but I think most of it pertains to the questions.

The idea that another man can controle you because of your personal relationship with God doesn't make sense to me. Or that your relationship would keep you from growing up, ascending, however you mean. Love is the key to it all, without love there is nothing.

"Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you."

“If you have played the fool and exalted yourself,
or if you have planned evil,
clap your hand over your mouth!
For as churning the milk produces butter,
and as twisting the nose produces blood,
so stirring up anger produces strife.”

James 4:10 Proverbs 30:32-33

By all means, believe as you will. I'm answering what has been asked of me.

reply to post by Artanis667


You wrote:

["I'm not attempting to convert anyone here, I'm trying to explain what I know to be in the bible. From there I'm trying to answer your questions"]

You're presenting exclusive 'absolute truths', leaving no room for alternative answers. That's what I call missioning.

Quote: ["Allegories and parables can very much be part of rational reasoning, in fact it can make an understanding easier to come to. Granted mine arn't so great, they can be very self-evident."]

They are not a part of rational reasoning. They are an external support without any intrinsic 'truth'.

Quote: [" To say Jehovah is insane is likely to just believe Richard Dawkings or Christopher Hitchens or any one of the others in a plethora of people dedicated to attacking christianity specificly these days."]

I'm not directly familiar with Dawkings' or Hitchens' material. My opinions are my own.

Quote: ["If you read the bible with an open heart and ask God to show you truth, you'll see His answers are always consistant in value."]

Are there 'authorized' methods of heart-opening, because it seems to me, that many who relate to the bible claim to use this method and come out with different interpretations. I read the bible with an analytical mind, which could bring us into a debate of the 'correct' way of bible-reading (sofar resulting in 34.000 different claims).

Quote: ["The fact you still see this as some sort of ultimate slave system shows me that you haven't seen the point i'm trying to make here."]

I believe, I understand your position. I just don't agree with it.

Quote: ["Love doesn't fulfill the evil desires of others, what worldy use is a slave if you can't get them to do the dirty work for you, so to speak?"]

You start from your pre-determined answer and a situation you have arranged, so your pre-determined answer is the only option. I start from the beginning, with observable facts/information and work my way towards an answer.

Quote: ["Force people into submission of Love? We know you can't do that."]

Probably not. But you can brainwash people into a darned good simulation.

Quote: ["I assume you see all values as subjective?"]

Eventually, yes. But that 'eventually' has never been reached in my 1½ year on ATS. In the meantime I have some semi/'local'-truths, I can operate with. E.g. science/logic concerning cosmos.

Quote: ["Did you have a problem being obedient to your parents who loved you?"]

Certainly. I'm a stubborn and querulous person.

Quote on taking out the ttrash: ["That's being obedient. Why did you do it? Why may have you been happy to be obedient? Because of love."]

I did it, because somebody had to. The idea of living with an excess of mutated fruit-flies can motivate anyone to take out the trash.

Quote: ["I'm very aware of cherry picking and I can assure you that's not what i'm doing."]

Good, I just mentioned it preventatively. You're more in the allegory department.

Quote: ["To be "Christian" is to follow Christ of the NT."]

I'm convinced, that many calling themselves 'christians' would debate on the extent of OT inclusion. In any case you can never get around genesis 2 and Melchizedek, as the bases for redemption.

Quote: ["Through Him, God has set the standard of the forgiving love for Jews and Gentiles world-wide until the physical manifestation of His kingdom"]

I can for a moment go with the whole set of assumptions you put up, at least as a textual analysis of what the characeters did and said. This does not imply any 'reality' context whatsoever.

Quote: ["It is not self-contradicting to dismiss old laws for a people in a much different time."]

You still need original sin and Melchizedek, and it's far from convincing as an explanation of the mood-changes in the obviously schizoid Jahveh.

Quote: ["The people who died before Christ and were not part of Jehova's people will be treated much differently than those who outright reject Jesus and His teachings."]

We still haven't decided precisely on the important point. You have toned down 'law',...OK, left is still 'faith' and 'do-gooding' (as a practical manifestation, I'm counting missioning under 'faith'). Buddhists DO, christians TALK.

Quote: ["Like I said before, if you believe you are already perfected in love, pay no attention to Jesus because He doesn't apply to you then."]

Please: Look up 'double-bind'.

Quote: ["I come from a path of involvment in sleep paralysis, astral projection, night terrors, ethereal entities I know where outside myself,"]

I've had more than my share of some of this.

Quote: ["Pornogrophy and drugs were my crutches in times of darkness and THANK GOD"]

I like mature whiskey on occasion (the only legal 'drug' here). Pornography bores me, it can never compete with the real thing.

Quote: [" He came to me and lead me away from those strange practices. Love really does work in you to show you the path to life, to give reasons to your actions and not just based on desires of the flesh for the self."]

As I've said before (though a spelling-mistake made my point omprecise); this is based on your needs and your life and not necessarily of value for other people.

Quote: ["I used to believe we were God and so many today now do to. What they lead you to is a life of self-servatude. I say they because this belief system isn't entirely of human influence."]

You oversimplify the optional versions of that model, and besides any suggestions of 'satanic' origin is just another of your doctrinal postulates.

Quote: ["I do not prescribe myself as a preacher, i'm mainly trying to answer what has been asked of me"]

I have definitely not asked you about anything in the direction of your answers, I have mostly opposed you. If you take opposition as 'asking' it's on you.

And no offence. You haven't said anything, I haven't heard many times before, even the 'loving parent/god allegory', which pops up with depressing regularity here.

Quote: ["I know I can get a little off topic but I think most of it pertains to the questions."]

No worries. So do I. And my language can be stilted and circumstantial; it's not stylistic skills counting.

Quote: ["The idea that another man can controle you because of your personal relationship with God doesn't make sense to me. Or that your relationship would keep you from growing up, ascending, however you mean."]

You can be a really nice person, when you stop pushing. But here it comes:

If there is no 'god', it's obvious that I'm living my life according to a book or to an interpretator of it.

If there is a 'god' as described in the bible, I reject him in any case and join with Lucifer, whom I consider a much more sympathetic entity.

Quote: ["Love is the key to it all, without love there is nothing."]

I don't operate with such 'absolute' positions as you do. I include my intellect, and the fact that I have a physical body.

Quote: ["I'm answering what has been asked of me."]

Asked by whom? I have asked you for evidence, which hasn't been presented yet; and I'm NOT a gnostic atheist, actually not an atheist at all, though I do share some common points with some of them. so my expectations of evidence is not ALL hard-science.

reply to post by bogomil


I appriciate your more constructive input but I think we're seeing here, why, these types of debate go on for ages. Not that either one of us expected otherwise of course. Going from the bottom up

I don't know what or how to present evidence other than scripture or other ways I have been. I suppose testimony may be another way but im almost certain that would be considered hearsay. We both know i'm not going to be able to write up a scientific theory based on method and results or present mathematical formulas that say "Jesus was right". I don't believe you've said that you're buddhist, just that it interested you but i'll ask this anyway. What if I were to say "reincarnation is fake" how would you be able to show me otherwise with the type of evidence you want to see from me? How would that look, so I can get an idea of what it is. Maybe that was a bad question, if so, ignore.

I guess what I can say from my experience, the proof I have has been through my life, the real, strong feelings that have shaped my heart, the powerful experiences and realizations that God is in controle of everything. Everything serves it's purpose to God, wether that purpose is known to them or not. Of course the things im talking about are nearly impossible to convay in an equal way they were to me, seeking and seeing God's work within you for yourself is the only way. Ask and you shall recieve

If you honestly believe "Lucifer" to be a more sympethetic character than Jehova or the son Jesus, I suggest you look at the nature of Satan. His very being is the opposite of everything love is. He's the one in controle of the worlds systems, all of them that have any extending power. If after realizing that Satan hates and has no capacity for love, you still would side with him over God, that's your choice.

"With persuasive words she led him astray;
she seduced him with her smooth talk.
All at once he followed her
like an ox going to the slaughter,
like a deerb stepping into a noose
till an arrow pierces his liver,
like a bird darting into a snare,
little knowing it will cost him his life."
-proverbs 7:21-23

We both know neither buddhists or christians can only talk or only do. You have to talk sometime and you have to do something eventually. The only difference I see is that people talking about buddhism arn't nearly as publicised.

Christians cannot include laws from the OT that are not ment for them.

Could you explain what you mean about Melchizedek? As far as I know, he's only in Genesis 14 for a short time.

Have you loved someone and they asked you to do something you may or may not felt like doing, but you did it anyway because you love them? Do you see this as obedience?

I don't see how science or logic concerning the cosmos relates to values. Unless you mean something like, a tribes practices to replace the vegetation they take, if that is seen as a value. Maybe that was just a bad example :/

Really the only conclusion you can come to is that if you ask for it, God will open your heart. It's fine however you read the bible, but don't read it to "see what all this nonsense is about". If you come with an expecting mind, that's how you'll see it. Pray, ask God, who IS there and will hear you, to lead you, give you discernment.