5 guns found under 9 year olds bed! (Time for the UK to admit that our gun policy doesn't work?)

I'm in a pretty small minority of people in the UK that actually think that our gun laws are not really very helpful as all they seem to achieve is keeping guns out of the hands of law abiding people and are not effective at all at keeping them out of the hands of criminals.

A story that has been in the UK news today is the conviction of 2 men for the murder of 16 year old Agnes Sina-Inakoju during a gang revenge attack, during the attack a 9mm Agram sub-machine gun was fired through the window of a pizza shop window.
You can see the cctv footage of it here it lasts just a few seconds


During the subsequent investigation and police raids on gang members houses 5 guns were found including a mac 10 that was found stashed under a 9 year old childs bed

This picture shows the astonishing arsenal of weapons stashed under the bed of a nine-year-old boy which was discovered by police investigating the fatal shooting of a schoolgirl.
The shocking collection of firearms and ammunition was discovered by officers following the death of Agnes Suina-Inakoju, the unwitting victim of gang warfare who was shot as she chatted with friends inside a take away.
Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk...

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In a separate article it is shown that the same aqram had been used in at least 7 different shootings across london
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"It is quite common for guns to get passed around between gangs and sometimes get stolen by other gangs

Link

I know that the UK guns laws have probably been debated a lot on ATS but it seems to me that it always comes down to UK people pointing out the much higher gun crime rate in the US and saying that indicates that if guns were easier to legally obtain in the UK we would follow suit never mentioning that the vast majority of European countries also have a much higher rate of gun ownership then in the UK and have an overall homicide rate comparable to ours..

It seem to me though that guns are already extremely easy to obtain in the UK as long as you are prepared to go outside of the law to get them, I don't see how we could make our laws on owning guns any tighter then they are already and so isn't it time we rethought our strategy on this, as the one we have now doesn't seem to be keeping guns out of the hands of criminals at all

My Mum lives in the UK, and her boyfriend is an avid collector of antique guns.

Now, antique guns, even those that work perfectly fine, are not covered by the UK licensing laws.

The last time the gun inspector came out, he was admiring the collection of antique guns in the gun cabinet. After the inspection, Chris made several lead shot (he also collects bullet making tools), and they spend a while firing them off in the back yard (they live in a very rural area). He even showed off his newly acquired punt gun (if you don't know what it is, google it for a giggle), and again, gun inspector suitably impressed. Chris has THIRTY SEVEN guns on his UK license, plus the antique ones not listed.

The gun inspector commented on what a great inspection it was and left ....

Trouble is, all of the regular guns were actually on the living room floor being cleaned, not in the cabinet at all.

Conservative estimates about 4 million illegal guns in the UK. Broader estimates put it at around 17 million.

And those numbers are about 6 years old. No doubt the number is only going up.

But it won't change. Head in the sand is preferable to reality every time.


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He has 5 while i have none, it cannot be

reply to post by babybunnies


Oh thank you for that information.
I'm not sure how much luck I would have with a musket against a mac 10 but a punt gun looks like a good home defense weapon

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Those other European countries you speak of (namely Switzerland?) are vastly different to the UK and USA.

Namely they treat guns with respect and for sport and defence. Can you imagine if everyone had access to guns in the UK?, it would propably be worse than in America. Look how bad it is with knives.

Didnt USA even base its 'gun laws' on the Swiss ideal?, yet look at how different the two versions have turned out..

The general public in England is just not capable of the responisbility of having easy access to guns,and it must never be allowed to happen.

Crimminals will always find a way of getting guns, no matter how tough the law is

yes im afraid here in the uk if someone says you cant do something you can bet your life they will,no guns?well its a lot easier to get hold of guns in uk if u have a bit of flash cash..IGRAM im sure u meant INGRAM.....i dont see an ingram in the picture also i see ammo for weapons that are not there i think the pic is not from this news source imo

reply to post by alex1879


I don't really think the UK public a will automatically start shooting each other just because they have access to a gun

From the most recent stats I can find (2010) the UK already has a higher homicide rate then Greece Portugal Denmark Spain German to name but a few and they are all countries that have easier access to guns then us.
If the point of the gun laws is to reduce the number of people being killed, something that it seemingly doesn't do then clearly then law doesn't work in it's present state

How do we know (for example) that the general public having access to guns wouldn't decrease the crime rate by acting as a deter-ant to the criminals that in the present moment know that they are always going to be the only person with a gun in any given situation.

From the most recent stats I can find (2010) the UK already has a higher homicide rate then Greece Portugal Denmark Spain German to name but a few and they are all countries that have easier access to guns then us. If the point of the gun laws is to reduce the number of people being killed, something that it seemingly doesn't do then clearly then law doesn't work in it's present state

Maybe England is just filled with more thugs with less respect for life. In Switzerland there is a lot of 'beatings' but very rare that you would get shot or knifed. Over here they just have no resepct for life, means nothing to them to shoot or knife a stranger on the street.

You're right the law could be imporved somehow, but not by relaxing it in anyway. its possible that letting everyone have a gun to defend themselves against the gangs will just mean more people caught in the crossfire. Seems to me most gun crime is commited against other gangs, businesses rather thant home owners of the general public (except those getting caught in the shots). Whereas knives are used on anyone for any reason

Just today on the estate where i work there was a police operation that seized 9 weapons in total. 5 shotguns and 4 gats.

First knives were the big thing, now it seems guns are readily available. I remember a kid i used to go to school with started dealing drugs and got a bb gun m92f replica bored out to fire live rounds. He got it done so cheap aswell....

Just goes to show if you know where to look and who to talk to you can get anything. I bet it aint that hard to get a 74 SU if you know how

Originally posted by davesmart
yes im afraid here in the uk if someone says you cant do something you can bet your life they will,no guns?well its a lot easier to get hold of guns in uk if u have a bit of flash cash..IGRAM im sure u meant INGRAM.....i dont see an ingram in the picture also i see ammo for weapons that are not there i think the pic is not from this news source imo

I belive you will find the Agram is a real weapon..as advised in the below link..

Agram 2000

It is used by the croation army. Now, the question is...how did it get into the UK?

The croatian maffia is probably the toughest in the world.
Its no surprise theres agrams for sale to 9 yr old kids.
Wat does get me is that honest hard wroking people have no defence against these thugs.
Police are for after the fact not preemptive.
When something bad is happening, its usually up to the victim to figure a way out...
Taking away his option for self defence is ridiculous.

reply to post by stirling


It would be interesting to research how a gun like that finds its way to the UK, it isn't one I had ever heard off before today. All of their little collection of arms looks pretty battered and worn out

Gun laws are simply ridiculous unless you assume keeping defense weapons out of the hands of sane and rational people is a good idea. Let us look at a hypothetical situation here:

A man has foul intentions as he walks into a coffee shop, he has a gun hidden in his jacket which he is ready to pull out and use to threaten the cashier with so he can take the money. As he reaches into his jacket to pull out the gun another man in the store sees what is occurring and he draws out his gun and shoots the robber in the arm. Hearing what happens people flee and two other men come to assist.

In that even who is successful? Is it the armed robber or the armed civilians? I think we know what the answer is to that question. So from that point forward how willing would the common criminal be to rob a store again or for their first time knowing that there could always be someone else in there quick on the draw and willing to stand up and protect human life? They would think twice before robbing anyone or any store.

Also I have to ask, do you have any statistics on what the violent crime rate is among each demographic? Because as I look at the pictures and names of these two criminals I see a Muslim and an African, does this demographic have a disproportionate violent crime rate in relation to their percentage share of population in Great Britain?

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Originally posted by Misoir


A man has foul intentions as he walks into a coffee shop, he has a gun hidden in his jacket which he is ready to pull out and use to threaten the cashier with so he can take the money. As he reaches into his jacket to pull out the gun another man in the store sees what is occurring and he draws out his gun and shoots the robber in the arm. Hearing what happens people flee and two other men come to assist.


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edit on 4/12/2011 by Misoir because: (no reason given)

You have a good point. But it banks on the fact that there would be a armed responsible person present. It could turn into a bloody shootout. Would those scum really care that other people may be armed? i have doubts about that. Surely not worth the risk of letting guns into the masses. It might work with legalising drugs, but not with guns.

Take a look at this interesting (and legal) site, they have live assualt rifles for sale, i wonder how you can get a license for those? www.gunstar.co.uk...

Originally posted by alex1879


Take a look at this interesting (and legal) site, they have live assualt rifles for sale, i wonder how you can get a license for those? www.gunstar.co.uk...

Are you sure?
All the ones I can see are either replicas, deactivated or blank firing

www.gunstar.co.uk...

My mistake i got carried away in the excitement, it is live but .22 damm

reply to post by KingDoey


Just how would a bb gun load and fire 9mm rounds? would the metal be strong enough? how would the mag fit properly? I don't buy that at all.

Hi, as a person that spent a lot of time in the UK, I'd say that the problem purely lies with the gang attitude, not with the gun laws.

I'm Greek, apart from the fact that a lot of the locals already legally hold assault rifles at home (national guard) you can easily find a battered AK47 for roughly €300. Pistols & other kit is easily available through illegal channels. Gun laws are tough, but in a country that stands in the middle of lots of things going on, weapons of all kind are abundant.

Having said that, I'm shocked that you mention that gun crime in the UK is higher than Greece in particular...

I always thought that it is nearly impossible to find a weapon in the UK.

There cant be that many guns in the hands of criminals, if that one gun was passed around several gangs and is responsible for 6 murders. I heard on the news that by finding this stash of weapons gun crime in london will be reduced by 40%. I'm not sure how I feel about the gun laws in the UK. I guess if your not really involved in Gangs, crime or hunting you dont really come across them.