'Justified' Torture: Terrorize world for sake of US security?

reply to post by beezzer


beezzer,

I have to disagree with you on this matter. Regardless of the circumstances, what is being done is illegal. You, or someone else, can throw the name Dr. Yoo out there and try to show that it is in fact legal but I refuse to agree with that.

What I really don't get is how someone such as yourself, a self-proclaimed Tea Party member, can so easily discard the US Constitution when it strikes you as expedient. I thought the Tea Party was very dedicated to seeing to the restoration of this document. Sounds to me like you are treating it like a Chinese buffet, taking the parts you like and leaving the rest.

Naturally, I mean no disrespect. It wouldn't be an interesting post if I didn't get a little back-and-forth with you.



Cheers!

Originally posted by aptness
reply to post by UcDat

 

I’m not entirely sure why you are telling me this. I was never in favor of the war in Iraq, and I’ve always disagreed with the tactic and methods used in Afghanistan and the so called “war on terrorism” generally.

Using the military to occupy entire countries to hunt a few criminals is beyond stupid — it’s counterproductive, very demanding on our troops and financially expensive.

And no, nothing justifies torture. You, and beezeer, are entitled to your opinions, but they are legally and morally wrong opinions nonetheless.

I was just responding to your support of the assassination of OBL and your statement about the double standard. Like I said I respect your posts and your opinion but I disagree about both those points.
As for the torture thing I'm very much against it as you can tell but I cant say I wouldn't use it could save my family. I mean if you and a buddy kidnapped my kids and I got my hands on one of you and the only way to find them was to torture you. What would you do?
And ya I guess that makes me a hypocrite but its the truth love isnt always rational.

Sure water boarding is torture - the least damaging but still effective form they can muster - used very sparingly on terrorists to gather crucial information.

I am so tired of all the 'holier than thou' head trippers lecturing me about how evil the US is - here is how China does it to force political dissidents to confesss to imaginary crimes.

WND Exclusive FAITH UNDER FIRE Torture? See how China gets its way with victim Video of last 'suspect' used to coerce 'confessions' Posted: May 07, 2011 12:00 am Eastern By Michael Carl © 2011 WorldNetDaily

China It's a new high-tech torture, officials say. In China, officials severely tortured Christian human rights lawyer Gao Zhisheng with the camera running and then coerced a tax evasion "confession" from artist and dissident Ai Weiwei by showing him the Gao video, and warning him that's what could be coming. The details are graphic. A Christian Newswire statement says electric shock was a part of Gao's torture. "Fu Zhenghua, the chief of the Beijing Municipal Public Security Bureau, instructed those handling the case to show Ai Weiwei the video of Gao Zhisheng being tortured, including shots of electric batons being inserted into Gao's anus and his blood, semen, feces, and urine spurting out," a China Aid report said. "Fu Zhenghua also issued an order saying: Whatever methods were used on Gao Zhisheng, use the same ones to make Ai Weiwei give in. After several consecutive days of torture, Ai Weiwei was finally compelled to sign a statement of confession, admitting to tax evasion," the China Aid report added.

China Aid spokesman Mark Shan says the video was obtained entirely by the police for use in the torture of other Chinese dissidents. "The footage is not news video footage. It was a movie by the Chinese government. The torture is real and is known as a worldwide tragedy," Shan said. Shan also pointed to a January report that gave some of the details of Gao's torture. (Story continues below) Read more: Torture? See how China gets its way with victims www.wnd.com...

reply to post by Hessling

The Eighth Amendment (Amendment VIII) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights which prohibits the federal government from imposing excessive bail, excessive fines or cruel and unusual punishments. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that this amendment's Cruel and Unusual Punishment Clause applies to the states. The phrases employed originated in the English Bill of Rights of 1689.

en.wikipedia.org...

Good point.

My counterpoint?
The specifics state "cruel and unusual punishment". Punishment is defined as

pun·ish·ment/ˈpəniSHmənt/Noun
1. The infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.
2. The penalty inflicted.

dictionary.reference.com...

As an individual, I cannot impose penalty, judgement for an offense.
It says nothing about eliciting information.

And it's all good. I jumped on this thread for some good debate.

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


well I aint no holier than anyone...
but this is like saying its ok to for me to steal because other people steal more...

just saying and for the record I dont hate the USA heck I still think its the greatest country on earth and Im Canadian lol but I dont like some of its policies and the direction its taken since especially since 9/11

Originally posted by UcDat
As for the torture thing I'm very much against it as you can tell but I cant say I wouldn't use it could save my family. I mean if you and a buddy kidnapped my kids and I got my hands on one of you and the only way to find them was to torture you. What would you do?

Ha, the ticking bomb scenario à la 24. That show sure was a treat for the torture cheerleaders.

If you, or I, tortured people, even if it was in that incredibly improbable scenario, we would go to jail.

If you feel this way about torture why not support its use in other situations, against other criminals? Why not torture a drug dealer to give up all his connections? A murderer or a rapist to confess?

And ya I guess that makes me a hypocrite but its the truth love isnt always rational.

And when George Bush authorized these techniques he did it out of love for us

reply to post by aptness


you make it sound like I supported bushes crimes why just cause I called out the ones Obama's done?
Seriously never was a fan of lies or crimes no matter what politician is responcible...

as for the torture thing no I dont condone it at all just saying in that situation I wont say I wouldnt
So again what would you do if it was get the info or have your family die?

double post

Torture doesn't work.

If you torture a guy long enough, he will tell you he built the moon with paper clips. It just isn't effective. It's medievil antics and has no value at all.

This Khalied Sheik Mohammed (spelling?? sorry), is supposedly a terrific resistor to the torture. I don;t know if it's true or not, but it does go to show that if a guy is waterboarded 183 times that something isn't working. Does it make me smile that the man suffered? A little. Just being honest. I don't like radical Muslims who consider me an infidel worthy of death. That said though, I am Joe Blow, not the US Government. I do not set an example for free society. I go to ATS and babble.

What the United States needs to do is set an example. Set an example for the world to see. Whether or not they follow it is not the issue. The issue is that if we as a nation want to be the best and most justified that we can be; we musn't get caught up in the actions of evil men. I am not saying we shouldn't punish those who are found guilty of crimes. Only that bamboo shoots under nails, waterboarding and electrified bed frames should be left to Hanoi, and Rambo movies. The United States tries to represent to the globe that they are the model of a free and just society. You cannot have that and at the same time torture people for intel.

It has nothing to do with weakness either. It is actually harder and takes a stronger society to abide by basic morality and not torture people. Completely contradictory to what Sarah Palin might think. She sees weakness where I see srength. I feel it's easy to torture.

reply to post by beezzer

I found it funny you tried to justify torture in the Constitution by parsing the words and meanings of the 8th Amendment, in true John Yoo form.

The 8th Amendment, however, applies to conditions imposed by a sentence following a criminal conviction. It’s the 5th Amendment that protects against torture.

Originally posted by UcDat
you make it sound like I supported bushes crimes why just cause I called out the ones Obama's done?

No. I mentioned Bush because he was the one that authorized the techniques. And you were justifying something you’d hypothetically do out of ‘love.’ So I joked with that.

as for the torture thing no I dont condone it at all just saying in that situation I wont say I wouldnt
So again what would you do if it was get the info or have your family die?

What does it matter what you would do if you were put in that position? It doesn’t change the law.

Who will stop the US? This is what I wonder. The US government have proved time after time they don't care much for human life. They use the military as a means to kill who ever they like, class it as war and they get away with murder.

And although most of the world is aware of Americas blood lust, people still some how hold it with high esteem. As though they are the most civilised nation and they lead by example.

When the US falls, and greater nations are done with being dominated, who will come to the side of America?


( Please note when i say "US" or "Americans" I am talking about the government and not the citizens.)

reply to post by beezzer


Excuse the lateness of my reply.

Seriously, you are parsing words. Torture has been defined, correct me if I'm wrong, repeatedly in courts around the world. Furthermore we've signed treaties to the effect that we will, under any and all circumstances, respect the ban on torture as defined by International Law.

You simply cannot change such a significant commitment such as this just because circumstances have shifted. This is where we embark on dangerous territory. Very dangerous in America.

That being said...

And it's all good. I jumped on this thread for some good debate.

Me too!

Originally posted by aptness
reply to post by beezzer

 

I found it funny you tried to justify torture in the Constitution by parsing the words and meanings of the 8th Amendment, in true John Yoo form.

The 8th Amendment, however, applies to conditions imposed by a sentence following a criminal conviction. It’s the 5th Amendment that protects against torture.

The Fifth Amendment (Amendment V) to the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, protects against abuse of government authority in a legal procedure. Its guarantees stem from English common law which traces back to the Magna Carta in 1215. For instance, grand juries and the phrase "due process" both trace their origin to the Magna Carta.

If I feel that any info that I obtain could prevent more deaths then I'm going for the thumbscrews.

reply to post by Hessling


You're right. And the law is evident. And for every poster here, they are also morally correct. Torturing another human being is an ugly, nasty disgusting act. It darkens the soul. It leaves a taint that nothing can cleanse.

Would that stop me from doing it to potentialy save another life/lives?

Not a chance in hell. But that is a personal issue. One between me, the harm I'd cause and my personal diety.

I wonder what they do and have done to our guys. We never saw inside those flag draped coffins. We did get to see what they did to Berg. Slice and dice anyone? The truth is never told by these devils who run the world. I do wonder why they just but a bullet in Osama's head instead of interrogating him. I guess they figured that the stuff they took from his compound (and released to public) were all that he had going. Oh wait, if they put him on trial, he might tell some pretty nutty NWO stuff.

The only thing that torture proves is that we are so disconnected from our humanity and civility that we actually take pleasure or fun out of the torturing of another.

There are serial killers who love to torture their victims, child molesters torture their victims by employing torture makes us no better then those we claim to oppose.

Torture solves nothing and is wrong regardless of the circumstances because one we do everything our forefathers fought and died for will have meant nothing. We are better then that, we must be better then that, we will be better then that!

Treat your prisoner like a human and perhaps you'd build a repertoire that will provide more concrete intel as it has been proven on numerous occasions that when you torture someone younger then 30 that they will admit to killing JFK, planning Oklahoma City Bombing, killing MLK and being involved in the coverup at Roswell in 1947. Most models are useless and inhumane, to provide a definitive answer as to wether or not The practice of Waterboarding was torture I actually allowed myself to get waterboarded and proved without a shadow of a doubt that it was torture. This was sometime Early to Mid 05 or 06 (Do not ask how, what, or why) but soon thereafter the public debate on tv pretty well subsided.

Only animals torture other animals, Are we animals or are we humans?

When we torture the TERRORISTS WIN!