The Tibetan Goat-Herder

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by freedish

 

Um...no. You see, there's no evidence of the afterlife, so you're just idly speculating. Your speculations are about as useful as those of someone claiming that there is a microscopic unicorn kingdom on Pluto conspiring to assassinate Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

Dude this thread is about fundamentalist Christianity vs. liberal Christianity...not whether or not there's an after life.


This is like if I came into an argument about what fast food restaurants hamburger is better and said fast food sucks. It doesn't really add anything to the topic and is kind of irrelevant.

But even though your response is completely irrelevant i will entertain it anyways.

Think about Pythagoras...he suggested that the Earth must be round because a sphere is a 'perfect' shape, and only a spherical Earth would match with the perfect harmony of the Universe. He didn't provide much of an empirical foundation for this assertion, he was mainly going off a 'hunch'. Well he turned out to be right.

What can we learn from Pythagoras? Just because there is no hard evidence doesn't mean something is not true. Rather just because science can't prove the existence of God at this time (well actually quantum mechanics can but that's for another time) doesn't mean He doesn't exist. We simply don't have the tools to measure/weigh/analyze Him.

Then again it doesn't really take a scientist to answer this question...you could just look up at the sky and and stare in wonder at the beautiful harmony of everything and conclude God exists.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by freedish
reply to post by Hessling

 

And who says that Jesus can't save people after death?

The bible says that every knee shall bows and know Jesus is Lord.

So that Tibetan guy -will- have his chance to accept Jesus.

Remember that even demons know that Jesus is Lord, however they chose not to accept Him.

edit on 27-3-2011 by freedish because: (no reason given)

Now don't misunderstand me; I'm not trying to convince you of anything, and you probably preach at people from the best of motives. But mankind has increasingly more freedom to choose individually, and I suggest you adjust to that, for you inconvenient situation, by not presenting fabulated absolutes.

Just as your sermon SUGGESTED something.

edit on 27-3-2011 by bogomil because: spelling

Preaching?
SERMON???
Where in my reply was a sermon?
How did you conclude I was preaching?
I was answering a question about fundamentalist vs liberal Christianity.

And why even bother telling me your opinion on Christianity? I never asked for it? IF you aren't trying to convince me of anything like you said then what's the point of telling me? I am not trying to be rude if it happens to come off that way, I am sincerely concerned here. Do you and the other poster madnessinmysoul feel condemned? It seems anytime there is a thread on Christianity you two are letting everyone know your opinions about it.

I don't go into the UFO forums and tell them about my opinions. I don't believe in UFO's, I think they are silly. But I don't go in their forums and tell everybody. I simply don't care.

Either
A) You are bored.
B) You feel condemned, enough so that you feel the need to tell ME your opinion on the matter.
or C) You are truly searching for the truth. You are genuinely hoping someone replies with a post containing 100% evidence of God.

If this last one is true then you need to look no further. God has been calling you since the day you were born. Go find a nice place where your alone and can have a sincere chat with Him.


I truly hope you will take my post seriously. You can pick apart my post and make fun of me. Call me a stupid christian. You can be defensive, or get offended. You can even ignore this post. But the fact remains you and madnessinmysoul are ALWAYS posting in the religious section. Please tell me why.

reply to post by freedish


You wrote:

["Preaching?
SERMON???
Where in my reply was a sermon?
How did you conclude I was preaching?"]

Quote from former post of yours as an answer to the above:

[" The bible says that every knee shall bows and know Jesus is Lord.

So that Tibetan guy -will- have his chance to accept Jesus.

Remember that even demons know that Jesus is Lord, however they chose not to accept Him."]

Repeating doctrinal postulates counts as 'preaching' or making 'sermons' for me. In this case especially the last line, which is a generalized postulate, presented as 'truth'.

Quote: ["And why even bother telling me your opinion on Christianity? I never asked for it?"]

The same way as nobody here asked you to preach.

Quote: [" IF you aren't trying to convince me of anything like you said then what's the point of telling me?"]

This is a DEBATE forum, where various opinions are presented. In this context I found it reasonable to address you, because it's your opinion/post, I refer to.

Quote: ["I am sincerely concerned here. Do you and the other poster madnessinmysoul feel condemned? It seems anytime there is a thread on Christianity you two are letting everyone know your opinions about it."]

I can only speak for myself: You don't seem to understand the concept 'debate', which implies that opinions, information etc. going in all directions (restricted by requests of topic-relevance and keeping character defamation down) are acceptable. If you by asking if I'm 'feeling condemned' mean if I have any paranoic delusions, my answer is no.

Quote: ["I don't go into the UFO forums and tell them about my opinions. I don't believe in UFO's, I think they are silly. But I don't go in their forums and tell everybody. I simply don't care."]

It's your option not to go there and not to care. I go to threads interesting me in various ways, and I DO care about certain subjects based on my own concerns.

Quote: ["Either
A) You are bored.
B) You feel condemned, enough so that you feel the need to tell ME your opinion on the matter.
or C) You are truly searching for the truth. You are genuinely hoping someone replies with a post containing 100% evidence of God......."]

Thanks for arranging MY options in a way, which suits YOUR purposes. That I possibly have my own motives doesn't seem to be amongst my choices.

Quote: [".......If this last one is true then you need to look no further. God has been calling you since the day you were born. Go find a nice place where your alone and can have a sincere chat with Him."]

As this option isn't true for me, the rest is invalid and meaningless in my case.

Quote: ["I truly hope you will take my post seriously. You can pick apart my post and make fun of me."]

My degree of 'taking seriously' and 'making fun' depends on the level of doctrinal, monopoly-seeking absolutes presented and in which form. One-way monologues, presenting second-hand postulates or ideological propaganda (often with steam-roller repetitive insistence) doesn't exactly encourage or inspire respect, and generally makes dialogues impossible.

Quote: ["Call me a stupid christian. You can be defensive, or get offended. You can even ignore this post. But the fact remains you and madnessinmysoul are ALWAYS posting in the religious section. Please tell me why."]

I have for most of my adult life (I'm 65+ now) been interested in existential questions, and have over the years delved into most subjects relevant to this, be it scientific, metaphysical or social. I find that any kind of invasive ideological extremism is THE most crippling phenomenon in mankind's existence. (This answer can be specified from several perspectives, but that's beyond the point now).


Going completely on-topic again, I read in another post of yours, that you consider this thread as..

Quote from you: [" Dude this thread is about fundamentalist Christianity vs. liberal Christianity...not whether or not there's an after life."]

Whereas the OP contains this:

Quote: ["So, what are your thoughts? Don’t care if you are Christian, Atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, Fence-sitter, Apache or whatever your beliefs are! I’d really like to hear some thoughts on this from members."]

Which for me means, that not only are the variations inside the christianities 'topic', but also opinions from other schools of thought, made from/on their own terms. Thus making the thread rather 'broad' concerning optional perspectives.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


speculativeoptimist,

I watched the three videos pertaining to Joseph Campbell that you posted. They were both thought-provoking and wonderful. I am going to have to do some research on Mr. Campbell. Thanks for sharing.

There was one quote of his from the third video that I have to post since I personally think it sums up so much...

"Life is like arriving late to a movie having to figure out what was going on."

- Joseph Campbell

Thanks again for your contributions to this thread.

Peace.

reply to post by Hessling

My pleasure Hessling, thank you for the kind words
So a little follow up on the info I provided. Tom Brown Jr is a fascinating guy and his books were some of the most influential I have ever read. He was taught the scout ways of the Apache, and became so good that his book Tom Browns Survival Guide, and techniques were/are used by special forces. He has actually taught military people.
Grandfather was the Apache that took Tom under his wing and taught him the Indian ways. Great reads, inspirational, and truly reconnects us with nature. The Tracker and Way of the Scout are excellent reads, and are the first one's I would recommend. Here is a link to his books: Here

Joseph Cambell is a world renowned scholar on mythology and folklore. There is no one else that has examined and investigated historical cultures and their myths like Cambell has. He devoted his entire life to it. He provides some great analogies and is very well versed in these things. While he has a plethora of works and studies, I would recommend 2 of his pinnacle masterpieces, The Power Of Myth Documentary
and The Hero's Journey :Hero's Journey

Here are a few more vids pieces too:
Power Of Myth - Intro

Q and A Session

Hero With A Thousand Faces


Peace,
spec

ETA: Speaking of Tibetan culture, you might enjoy this doc too. It is cinematically beautiful, and has a true tear jerking story. It is a wonderful peak into their culture. Here is the thread on it: The Story Of The Weeping Camel

reply to post by bogomil


you said

The same way as nobody here asked you to preach.

OP asked for our opinions....and I happen to agree with the bible. Is that not my opinion?

reply to post by Hessling

Matthew 24:14 (Amplified Bible)

14 And this good news of the kingdom (the Gospel) will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.

Before this part of scripture is fulfilled, I believe that God is such a loving God that He will give those that lived a life such as that story you told a chance and they will go to heaven.
I believe right at the moment or the last hour before they die, Christ comes to them in the spiritual, and comforts them and brings to them salvation.

reply to post by hawaii50th

I believe right at the moment or the last hour before they die, Christ comes to them in the spiritual, and comforts them and brings to them salvation.

If that is the case, wouldn't good people be better off not being told about Jesus in the first place?

According my understand of what you are saying, if someone leads a virtual life but has never heard of Jesus, then he will be saved at the time of death, but if the same person were told of Jesus but rejected that belief, he would be sent to hell for eternity.

So in other words, if a Christian had not spread the "good word" to him, he would not have had a chance to reject the teachings, and hence he would have avoided hell altogether.

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

I believe right at the moment or the last hour before they die, Christ comes to them in the spiritual, and comforts them and brings to them salvation.

If that is the case, wouldn't good people be better off not being told about Jesus in the first place?

According my understand of what you are saying, if someone leads a virtual life but has never heard of Jesus, then he will be saved at the time of death, but if the same person were told of Jesus but rejected that belief, he would be sent to hell for eternity.

So in other words, if a Christian had not spread the "good word" to him, he would not have had a chance to reject the teachings, and hence he would have avoided hell altogether.

If only it would be that simple. We will all have to wait till we meet that day of our end I guess. It will always be there to deny that there is a God and that He sent a Savior, and that the Savior preached to love one another and not to judge. But it's too simple for most to except, they rather choose their own destiny when it comes to their soul.
Days like these were prophesied to happen, and it surely is.

Originally posted by freedish
reply to post by bogomil

 

you said

The same way as nobody here asked you to preach.

OP asked for our opinions....and I happen to agree with the bible. Is that not my opinion?

So you are presenting opinions going in one direction, I'm presenting opinions going in the opposite direction. Pretty obvious.

In the context of how the christianities variously manifest, I consider the present thread, its author and its OP as 'decent'. It's not pushy, but invites to different perspectives on their own terms.

What I don't consider 'decent' is when an element of exclusiveness is introduced, starting from the basis of absolutes 'which are right, because they are right'. And I ESPECIALLY don't consider it 'decent', when arguments are twisted hijackings from objective systematic methodologies, falsely used for 'proving' theist postulates.

If this is done from ignorance or from conscious manipulation isn't important to me, it just demonstrates the standard used by many christian missionaries, where propaganda is more important than the objective facts used in the common and rational methods of describing mundane reality.

So when you present your 'opinions', I suggest you shouldn't introduce such as

Quote from an earlier post of yours to Madness:

["Rather just because science can't prove the existence of God at this time (well actually quantum mechanics can but that's for another time)"]

That quantum mechanics can 'prove' the existence of 'god' is pure bosh, and as you say beyond the point here. But the postulate itself, as an expression of christian debate tactics, is relevant. It reflects on your attitudes, it reflects on the branch of christianity you possibly represent, and eventually it reflects on all christianity. The last because us non-believers aren't that interested in sorting out the differences between your 34.000 denominations.

Though in this case I will take a personal interest and commend the thread-author as being a christian whom I can share a world with, as opposed to your kind, which aspire to exclusiveness, but actually comes across as non-credible to those outside your self-containing model.

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

I believe right at the moment or the last hour before they die, Christ comes to them in the spiritual, and comforts them and brings to them salvation.

If that is the case, wouldn't good people be better off not being told about Jesus in the first place?

According my understand of what you are saying, if someone leads a virtual life but has never heard of Jesus, then he will be saved at the time of death, but if the same person were told of Jesus but rejected that belief, he would be sent to hell for eternity.

So in other words, if a Christian had not spread the "good word" to him, he would not have had a chance to reject the teachings, and hence he would have avoided hell altogether.

If only it would be that simple. We will all have to wait till we meet that day of our end I guess. It will always be there to deny that there is a God and that He sent a Savior, and that the Savior preached to love one another and not to judge. But it's too simple for most to except, they rather choose their own destiny when it comes to their soul.
Days like these were prophesied to happen, and it surely is.

As an argument you refer to something, which is expected to happen. 'Expected to happen' by YOUR doctrinal system, which in one of its manifold manifestations already has made app. 40 similar (failed) predictions since the emergence of the christianities.

And that's only the christian collective. Other religions and ideologies are on the prediction market also, so what brand of prediction is the consumer of ideological postulates expected to choose (if any)?. And on what grounds should a choice be made (if any)?.

I would like to highlight one sentence of yours:

"If only it would be that simple."

If you don't agree with simplicity, why are YOU then taking a rather simplistic stance yourself by presenting a 'I'm right, because I'm right' theist position.

The competing/opposing truth/reality-seeking systems of theism (such as science/logic) are on the other hand aware of the complexities of existence and slowly create answers not taken out of thin air.

So until you have some more substantial arguments for your missionary postulates, I suggest that mankind should live according to the the attitude expressed in the OP:

Quote: [" I cannot pretend to know the answer to this story. Simply put, I’m not qualified for obvious reasons."]

A sound person with a sound attitude. Live and learn, Hawaii.

reply to post by freedish

Originally posted by freedish

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by freedish

 

Um...no. You see, there's no evidence of the afterlife, so you're just idly speculating. Your speculations are about as useful as those of someone claiming that there is a microscopic unicorn kingdom on Pluto conspiring to assassinate Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

Dude this thread is about fundamentalist Christianity vs. liberal Christianity...not whether or not there's an after life.

Technically this is a thread about a fault in Arminianism, but it does speak to the idea of the afterlife. You said that Jesus can save people after death...but where's the evidence for this? You don't even have evidence within your religious text (which itself doesn't really constitute evidence as it's entirely unverified on such matters), let alone external evidence. My point was that you are idly speculating in response to a sharp criticism of the general doctrine that salvation comes through "Christ" alone.

This is like if I came into an argument about what fast food restaurants hamburger is better and said fast food sucks. It doesn't really add anything to the topic and is kind of irrelevant.

...so you're just going to keep going there. I'm saying you're idly speculating, you latch on to the fact that I said that the afterlife isn't verified...which was merely to point out that there isn't any verification for your claims.

But even though your response is completely irrelevant i will entertain it anyways.

Except that I demonstrated why it is relevant...

Think about Pythagoras...he suggested that the Earth must be round because a sphere is a 'perfect' shape, and only a spherical Earth would match with the perfect harmony of the Universe. He didn't provide much of an empirical foundation for this assertion, he was mainly going off a 'hunch'. Well he turned out to be right.

No, he turned out to be wrong. The Earth isn't a sphere, it's an oblate spheroid. It is not a perfect shape by any stretch, there are parts of it that bulge out and it's sort of flat at the poles.

What can we learn from Pythagoras?

That brilliant people can make stupid claims?

Just because there is no hard evidence doesn't mean something is not true.

And yet the only reason we're saying Pythagoras was close to true is because we have hard evidence...which sort of undercuts your whole discussion.

In all fact, hard evidence or at the very least logical argumentation is what is needed to add credence to a claim.

Rather just because science can't prove the existence of God at this time

Even though it should be really easy considering all of those claims that Christians make...

(well actually quantum mechanics can but that's for another time)

*facepalm*

No, it doesn't.
You do not understand quantum mechanics, and I really hate the general use of it by the scientifically illiterate to demonstrate this or that ridiculous and unfounded claim. It's not magic, it's material science.

doesn't mean He doesn't exist. We simply don't have the tools to measure/weigh/analyze Him.

At the very least, we should have evidence of this beings direct intervention in the natural world. We don't have all of the right methods to analyze dark matter, yet we can measure its interaction with the world around it.

Then again it doesn't really take a scientist to answer this question...you could just look up at the sky and and stare in wonder at the beautiful harmony of everything and conclude God exists.

The "It's all so pretty" argument? Seriously?

For one thing, the universe is far from harmonious, it's chaotic and harsh. Parts of our own solar system are basically shooting galleries (take a look at the moon, you don't get all those craters from harmony), the sun is a barely stable fusion reaction that regularly ejects masses that are bigger than the totality of our planet, and there are all sorts of other insanely grand displays of rampant destruction through the universe.

Furthermore, I find the universe incredible, I look up at it some nights on my roof and think "Wow, I'm tiny" ...and yet...I don't have any conclusion that a deity must exist.

This is most clearly a non-sequitur.

Premise 1: The universe is (beautiful/harmonious/wonderful/pretty).
Conclusion: God exists.

The conclusion is not derived from the premises.

To add a Hindu perspective to the argument

we ALSO believe that you need a spiritual master (guru) to enter heaven. (although there are recorded exceptions to this rule also)
But in the goat herders case it doesnt matter that he didnt have one because he will be reincarnated and if he has a been a pious man (as you have written him) he will have an opportunity for this is the next life..or one after that... or at some life in future.

Just because you have a spiritual master does not GUARANTEE entry to "heaven" - you still have to work off your karma. Gurus are guides. They aren't the be all and end all.

reply to post by RADHESYAM


A nice addition to the 'inclusive' attitudes, too seldom seen or heard, but actually making up a majority of mankind, if mankind is permitted to make its own decissions.

If I understand you correctly, I agree. A guru can be a great importance (IMO to some, but not all), but you have to walk the path yourself.

Yes you understood me correctly. :-D

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

I believe right at the moment or the last hour before they die, Christ comes to them in the spiritual, and comforts them and brings to them salvation.

If that is the case, wouldn't good people be better off not being told about Jesus in the first place?

According my understand of what you are saying, if someone leads a virtual life but has never heard of Jesus, then he will be saved at the time of death, but if the same person were told of Jesus but rejected that belief, he would be sent to hell for eternity.

So in other words, if a Christian had not spread the "good word" to him, he would not have had a chance to reject the teachings, and hence he would have avoided hell altogether.

If only it would be that simple. We will all have to wait till we meet that day of our end I guess. It will always be there to deny that there is a God and that He sent a Savior, and that the Savior preached to love one another and not to judge. But it's too simple for most to except, they rather choose their own destiny when it comes to their soul.
Days like these were prophesied to happen, and it surely is.

That was an excellent back-and-forth. I see wisdom in both points of view and will not pretend for one moment to know the answer.

Thanks folks!