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Originally posted by GenRadek
Originally posted by ANOK
BTW that is also not a steel framed structure, try actually doing that with steel, it wouldn't work because weight to strength ratio is higher for steel than masonry. The steel floor plates of the WTC would not shatter if they impacted each other, the concrete might.
What happens when two objects of equal mass collide Gen?
Originally posted by Varemia
Originally posted by ANOK
BTW that is also not a steel framed structure, try actually doing that with steel, it wouldn't work because weight to strength ratio is higher for steel than masonry. The steel floor plates of the WTC would not shatter if they impacted each other, the concrete might.
Actually, to my knowledge there has been no attempt to demolish a steel framed building in that manner, so your statement is fairly groundless.
Just trying to make that clear...
Originally posted by hooper
But they will generally fall down, which is what happened on 9/11.
30 floors can't crush 80 floors, is what I've been saying, right? Now if it was 55 floors crushing 55 floors, do you think it might make a difference?
What happens when two objects of equal mass collide Gen?
Originally posted by GenRadek
reply to post by Yankee451
Well gee, nice job there attacking his introduction, and some minor details, but I've noticed you didnt go into an detail as to his calculations, his models and diagrams, or anything truly relevant. Why is that? Too complicated? How are his mathematics and calculations wrong? How are his observations and models wrong?
Nice try Yankee.
Originally posted by GenRadek
So when 30 floors impact one floor, what happens to that floor? Does it disappear? Vanish? Its mass just no longer exists and is relagated to the 10th dimension? Come now ANOK, I know you know better than that.
I wasnt aware that the WTC were solid one piece objects made of the exact same material without any voids, spaces, or connections.
Plus, again, you are forgetting that the floors themselves were not solidly connected to the whole building as in a conventional building with a conventional steel skeleton supporting the entire structure. The floors in the WTC were just steel decking placed on top of trusses and each end was just attached to a welded on seat, plus a dampener. There was nothing else along the span of the floor truss that added a vertical support. That was the the whole idea of "tube-in-tube". And exterior set of vertical columns and an interior section of vertical columns that were connected by long span trusses that are very similar to those used in common structures' roofs, like warehouses. No more columns to take up space nothing. Great for large, unimpeded spaces for business, offices, that can be sectioned off with drywall, sheetrock, etc to each owners delight. Not like in regular steel skeleton structures where there are vertical columns throughout the structure, and not allowing much wide open spaces. When the WTC started to collapse, all that stood in the way of the falling 30+floors was a large wide open floor, which were held up by a series of 5/8" and 1" bolts on each side of the floor trusses. There was absolutely nothing in terms of structure that would have stopped the collapse, and the force was readily apparent when searching through the steel, the seats on which the floor trusses sat, were completely torn off from the exterior and interior columns. This is why you are using faulty assumptions, as the WTC was not just a solid perfect body that had two perfect solid bodies impacting each other. I dont care how many times you say "equal and opposite reactions" and "N3rdL forbids it", you are just wrong in your assumption.
Once the collapse began, the 30 floors moved down as one mass, impacted the floor below, crushing it, and then the mass of the floor destroyed added to the mass of the collapsing section. Then it was nothing more than a chain reaction, as the next floor was impacted not by 30 floors, but the remains of 31 floors. Then the one below was impacted by the remains of 32, and so on and so on. The lower 80 floors is not a solid object that will shrug off the 30 floors moving down in one unit. What you have to get through your head is that you have 30 floors moving as one unit impacting 80 seperate floors below. One floor is crushed, it is now a part of the mass that is moving down. Also what else is happening? Mass is constantly being added to the initial mass that is moving down due to gravity. Each floor destroyed is now added into the initial mass. What happens to the force of the debris when mass is added as it collapses?edit on 3/25/2011 by GenRadek because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Varemia
Until it is scientifically tested, it is still just an assumption and holds no factual weight.
For example, we all know gravity works. That is a fact that anyone can test, and until someone drops a ball and it goes up instead of down, people will believe that gravity exists and pulls things toward the earth. It is verifiable because anyone can test it and see its effects.
Originally posted by ANOK
because it IS mass that determines the damage received by colliding objects. Yes other things come into play, but only when the major physical laws have already been explained, and they haven't, and they can't be explained by the structures construction. In fact the opposite would be more the case, the buildings structure would resist its own collapse.
edit on 3/21/2011 by ANOK because: 911wasaninsidejob
Originally posted by ANOK
Originally posted by GenRadek
So when 30 floors impact one floor, what happens to that floor? Does it disappear? Vanish? Its mass just no longer exists and is relagated to the 10th dimension? Come now ANOK, I know you know better than that.
But you don't have 30 floors hitting one floor, you have 30 floors hitting 80 floors. Didn't you understand my explanation?
I can only go by what happened, and all the floors were gone post collapse. So when do you think the floors were pulverized, according to the OS? The only way it seems possible, if explosives were not involved, is when the floors impacted each other. I'm not going to explain the physics again as to how the 30 floors could have not lasted long enough to completely pulverize the lower 80 floors.
I wasnt aware that the WTC were solid one piece objects made of the exact same material without any voids, spaces, or connections.
Well no one said they were. If you want me to use a different term to ease your misunderstanding I will, lets replace solid object with 'many solid objects all constructed to have a safety factor of at least x2, all joined to act together in order to keep the building from collapsing from it's own weight', or something similar.
Do you really need every single thing explained in minute detail just so you have nothing to nit pic at?
Plus, again, you are forgetting that the floors themselves were not solidly connected to the whole building as in a conventional building with a conventional steel skeleton supporting the entire structure. The floors in the WTC were just steel decking placed on top of trusses and each end was just attached to a welded on seat, plus a dampener. There was nothing else along the span of the floor truss that added a vertical support. That was the the whole idea of "tube-in-tube". And exterior set of vertical columns and an interior section of vertical columns that were connected by long span trusses that are very similar to those used in common structures' roofs, like warehouses. No more columns to take up space nothing. Great for large, unimpeded spaces for business, offices, that can be sectioned off with drywall, sheetrock, etc to each owners delight. Not like in regular steel skeleton structures where there are vertical columns throughout the structure, and not allowing much wide open spaces. When the WTC started to collapse, all that stood in the way of the falling 30+floors was a large wide open floor, which were held up by a series of 5/8" and 1" bolts on each side of the floor trusses. There was absolutely nothing in terms of structure that would have stopped the collapse, and the force was readily apparent when searching through the steel, the seats on which the floor trusses sat, were completely torn off from the exterior and interior columns. This is why you are using faulty assumptions, as the WTC was not just a solid perfect body that had two perfect solid bodies impacting each other. I dont care how many times you say "equal and opposite reactions" and "N3rdL forbids it", you are just wrong in your assumption.
Once the collapse began, the 30 floors moved down as one mass, impacted the floor below, crushing it, and then the mass of the floor destroyed added to the mass of the collapsing section. Then it was nothing more than a chain reaction, as the next floor was impacted not by 30 floors, but the remains of 31 floors. Then the one below was impacted by the remains of 32, and so on and so on. The lower 80 floors is not a solid object that will shrug off the 30 floors moving down in one unit. What you have to get through your head is that you have 30 floors moving as one unit impacting 80 seperate floors below. One floor is crushed, it is now a part of the mass that is moving down. Also what else is happening? Mass is constantly being added to the initial mass that is moving down due to gravity. Each floor destroyed is now added into the initial mass. What happens to the force of the debris when mass is added as it collapses?edit on 3/25/2011 by GenRadek because: (no reason given)
Yes I've heard that explanation a million times. Again you are ignoring the laws of motion and moment conservation.
You are contradicting yourself also, it can not be 30 floors hitting ONE floor, it is 30 floors hitting 80 floors.
If you want to include all 30 floors, then you have to include all 80 floors, as they BOTH act as one block, or ONE floor. I already explained this and you just ignored it.
Equal and opposite reaction. If the impacted floor is going to be crushed by the falling block, then the forces are equal on both. BOTH floors are attached to the columns in the same way, if the fasteners are compromised on the impacted floors then they will also be equally compromised on the falling floor. They both have the same mass and the same fasteners, the mass of the floors above the one impacting floor is less than the mass of the floors bellow the impacted floor.
The big thing that is missing in your hypothesis is the falling floors, where did they go? If the falling floors had the mass to crush through 80 floors then where did they go? The crush up hypotheses is nonsense, there is no reason they top section would crush itself if it was strong enough to crush through 80 floors.
A true progressive/pancake collapse does not work like that, floors don't crush lower floors while staying intact themselves. The floors impact and either crush each other or they simply stack up in a PANCAKE. There HAS to be intact floors left in the footprint because there is not enough energy to completely destroy themselves.
You really have to come up with something better than the tired old story we've been debunking for years to convince me mate.
edit on 3/25/2011 by ANOK because: 911wasaninsidejob
Originally posted by vipertech0596
reply to post by ANOK
No, you have 30 floors hitting one floor. Then you have 31 floors hitting one floor, then 32....33....34.......
Originally posted by FDNY343
So explain how bullets can puncture through a concrete wall?
Explain how a paint fleck can cause a huge crack in the space shuttle's windshield?
Here is a simple experiment that anyone can try.
Take a soda can. Any soda can will do. Beer cans will work also.
Place it on a level, flat, solid surface.
Now, place your fot on top of it, and slowly add your weight to it, making sure to place you foot on the middle, and use straight down pressure. Does the can immediately collapse? Nope.
Now, raise your foot 1 foot from the same can, and quickly stop on the can. Does it crush? Yes. That is the difference between a static load, and a dynamic load.
Very simmilar to what occurs during the collapse of the towers.
Originally posted by ANOK
They can? What bullets mate? You need to be far more specific because I know for a fact a regular round will not penetrate a concrete wall, most won't even penetrate a car door. I was in the military mate, you need to do better than that to convince me.
Originally posted by ANOK
Hmmmm can you?
Originally posted by ANOK
LOL you do realise that your leg is not just dead weight right, you have muscle pushing it down like a mechanical press, or a piston. That is not dead weight falling on dead weight.
Try dropping cans on cans to get a closer analogy, like a third of a can falling on a whole can. You OSers fail every time with your analogies.