Presenting the First Chinese Aircraft Carrier

Originally posted by SLAYER69
It's not prideful. I love how that hamster wheel in your head is spinning and you make assumptions.

I don't have to make assumptions. You're pretending like you personally are aware, or that you somehow know that the US military is aware, of every military asset of the Chinese government. What is that based on? So far it looks like it's based on nothing but arrogance.

Remember what Donald Rumsfeld said about Iraq? Something about, we know what we know, but we don't know what we don't know? Yeah, you'll find that out once SHTF.

I'm talking about how the Cat and Mouse Sub game has been played. I'm sorry you're not aware of it and make another assumption about what the capabilities of the various navies of the world are or are not capable of.

Well apparently you think the US knows everything about China's military, but the simple fact that they surfaced a sub right next to one of our aircraft carriers is proof enough that that's a foolhardy mentality. I don't understand how you even think it's logical that it's impossible for the Chinese to keep a secret from the US. It's obviously not founded on anything close to rigorous logic. It sounds emotional to me.


And you know what? They surfaced that sub next to our aircraft carrier on purpose.

You think they're showing their hand, maybe that's 20 year old technology and they have no use for it anymore anyway.

How would you know? Nobody was expecting it to even surface next to one of our carriers in the first place. Surprise surprise.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Well apparently you think the US knows everything about China's military, but the simple fact that they surfaced a sub right next to one of our aircraft carriers is proof enough that that's a foolhardy mentality. I don't understand how you even think it's logical that it's impossible for the Chinese to keep a secret from the US. It's obviously not founded on anything close to rigorous logic. It sounds emotional to me.

Tons of Assumptions about what I think. Go ahead make them meanwhile go back and read what I've written and tell me where I said the US knows everything?

And you know what? They surfaced that sub next to our aircraft carrier on purpose.

Exactly right for EGO. Nothing more and guess what that sub is marked.

You think they're showing their hand, maybe that's 20 year old technology and they have no use for it anymore anyway.

How would you know? Nobody was expecting it to even surface next to one of our carriers in the first place. Surprise surprise.

[

As I've stated that is how the game is played. AGAIN

I'm sorry you don't understand that this is how the game is played. We sneak around them they sneak around us. Each side tries to outdo the other. However the Smart thing to do is NOT repeat NOT surface and give away that you had them.

Ask any submariner.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Tons of Assumptions about what I think. Go ahead make them meanwhile go back and read what I've written and tell me where I said the US knows everything?

My mistake, then you admit China could have something up it's sleeve that we aren't aware of.

That's the only logical position anyway, unless you think you personally know everything they possess.

And you know what? They surfaced that sub next to our aircraft carrier on purpose.

Exactly right for EGO. Nothing more and guess what that sub is marked.

Actually Westerners are known for having much bigger egos than your typical Asian, so I find this hard to believe. More likely it's you dismissing it as some egotistical move by projecting your own mentality onto the Chinese.

I'm sorry you don't understand that this is how the game is played. We sneak around them they sneak around us. Each side tries to outdo the other. However the Smart thing to do is NOT repeat NOT surface and give away that you had them.

Ask any submariner.

That's why I'm saying you are jumping to conclusions saying it was pure ego that caused them to do that. As far as you know that sub may have been obsolete anyway, and they were just seeing if we were still that far behind.

You see?

You don't know.

Originally posted by bsbray11

My mistake

Glad you admitted it.

Good start.

then you admit China could have something up it's sleeve that we aren't aware of.

Do you know what type of boat they were using?

[Yes] Subs are referred to as boats....

A diesel Electric. [which run quieter for short periods of time] The US navy hadn't had to track one since the Soviet Union broke up back in 1991. So yes it took them by surprise. The Problem with Diesel electric is that they have to surface to run their diesel motors often to recharge their batteries not exactly the safest thing to do if you were at war. They are relics.

That's the only logical position anyway, unless you think you personally know everything they possess.
You don't know.

I knew the type of Boat they were in.
Did you?

I also now that was like 4 or 5 years ago and the Sub Surfaced within possible torpedo range not as you stated [Right next to the Carrier] A highly inflated exaggeration. I'm also not surprised that one would have such an opinion of the situation if one never bothered to look into the details of the case.

I also know that simply regurgitating the same erroneous claims of Right next to the Carrier story plays well online in chat forums but that's not the truth also the US Navy hasn't stood still.

Virginia-class submarine

Photonics Masts
Instead of a traditional periscope, the class utilizes a pair of telescoping photonics masts...

Sonar
The Virginia class submarines are equipped with a bow-mounted spherical active/passive sonar array, a wide aperture lightweight fiber optic sonar array...

Propulsion
The class also makes use of pump-jet propulsors, which significantly reduces the risks of cavitation, allowing for quieter and faster operations....


USS California will be the first Virginia with the advanced electromagnetic signature reduction system built in, but this will be retrofitted into the other submarines of the class.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by bsbray11
My mistake

Glad you admitted it.

Good start.

You know it's hard to really pin you down to any specific claims anyway since you only seem to make insinuations. You're very good at not stating the main points you seem to be dancing around.


As long as you're fine with the fact that the Chinese could always have something up their sleeves that we don't know about, just like we could have something up our sleeves that they don't know about, I have no conflict with you.


It was just your insinuation that the Chinese can keep no secrets from us, that I found ignorant. But if you weren't actually making that insinuation, then fine! We have no disagreements.



Also I find it impressive that your post received 4 stars within only a few minutes after you posted, and now over an hour later, it's still at 4 stars. Apparently all your fans follow directly on your coat tails. Where have I seen that kind of forum activity before? I've been around these forums for a couple years myself after all. You must be more of a military man than you let on. Things that make you go HMMMM.........

Originally posted by bsbray11
You know it's hard to really pin you down to any specific claims anyway since you only seem to make insinuations.

Well if you stopped making assumptions about what you think I mean [and actually read what I write] then maybe we can have a civil discussion...

As long as you're fine with the fact that the Chinese could always have something up their sleeves that we don't know about, just like we could have something up our sleeves that they don't know about, I have no conflict with you.

Good there shouldn't be any conflict. Because that was what I've been saying all along. The Sub Cat and Mouse game But your assumptions kept getting in the way

It was just your insinuation that the Chinese can keep no secrets from us, that I found ignorant. But if you weren't actually making that insinuation, then fine! We have no disagreements.

I'm not responsible for your myopic perception and interpretations.

Also I find it impressive that your post received 4 stars within only a few minutes after you posted, and now over an hour later, it's still at 4 stars. Apparently all your fans follow directly on your coat tails. Where have I seen that kind of forum activity before? I've been around these forums for a couple years myself after all. You must be more of a military man than you let on. Things that make you go HMMMM.........

You like stars? I gave you one.

Go figure it doesn't surprise me that some people see bogeymen and conspiracies around every corner on a CONSPIRACY site.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Good there shouldn't be any conflict. Because that was what I've been saying all along. The Sub Cat and Mouse game But your assumptions kept getting in the way

Now you're the one making assumptions.

I'm not talking just about subs, I'm talking about all military assets in general.

The US has stuff China doesn't know about, and there's no reason to think China doesn't have an ace up their own sleeve. It goes both ways.


If we agree on that, then there's nothing left to argue about. We've reached agreement.

Good talking to you.




PS, you're right about this being a conspiracy site. There are more than a couple open eyes around here.

Originally posted by bsbray11
The US has stuff China doesn't know about, and there's no reason to think China doesn't have an ace up their own sleeve. It goes both ways.

Never said that wasnt a possibilty.

You made the assumption that was my stance. Anybody reading this can see that if they cared to look.

PS, you're right about this being a conspiracy site. There are more than a couple open eyes around here.

Good I'm glad,

I'm not responsible for nor impressed by their paranoia

reply to post by centurion1211


What does a test of a naval laser heating up a boat have to do with anti-carrier ballistic missiles?

These missiles are launched from land and carry out terminal targeting phases. I fail to see a laser bringing down multiple warheads that are raining down on you, especially when anti-laser countermeasures are already a reality.

reply to post by bsbray11

So you don't think a war with China would be a cakewalk?

Let's see. China has never, ever been a seapower - and they never will be. China is a large land mass and traditionally through the millennia, haven't had much luck taking war to sea.

Note that they didn't BUILD a navy - an aircraft carrier - they haven't really built any aircraft - nor tanks - nor many of the things that a Western military has ever done. They copy things.

If any Chinese ever had an original thought - they'd haul ass to the West where such mindsets are the norm. If they stayed in China, they would be perceived as a bit of a threat to the other like-thinkers around them and would be dealt with.

But for the record. Often it's hard to make a determination how forces would do against each other, unless you can find how each nation did against a common foe.

In Vietnam, the US never lost a single fight, and in fact, slaughtered the North Vietnamese wholesale - especially in a stand-up fight.

After the US pulled out, China determined to punish North Vietnam for harrassing or killing many of the Chinese folks who lived in North Vietnam near the Chinese border.

China set in play a punitive force to teach the North Vietnamese a lesson. The North Vietnamese slaughtered the hell out of this Chinese force that crossed its border.

Let's see. US forces slaughter Vietnamese forces, who slaughter Chinese forces - uuuuuhhhhhhhmmmmmm - this holds with historical fact.

Westerners, ever defeat and slaughter non-Westerners. Westerners have lost battles to non-Westerners - but not wars. And each time a non-Western army defeated a Western army in battle - the non-Westerners were using masses of Western weapons, weapons platforms, and Western technology.

Westerners ever field bold, disciplined, creative, well-armed forces of considerable power in times of need, and the most bloody battles in history have been Western powers against other Western powers.

The kill ratios of Westerners against non-Westerners are staggering - through the millennia.

For every Acre, there's a Tours. For every Wake Island, there's an Iwo Jima. For every Thermopylae, there's a Plataea. For every Pearl Harbor, there's a Midway. For every Athens, there's a Perseopolis.

For every Dien Bien Phu, there's a Khe Sanh. For every Islandlwanah, there's a Rourke's Drift. For every Phillipines, there's an Okinawa. For every determination to fight the West to the death, there's a Hiroshima and Okinawa. For every Mongol hoarde, there's an Olomouc.

The violent spread of Eastern Islam was stopped at Tours. The massive Persian Empire was stopped in Greece. Rather slaughtered.

No one is saying there's not a ton of Chinese, but they are a land power and their weapon of choice is masses of men to overwhelm their opponents.

Won't work today very well. Too many weapons designed for mass casualties.

And if anyone here thinks they know what cutting edge weapons the West has developed and have managed to keep secret until they need to spring another "surprise," then you may want to think again.

Originally posted by FarArcher
reply to post by bsbray11

 

And if anyone here thinks they know what cutting edge weapons the West has developed and have managed to keep secret until they need to spring another "surprise," then you may want to think again.

You know, I just laugh at people like you who think your military holds all the aces in secret.

Please tell me what use your "secret" weapons are when they are so secret that they can't even be deployed in regular combat conditions?

Your "secret" technology is a joke. All countries have secret technology that they've developed autonomously, what makes the US so special? I'm pretty damn sure that China, which happens to be a 1000s of years old and invented key military weaponry and tactics, knows enough about combat to prepare to fight against the US.

And so what if the US has a larger surface navy? China has enough anti-ship missiles and subs to do serious damage to the US navy. The whole point of having a surface navy is force projection anyways, does it look like China is out to force its power on other countries via the sea?

Like seriously, you don't need cutting-edge, expensive weapons like the Americans in order to fight a war. And just because you have them doesn't mean you're going to be more effective against the enemy.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
You know, I just laugh at people like you who think your military holds all the aces in secret.

Please tell me what use your "secret" weapons are when they are so secret that they can't even be deployed in regular combat conditions?

Your "secret" technology is a joke. All countries have secret technology that they've developed autonomously, what makes the US so special? I'm pretty damn sure that China, which happens to be a 1000s of years old and invented key military weaponry and tactics, knows enough about combat to prepare to fight against the US.

No surprise that it takes a foreigner (to the US) to inject this kind of common sense into the discussion. I don't even see a point in responding to FarArcher myself.

Our military is one of the few things Americans have left to boast about to the rest of the world. I think there is a real tendency here, especially by Americans, to exaggerate the power of our military. Is that really surprising after all? It's like talking about whose willy is bigger. A lot of grown men still take those kinds of pissing contests seriously, even to the point of wanting to kill other human beings just to prove theirs is bigger.

Yet the Taliban in Afghanistan doesn't even have tanks (why should they? we would just blow them up from a distance) and yet it's already been twice the duration of WW2, and we still haven't beaten them. It just goes to prove what you say, that it doesn't all come down to technology anyway. And even if it did, there's no reason to think the US is special for keeping more or better secrets than anyone else, or that it's really going to make any difference. There is no way to prove any nonsense like that anyway since we're talking about secrets.

A lot of our problems fighting in the ME come down to stupid strategic decisions, like going to war to secure natural resources (let's be honest), and needing to occupy all these Arab countries in order to do it. A country that is simply defending itself has a much simpler task at hand: kill the invaders. Occupation is natural since they already live there, and they can even walk around in the open like the Viet Cong, and who would know better? We've killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians in the ME and it only seems to make resistance that much more determined. I can easily understand why. I can't imagine what it would be like to wake up in the middle of the night to my home being destroyed and the rest of my family killed by a bomb, when I had done nothing to provoke it. That is the grim reality of innocent casualties, ie the disgusting term "collateral damage."

A lot of our classified technology was already leaked to China (intentionally imo), and it's not really a secret that we exchange technologies more or less openly with the UK, Israel, even Russia in some cases. And in other cases, Russian scientists openly talk of science that is utterly alien to anything the public in the US knows about, like torsion fields. A lot of people are even so arrogant as to dismiss that kind of Russian science out of hand, as if we would have already figured it out ourselves if there was anything to it. The Russians figured out long ago that all they have to do is design weapons specifically to destroy our own systems with cost efficiency. One million dollar rocket can take out a multi-million dollar carrier, etc. Of course plenty of American soldiers would tell you, that despite this, all foreign military forces are still second-rate degenerates and we could pwn them all at the same time. Just ask FarArcher.


It's really embarrassing to me as an American how far this country has gone astray from our founding fathers' visions of a country that did not meddle in the affairs of foreign nations. George Washington warned against 3 things when he stepped down as our first president, and getting intimately involved in foreign affairs was one of them. Our policy used to be isolationism. Now it's apparently policing the world, with a smug Nazi attitude, and feeling the need to spend as much money on our weapons as the rest of the world combined.

I really don't know what else to say, except that it really is embarrassing.

they could have made a ton of money if it was a casino.




i'd sure as heck would go!

reply to post by bsbray11


Great post.

And you are right about defensive goals: you only have to think about killing the enemy.

When your third-world country is invaded by some superpower (like in Afghanistan, for the second time), you're not going to show the invaders any mercy. Why would you? In fact, the will to survive is a much greater weapon than some laser gun or precision bombs. Rebels vs kids in uniform with old commanders.

And what happens when one superpower fights another? It all comes down to which power has produced the stronger discipline, because disciplined soldiers last until they die while weapons are only good as long as you have the resources to fund them. The fact is that American soldiers are far from the same discipline that Chinese soldiers grow up under, and the more fancy weapons the US deploys against China, they faster they run out of the funds to maintain them. Oh, and I should probably mention that China actually has a pretty sizable and capable military and anyone would be a fool if they think the US can just start policing China with force.

Even if the Chinese and Americans met in an engagement in some foreign country, you can bet the Chinese would win far more hearts and minds (and resources) of the locals by supporting them, unlike the Americans who take over local assets and resources and guards them with mercinaries (that sort of thing pisses people off). That's just another dimension to consider in such a hypothetical conflict, especially considering how effective you want your intelligence operations to run. I imagine it would be harder to gain the trust of a lot of people in the world when you spent the last sixty years killing their older generations, intentionally bombing infrastructure, and supporting enemies (like in Asia we have Vietnam, Cambodia, North Korea, etc).

China being "behind on carriers" doesn't make one whit of difference to what they may or may not be doing with directed energy weapons.

Hi, Aristophrenia

Originally posted by Aristophrenia
Finally it may well be worth your time to understand the evolution of aircraft carrier warfare - carriers are dseigned specifically as a projection of power.

It's a way to project power but i would say mostly historical inertia; if the USn did not have many dozens of fleet carriers after the second world war they may have gone a different way entirely. Fact is once you have so much trained personal and so much operational experience even if your way of fighting has vulnerabilities you are still playing to your strengths and you can focus on creating the means to negate your vulnerabilities. Also i think that for the time frame and for imperial world police ( meaning making the world safe for American corporations) the carrier power projection was more practical than the alternatives.

A PROJECTION. The USSR has always been miles ahead of the US in engine and rocket development, hence while the US spent BILLIONS developing carriers

I have great respect for the Russian rocketry ( they captured the German rocket engineers while the Americans captured the rocket scientist) but the fact is that their moon program initially failed because of their inability to make rockets in the sizes required and compromised by trying to make dozens work together with perhaps predictable results. If not for their failures in this area there is a very good chance, and they got close enough, they would have beaten the Americans to the moon.

- the russians simply built indefensible anti-aircraft carrier missiles, a philosophy similar to the Chinese who have developed the worlds most powerful anti- aircraft carrier missile.

Indefensible? There is nothing in those missiles that makes them impossible to stop and there is a very good reason why they deployed HUNDREDS of submarines and by the mid 80's were operating around 250 submarines ( not sure if those were just the nukes or nukes and diesel). Combined with this they operated a coupled hundred supersonic theater ( i say strategic but we can argue more later) bombers that unless quickly and effectively counted could have and would have gone a long way towards battering task groups to pieces in the mid Atlantic. The Russians most certainly did not leave it up to just a few missiles and had both many ways to deliver them and many of them.

Something the US don't have.
This was part of the Chinese defense program which also saw them develop land based anti- satellite technology allowing them to knock out any satellite at any time- some thing which was demonstrated several years ago with great effect. The US were so far behind in this tech it took them almost a year to accomplish anything even remotely capable of replicating the achievement. And even then - was no where NEAR as sophisticated.

The Chinese were not first with A-Sat technology and we could probably spend some time arguing if the US or the Russians first had the capability back in the 70's.

What you CLEARLY are not grasping about warfare is the counter balance which is required and therefore leads to different directions in evolution - mountain, urban, space, projection, defensive etc all these lead to differing directions in evolution.

There is no great grasp on the weapons forum by many of many things but i can't help posting and thus often exposing my own ignorance. :0

The Russians, Chinese all considered a projection of power a strain on resources and a waste - especially when carriers could be taken out for a tiny fraction of the cost with a single missile.They thought they were stupid and hence did not develop them. They are not some incredible achievement - look at the history of carriers - Japan had them first.

The Russians and Chinese both lacked the means to project power around the world in the nuclear age and instead spent what resources and many they had to best protect themselves with active and passive defenses. The USSR's civil defense infrastructure cost them truly vast amounts of resources but by the 80's some western observers/defense specialist ( from Russian sources and projections) agreed that the USSR could fight a full scale nuclear war and suffer as few as 5% casualties due to their wide scale decentralization of industry and civil defense construction projects.

The US had no such defenses even thought it is clear from the records that they could have had such even earlier than the USSR. The US essentially focused it's energy on creating a world wide empire that were so deeply in their pockets that they essentially had more allied or friendly 'cities' and military bases than the Russians could ever build nuclear weapons to counter. The body count were obviously, as historically proven, never a great concern for the western imperialist while the USSR had little to spare in human resources after the devastation the Nazi's ( and Stalin) wrought.

China does not want them to do the things the US does - they want them to protect their regional waters and coastal operations in Bengal, Pakistan, Africa etc.

I have no reason to believe that the Chinese will not follow the same imperial route given the comparative power to do so. What did the Japanese do with their power back when they had it? Admittedly the Chinese seem comparatively passive but their relations with the USSR were never great and no one needs TWO enemies who both have the power to blockade you or do much worse if crossed.

Stellar

Originally posted by SLAYER69
That's ego on their part and to demonstrate they were able to pull it off. I'd be more afraid of the unknown. The Soviets thought their subs were fool proof until to their horror they found out through their spy network we could track them almost unmolested.

The Soviets did not think their subs were fool proof or they would not have kept them in service for as long as they did. By 1980 they operated somewhere over 250 many which were rather outdated by still good for war in the nuclear age where everything could and might have gone to #%$ in a short time. As for the 'tracking unmolested' i have heard about it but have seen no more validation for that claim than the claim that the Soviet union were suspected of deploying mechanical and seismic noise makers in their submarines because many of them were simple louder than they had any right to be with any kind of engineering. The story goes that the Russians practiced this deception hoping that come a shooting war ( they were not patrolling the world as imperial police) the USN would find itself in the uncomfortable situation of trying to track submarines that were much harder to find than what they were used to training for. I do not have good sources for that but since you do not have any actual sources for yours we can just have these nice chats about history.....

Why were they surprised?

Because we never showed our hand.

The Chinese just showed theirs for a headline.

The problem with that is there is no armed force that has showed more of it's hand than the US as it's always engaged in this war or that war of patrolling this ocean or that ocean. There is much you can hide even in combat operations but as we have seen the discipline in the US armed forces is by no means high or it's intelligence networks secure.

Stellar

reply to post by StellarX


I appreciate your opinion.
it is an interesting revisionist theory.

Originally posted by StellarX
As for the 'tracking unmolested' i have heard about it but have seen no more validation for that claim......

but since you do not have any actual sources for yours we can just have these nice chats about history.....

I said "Almost" unmolested, I noticed how you purposely left that out. In any case it was a figure of speech.

Here is a rather interesting bit of collaborating history.

John Anthony Walker - Spy

When Walker began spying, he worked as a important supervisor in the communications center for the Atlantic submarine force. He would have had knowledge of top-secret technologies, such as the SOSUS underwater surveillance system which tracks submarine traffic via a network of submerged hydrophones.[9] It was through Walker that the Soviets became aware that the United States were able to track the location of Soviet submarines by the cavitation produced by their propellers.....

Originally posted by bsbray11
They've already popped up next to one of our aircraft carriers during one of our wargames, totally undetected until it surfaced.

That's conjecture.

Originally posted by bsbray11If the US doesn't address that, one Chinese sub per aircraft carrier... They could take our navy out pretty quickly too.

That's laughable. The US Navy is by far the most powerful in the world, the Chinese couldn't retake Taiwan if we put up a first rate defense, let alone stand toe to toe and slug it out to the bitter end. The truth is the Chinese subs wouldn't make it out of port.