A Challenge to Chemtrail Debunkers

The question remains: How will people take up a challenge to debunk "chemtrails" and other issues worldwide, if they themselves are not allowed to hold up their "torches and pitch forks" in public assemblies or simply refuse to look up into the skies when their concerns are glued to the television and computer monitors for "current events"? I'm starting to believe people don't care about "chemtrails" because they would rather live here and now than worry about the future.

Originally posted by coyotepoet

Are you willing to admit that at least some of the trails across the sky are indeed “chemtrails” whatever their purpose may be?

There is no evidence that any of the trails seen across the sky are anything other than normal contrails.

Nor is there any evidence that if any form of spraying for whatever reason were being undertaken then it would looks like contrails.

This does not mean such spraying does not happen.

Of course some of these trails are simply contrails, but not all of them. To turn it into an all-or-nothing prospect on either side is equally ignorant. People, at least those who are open minded, intuitively understand/feel/know that something is not right about some of these lines in the sky. If they are indeed not all innocent contrails that then begs the question, why? What purpose do these lines serve? Many ideas have been put forth as people seek to understand what their intuition is telling them. Some may be correct, some may not be. These ideas include (in no particular order)

You make some great points in your OP coyotepoet S&F . I agree with you that if one is to learn anything new, then one must be open minded to new subjects. Most "chemmies" express an open minded opinion of what they see, why they might be seeing it and what the reasons behind it might be. They have, for the most part, objectively listened to both sides of the argument and come to their own conclusions by rational and intuitive means.

On the other hand most of the debunkers I have encountered and their posts that I have read, all seem to be very closed minded to any other ideas than the ones they have been taught or told. They solely base their opinions on a select few scientific studies that all the experts admit need MORE research and MORE study to understand the real science behind the phenomenon properly.

Scientists and even some debunkers themselves do indeed call this type of "persistent contrail" a phenomenon. That term in itself expressly and intuitively implies that this is an unusual occurrences that is not explained by normal science that is known to be true at this time. If only we all could be more open minded then maybe the science of what we are seeing can actually have a basis of fact to it. But until the proper studies are done, which include a full spectrum analysis of all the possibilities and the data related to those possibilities, then we are all still left in the dark on both sides of this debate.

reply to post by coyotepoet

1) Geoengineering
2) Mind Control/dumbing down
3) Eugenics/population control/sterilization
4) Increasing the number of sick people to benefit the pharmaceutical company
5) Aspect of HAARP or Bluebeam projects
6) Using weather as a weapon
7) A new type of weapons technology being tested on unsuspecting guinea pigs
8) GMO's (like Monsanto's aluminium resistant crops)
9) Creating rain/drought/etc (an offshoot of geoengineering)
10) To block the sun/blue sky for whatever reason.
Or, as one debunker sarcastically suggested
11) Benignly spraying us with vitamins and minerals to help us live longer and be more healthy

I think all of these scenarios are plausable, sadly the least likely being the last one. Being new to this sight and to some degree awakening recently to just how pervasive and ruthless the "power's that be" truely are my head is spinning. I have spent the last 6mns trying to educate myself, or should I say re-educate myself and determine what should I do to help what I have come to see as a dire situation that all of us MUST address to even have a fighting chance to maintain any quality of life for our children, the animals and our beautiful earth. The issue of "chemtrails" jumps out to me as possibly the most important battle mankind may ever face, This is based on research, observation, and yes, intuition...so if I may, I would like to share some observations to begin with here.

Before I was ever aware of the persistant chemtrails,I worked a few days a week in my daughter's classroom, I was shocked to see that several kids had issues with asmatha and had to carry inhaler's. Growing up I never new any kids with asthema, and I grew up when adults still smoked indoors and around children, second hand smoke was never on the radar. I also started seeing and hearing about more and more adults with alzheimer's, again had never known any familiers all my life up till that point suffering with this, now all of a sudden it was becoming a common occurrence, lastly more and more couples where having trouble getting pregnant, again in my day Not getting pregnant was more the concern, So as to health concerns, something is going on, and while I know other factors can be and are involved, it was eye opening to hear the connections being made to the high levels of illumanum, barium and strontium found in mountain tops where natural leaching shouldn't occur, and these high levels coming from the sky seems the most logical conclution.

Secondly being an outdoorsy type, having a horticulture background in my education, I started to notice trees were dying off in my area, Rosalind Peterson has done some some very good research in Sonoma CA that illustrate how these "strange chemtrails" could very likely be a big cause of these dying and unhealthy trees popping up at a rapid and unatural rate. I was also noticing that I couldn't see stars at night anymore hardly, even when we were camping in places where the stars where once so beautiful, and city lights couldn't cause what was once a sky full of stars to dwindle so drastically. The days seemed to become more overcast, more often, but still at this point I had not made the connection.What finally connected the dots for me was when I was traveling through CA and started to notice these weird trails in the sky left by airplanes in these bizzare tic tac toe type patterns by several planes at once? I had never seen anything like this in my life! Then it got even weirder when I was traveling long enough distances to actually watch the whole sky change to a milky color, and then once I drove far enough away the sky would go back to normal where the planes weren't flying. Now that I am paying attention I see these things almost daily, and it seems to be esculating! There is no doubt in my mind that these are not normal contrails that I have seen most of my life, just plain commen sence to me.

If the documentary "What in the world are they spraying?" wasn't chilling enough, the reaction by OUR elected officials chills me to the bone! We need to continue to demand this issue be addressed openly. Good work to all those who continue to reject this insanity and keep pounding this issue till OUR government is held to task to explain publically what is happening and WHY!?

Originally posted by coyotepoet
reply to post by badw0lf

 

So that's it then? Those who agree with you are correct and those who disagree with you are close minded? Seems to me you're propping up your own defense by stating there is no reasonable alternative - then hiding it under the guise of asking a question. Tisk tisk...

Isn't that exactly what the debunkers do? That is precisely my point.

edit on 28-3-2011 by coyotepoet because: (no reason given)

Umm not the ones I've seen. The ones who go to the effort to provide links to info regarding weather, contrail creation, types of planes that are often reported etc etc.

On the other hand, there are threads like this that assume an answer and offer NO evidence but speculation and get toffy when people call them up on it

Sure on both sides there are "Youre an idiot! End" posters, but you're ignoring the fact there are MANY posters on ATS who have tried, tried, treid, and tried again to explain WHY they think this topic is faulty.

But you keep ignoring it... Keep asking for evidence or asking questions and then stating that unless the answer or evidece agrees with you, that the people providing it are "Small Minded"

buh, have at it...

Click here for more information.

As I have posted before in other threads, OP I want you to view a Jet next time with binoculars, you will notice that the "chemtrails" come from the Jet's engines...now if they were spraying it would come from nozzles or a release valve of sorts.

Originally posted by Nobama
As I have posted before in other threads, OP I want you to view a Jet next time with binoculars, you will notice that the "chemtrails" come from the Jet's engines...now if they were spraying it would come from nozzles or a release valve of sorts.

I answered your post in the other thread about this. Here is the answer i gave below. I would like to add that if aircraft have been modified to use nozzles as you put it. TPTB are smart enough to know to put them inline with the engines and to use the nozzles in a way that make it look like the spray is a contrail. This could be done by putting a small nozzle just outside or even just barely inside the exhaust manifold outlets of each engine.

No, I have personally spent many hours researching this issue. The answer is not simple as you suggest. There are many more complicated aspects and issues involved.

First let me state, again as mere speculation, that one of the strongest reasons for this is geoengineering. One of the most popular theories among the scientists of the methods we could use are jet aircraft emissions. This may not apply just to jet exhaust emissions but other emissions that Jets could emit by being a transport system for aerosols. This is a fact that is being looked into very deeply by many scientists.

They are trying to figure out how to use these methods in a controlled way that will be effective. However this is a very delicate field of nature they are tinkering with. It could have catastrophic effects if handled carelessly.

They have determined through studies already done that if 1% of jet emissions were to be elevated in altitude by 10,000 feet or so, then that would help in global cooling. But the problem is most modern aircraft do not fly high enough to have the beneficial effect. So aircraft emissions are not going to do the job well enough. Then the spray would enter and combine with the normal exhaust and the heat from the jet engines.

The geoengineeriong scientists have determined that extra aerosol must be injected into the atmosphere at a very high altitude to have a beneficial cooling effect on the Earths albedo. They have devised special particles based on designs of seed pods and dandelions that have an umbrella like shape and aerodynamic lift qualities to them. This is so the material used to radiate and absorb the energies necessary will stay airborne as long as possible.

It is likely that all methods for getting as much aerosols in the atmosphere that they can get away with at one time are being used. They have even studied trying to replicate a volcano. A strong possibility, if you have looked into this subject, will appear. Alter the jet fuel so that it contains more emissions than normal. To make this feasable the fuel needs to burn hotter than normal. Both the factors of extra particulates and extra heat would then be able to explain why the modern contrails persist.

EDIT: My problem is that it is not being openly discussed and studied publicly.

Let's take a short look at climate change and why these things might be happening.

Part 1 of 11. Climate Change -- the scientific debate


One guys reason why it might be better to be safe than sorry about global warming


Longer Documentary of Earth and the changes taking place viewed from an aerial perspective

Internationally renowned photographer Yann Arthus-Bertrand makes his feature directorial debut with this environmentally conscious documentary produced by Luc Besson, and narrated by Glenn Close. Shot in 54 countries and 120 locations over 217 days, Home presents the many wonders of planet Earth from an entirely aerial perspective. As such, we are afforded the unique opportunity to witness our changing environment from an entirely new vantage point. In our 200,000 years on Earth, humanity has hopelessly upset Mother Nature's delicate balance. Some experts claim that we have less than ten years to change our patterns of consumption and reverse the trend before the damage is irreversible. Produced to inspire action and encourage thoughtful debate, Home poses the prospect that unless we act quickly, we risk losing the only home we may ever have.

reply to post by MathiasAndrew


I've seen alot of Jets up close in my time, and have never once noticed a Jet outfitted with Nozzles, and I would like to ask your opinion on how the suppose PTB avoid poisoning themselves as well? Also wouldn't we have inside information from pilots by now that felt bad for doing what they did?



Sorry if it seems like im attacking you, I just want the facts as much as you do.

reply to post by Nobama


The theory of chemtrails being involved with geoengineering isn't about poisoning people. It's about preventing global warming. TPTB may be affected the same as everyone (except they would have inside knowledge about when and where the spraying happens and how to protect themselves) but they consider the health risks to be less important versus the risks of ignoring global warming.

The planes that spray are private and/or military so no one from the general public would have access. The pilots either understand the trade off in risk factors or are unaware and just do what they are told.

Here is a quote from the USAF Petroleum Agency
www.af.mil...

Personnel The agency employs 71 civilians, eight officers and 19 enlisted military members. In addition to this staff, AFPA uses seven contractors as its partners.

Not that many people to keep quite if the fuel is being altered in some way. There are many questions still unanswered and that is the problem. These questions should already have been answered publicly but no efforts have been made to make studies and test results public.

reply to post by Nobama


These are must read documents on aerosol and other types of geoengineering
people.ucalgary.ca...

people.ucalgary.ca...

More research papers on geoengineering
people.ucalgary.ca...


Air Force Research Laboratory consolidated 4 labs into 1
www.af.mil...

Air Force Research Laboratory, with headquarters at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, was created in October 1997. The laboratory was formed through the consolidation of four former Air Force laboratories and the Air Force Office of Scientific Research.

National Archives.gov Subject Index
www.archives.gov...

reply to post by coyotepoet

Any one or all of them could be possible and valid reasons for the trails that aren't contrails.

Possible and valid are two entirely different things. Rather than debate metaphysics, let's see if any of them are "plausible."

1) Geoengineering

If you have been reading the papers and articles that MatthiasAndrew has been so generously contributing to every thread, you would know that geoengineering is entirely theoretical, and probably beyond our current technology. There has been concern about the effects of high altitude jets since the 1970's, but this research has been inconclusive. The volume of evidence that MatthiasAndrew has unearthed suggests that there is no attempt to keep this scientific debate secret.

2) Mind Control/dumbing down

How do clouds "dumb people down?" Do natural clouds control people's minds? Dispersing psychotropic chemicals at an altitude of 10 kilometers would be grossly inefficient. It would be much more cost effective to put such chemicals in the food or water supply.

3) Eugenics/population control/sterilization

Dispersing contraception from an airplane has the same drawbacks as above. Dispersing poison into the atmosphere intentionally would poison the populace indiscriminately, even the ones the sinister cabal want to survive for their own nefarious purposes.

4) Increasing the number of sick people to benefit the pharmaceutical company

That's what television advertising and corn syrup are for. No need to hire expensive jets.

5) Aspect of HAARP or Bluebeam projects

"Project Bluebeam" is a hoax. Or was there a mass hallucination I missed?

6) Using weather as a weapon

The military would love to be able to use weather as a weapon. I suppose that if they flew enough jets over enemy territory, they could create cloudy skies and sap the enemy's morale. They could do this more quickly if the jets dropped bombs, however.

7) A new type of weapons technology being tested on unsuspecting guinea pigs

Again, at 10 kilometers? Why not simply infect a particular brand of bottled water so you can monitor the vector properly?

8) GMO's (like Monsanto's aluminium resistant crops)

I can't make sense of this sentence fragment. Are you implying that Monsanto is introducing aluminum at 10 kilometer altitudes over cities to sell their seeds to farmers?

9) Creating rain/drought/etc (an offshoot of geoengineering)

Airplanes are used to create rain. It's called "cloud seeding" and you need to pay for the service.

10) To block the sun/blue sky for whatever reason.

"Whatever reason?" I suppose if there were a reason, but why deliberately spray "chemtrails" when normal air traffic creates enough contrails to do this as it is?

11) Benignly spraying us with vitamins and minerals to help us live longer and be more healthy

From 10 kilometers? It would be much more efficient to add vitamins and minerals to the processed food supply, which they do.

Originally posted by Essan

Originally posted by coyotepoet

Are you willing to admit that at least some of the trails across the sky are indeed “chemtrails” whatever their purpose may be?

There is no evidence that any of the trails seen across the sky are anything other than normal contrails.

Nor is there any evidence that if any form of spraying for whatever reason were being undertaken then it would looks like contrails.

This does not mean such spraying does not happen.

I've got a suggestion, Essan.....why don't you stick your all-knowing debunking, close-minded head in the following referenced document for a time. It is a pdf and makes for quite an interesting read.
Oh, wait..... on the other hand, I wouldn't expect you to be open-minded enough to read and accept some of the possibly incriminating references contained therein by your very own House of Commons Science and Technology Committee.

The Regulation of Geoengineering Fifth Report of Session 2009–10 Report, together with formal minutes, oral and written evidence Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 10 March 2010

reply to post by Toots

I wouldn't expect you to be open-minded enough to read and accept some of the possibly incriminating references contained therein by your very own House of Commons Science and Technology Committee.

Possibly incriminating? Is it incriminating or not? What part of the hearings do you find suggest that criminal activity might possibly be going on at the moment? Be specific.

reply to post by Toots


So far as I can determine, there is nothing in that document that in any way contradicts my previous statement

reply to post by coyotepoet

Are you willing to admit that at least some of the trails across the sky are indeed “chemtrails” whatever their purpose may be?

NO.

I am more than willing to admit that chemicals are being sprayed from aircraft. There are plenty of patents, research grants, and documented cases. Yes, chemicals are being sprayed into the atmosphere........BUT

all of those chemicals are basically invisible, and usually sprayed at very low altitudes, and very quickly fall to the ground, so that their effects can be measured.

Every long, white/gray, lingering line in the sky is a "contrail." Those contrails follow established jet routes, and then they drift or disperse according to weather conditions, but then the next jet comes along in the same jet route and makes a new one.

Chemicals in the atmosphere = yes.
Chemtraisl as invisible, experimental sprays at low altitude = sure.
Chemtrails as the long, lingering lines in the sky = never.

Those long white/gray, lingering lines are always, 100% of the time, Contrails.

reply to post by coyotepoet


In my defense, I did break the rules of that thread and provide evidence for my thoughts.

Originally posted by network dude
Assuming that what everyone sees in the sky is more than a condensate trail left from aircraft exhaust in cloud forming conditions, I would say we are being sprayed with vitamins and minerals meant to increase life expectancy.
Based on this information I can look at almost any country in the world and see that the life expectancy is ever increasing. Should we discover that chemtrails are real, I think we should be thanking the perpetrators of this phenomenon.

reply to post by DJW001

1) Geoengineering If you have been reading the papers and articles that MatthiasAndrew has been so generously contributing to every thread, you would know that geoengineering is entirely theoretical, and probably beyond our current technology. There has been concern about the effects of high altitude jets since the 1970's, but this research has been inconclusive. The volume of evidence that MatthiasAndrew has unearthed suggests that there is no attempt to keep this scientific debate secret.

If you had read the papers I posted you wouldn't be making this statement. But typical of the debunker mentality you jump to far off assumptions and make absolute conclusions that fit your beliefs.

Geoengineering is not entirely theoretical nor is it somewhat theoretical. The only theoretical part of geoengineering are the lng term results if it's carried out on a large global scale.

Your bold statements about geengineering being theoretical shows that you have a typical debunker style agenda and will say anything to try and convince others that nothing is happening. You and all your debunker comrades fit into 3 categories.
1 ) You have not investigated this deep enough and are basing your opinions on limited knowledge.

2 ) You do not understand the research papers and you are taking someone else's word about what is being said

3 ) You are purposefully trying to cover up this issue and prevent awareness..

Everyone always says why don't we have more whistle blowers. Well maybe it's because anyone with knowledge of the programs are being closely monitored and if they try to speak out they get killed and portrayed as crazy. The increase in military "suicide" might not make a person feel safe in speaking out.

www.defence.gov.au...

Battle against suicide

“I WISH there was absolutely no requirement for us to be here today launching a program focused on the prevention of suicide within the ADF.” Director-General Defence Health Services Air Commodore Tony Austin made that comment at the launch of the ADF’s new Suicide Prevention Program (SPP) on September 10 to mark World Suicide Prevention Day. Suicide is the third highest cause of deaths in the ADF. There are about seven or eight suicides a year and since 1996 there have been 462 reported cases of non-fatal related behaviour.