Libya no-fly bid 'legal without UN'

I would just like to add to my last post that to me instigating a no fly zone and bombing AA as has been proposed is foreign intervention no?

Also Who have the Libians supposedly asked for help from, and do you have any sources because i would genuinely like to see them.

reply to post by Phantom28804


So its ok for a dictator to slaughter his own people if they rebel?

So if America becomes theofascist and starts slaughtering millions of people, especially the patriots who rebel against it, thats ok?

I assume you can't stand the fact that France intervened in an internal revolution known as the American Revolution? Had they not intervened, the US would not exist.

That history is what gives us the right, it is our birthright and heritage. We have aided nations in liberal revolutions since the US began.

America is still America. We have been doing this for two centuries. Where do you think Texas came from? This is nothing new.

Originally posted by moosevernel
I would just like to add to my last post that to me instigating a no fly zone and bombing AA as has been proposed is foreign intervention no?

Also Who have the Libians supposedly asked for help from, and do you have any sources because i would genuinely like to see them.

The president of Libya's newly-formed National Council has told Sky News that if Tripoli does not liberate itself then the rebel army will take it by force. In his first interview since being elected, Mustafa Abdul-Jalil appealed to the international community for help.

He said: "Tripoli is fighting against oppression and when it falls the regime will follow. Now the support around (Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi) is collapsing.

"What we want is an air embargo to stop Gaddafi bringing in mercenaries."

news.sky.com...

reply to post by MikeboydUS


First and foremost is that your only argument that you bring to the table? Trying to shame people by implying that we don't care if people are dying?

Do you care that millions have died in Chad, Rowanda, and other African nations thanks to the LRA? Obviously no one else in the world cares as not one country has through to intervene there least of all America. So how can you justify preaching about what a thousand in Libya?

The French did indeed assist the US in gaining it's independence you are right about that, however don't fool yourself for a second in believing that the French did not have alterior motives. For one I am sure they thought they could get there feet into the door in America at the time they still had there hands in Florida and other locations, so it was not purely friendly.

As for Texas well I think the reasons for that are somewhat obvious as Texas is now part of the US along with New Mexico, and Souther California. Gee wonder what the motivation was there...

So I think you just further proved my point rather then your own.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


The American revolution and your hypothetical new American revolution have nothing to do with this situation.

And once again i say nobody is condoning the actions of the Libyan government.

Libyans knew and know what they were letting themselves in for, they dont want our help, and we are in no position to give it tbh.

I actually read somewhere (ill try and find a link) that the Libyan people will fire on any foreigne military who intervenes and i assume that also counts as aerial intervention. Intervention is intervention wether it is aerial or boots on the ground imo.

BTW i am not here to argue with you i just wanted to bring this to peoples attention.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by moosevernel
I would just like to add to my last post that to me instigating a no fly zone and bombing AA as has been proposed is foreign intervention no?

Also Who have the Libians supposedly asked for help from, and do you have any sources because i would genuinely like to see them.

The president of Libya's newly-formed National Council has told Sky News that if Tripoli does not liberate itself then the rebel army will take it by force. In his first interview since being elected, Mustafa Abdul-Jalil appealed to the international community for help.

He said: "Tripoli is fighting against oppression and when it falls the regime will follow. Now the support around (Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi) is collapsing.

"What we want is an air embargo to stop Gaddafi bringing in mercenaries."

news.sky.com...

Thankyou for that link i hadnt read that.

One big flag saying no foreign intervention( that is probably staged propoganda anyway) does not speak the thousands being slaughtered. This 'I am alright Jack' mentality has to end. We are all one people on this planet. Borders are meaningless. Death and suffering is anything but meaningless.

Originally posted by moosevernel
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

A picture speaks a thousand words so they say.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/81ff7f1a03cf.jpg[/atsimg]

edit on 1/3/11 by moosevernel because: (no reason given)

Indeed, it does speak a thousand words. Any idea if this photo is taken in Libya, or is the photo taken outside Libya where they would have access to such fine printing equipment to make such a professional banner? It just seems awfully professional a banner to have been produced in Libya under such chaotic conditions, and according to reports, minimal technological luxuries. If this photo was taken within Libya I would personally question whether it was created by the people or by the Libyan government.

Originally posted by nonnez

A picture speaks a thousand words so they say.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/81ff7f1a03cf.jpg[/atsimg]

edit on 1/3/11 by moosevernel because: (no reason given)

Indeed, it does speak a thousand words. Any idea if this photo is taken in Libya, or is the photo taken outside Libya where they would have access to such fine printing equipment to make such a professional banner? It just seems awfully professional a banner to have been produced in Libya under such chaotic conditions, and according to reports, minimal technological luxuries.

Apparently it was demonstrators in the main square in benghazi, i am not sure how to confirm the legitimacy of the pic.

Okay after reading more it seems Libyans support no fly zone, but it has been said by military officials that t would be a military operation with targeted air strikes, which i know Libyans do not want.

IM confused

reply to post by Phantom28804


Humans are opportunists. We can't deny that its in the nature of the species.

Humans are altruistic creatures. If you think the only reason that nations intervene in affairs is for opportunities, thats not right. Opportunities have a role, but so does human altruism. Most people do not like to see other humans suffer, especially if something can be done about it.

I do care about what happens in Africa. There are others that care as well. The problem is that we have too many egoists that don't care and are more worried about themselves than helping others.

reply to post by moosevernel


We arn't going to use airstrikes. SecDef Gates pretty much ruled that out earlier.

We will assist the opposition in any way that does not offend them or bring dishonor upon us, i.e. humanitarian relief (food/medicine), supply drops (weapons/ammo), and foreign aid (money).

Here is an article from the guardian about no intervention:

Libya is United in Popular Revolution - Please Don't Intervene

Don't get me wrong. I, like most Libyans, believe that imposing a no-fly zone would be a good way to deal the regime a hard blow on many levels; it would cut the route of the mercenary convoys summoned from Africa, it would prevent Gaddafi from smuggling money and other assets, and most importantly it would stop the regime from bombing weapons arsenals that many eyewitnesses have maintained contain chemical weapons; something that would unleash an unimaginable catastrophe, not to mention that his planes might actually carry such weapons. Nevertheless, one thing seems to have united Libyans of all stripes; any military intervention on the ground by any foreign force would be met – as Mustafa Abud Al Jeleil, the former justice minister and head of the opposition-formed interim government, said – with fighting much harsher than what the mercenaries themselves have unleashed. Nor do I favour the possibility of a limited air strike for specific targets. This is a wholly popular revolution, the fuel to which has been the blood of the Libyan people. Libyans fought alone when western countries were busy ignoring their revolution at the beginning, fearful of their interests in Libya. This is why I'd like the revolution to be ended by those who first started it: the people of Libya.

Looks like i am not the only one with this opinion:

Cameron backtracks on Libya no-fly zone plan as US distances itself

The change in rhetoric from Britain came as the US made clear it would adopt a more cautious approach and European diplomats expressed surprise at Cameron's rhetoric. Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, giving evidence to the House foreign affairs committee , suggested military intervention by the US and other countries might be counter-productive. She said the administration was aware that the Libyan opposition was anxious to be seen "as doing this by themselves on behalf of the Libyan people – that there not be outside intervention by any external force. We respect that."

Cameron backtracks on Libya no-fly zone plan as US distances itself

It clearly would be a military operation with air strikes which it seems nobody wants to do anymore except UK which is why the story in this OP matters so much as it seems as they are going to do it anyway with or without the backing of the UN tbh.

Originally posted by moosevernel
It is no business of ours. They do not want foreign intervention. Nuff said.

What do you base this on? One picture might say a thousand words but it certainly can't speak for an entire country. Can you even say for certain that the (as another poster said, a seemingly professionally made) banner was not made and placed by pro-Gaddafi elements? Who wants foreign intervention least do you think? Some figures in the interim Government in Benghazi would support international military intervention and some have said that they want it. Some people, the majority that I have seen, interviewed on the streets have been frantically calling for this for days/weeks. Others believe that they could sort it out themselves and have said that they specifically do not want international help. It’s a matter of opinion.

Personally I don’t think that this level of “assistance” or “intervention” is necessary. It might take a while to get Gaddafi out of the picture, bar someone doing him in of course, but I don’t see Gaddafi ever regaining control of the country. If a no-fly zone is implemented, what happens if one of our jets is shot down? What happens if we shoot one of Gaddafi’s jets down? Bad things. Some have suggested beginning the whole thing with air strikes, which is surely an act of war in itself.

I believe that we should simply continue and escalate what we are doing now; whittle away Gaddafi’s support and strengthen those opposing him. Use propaganda and the intelligence services etcetera to lean on Gaddafi’s inner circle, tribes loyal to him and others who are propping him up. Arm, organise, train and use other means to support anti-Gaddafi elements and provide aid. Without the armed opposition who have been resisting offensive actions by Gaddafi loyalists, many more innocents would have been killed and Gaddafi would not only be far more able to take ground but he would also be far more keen and able to use violence against his people. I think that we should step up these efforts and wait a while before taking it to the next level. At the moment it looks like given a little support and time, they can sort Gaddafi out themselves.

As far as assassinating Gaddafi is concerned, I don't know whether or not it is a good idea and these things are never certain, but I'm sure that others are weighing it up or have plans in place. I like the idea personally, if only because we owe him for supporting the IRA. Air activity where I live has significantly increased over the past couple of days, we see military helis pretty much every day anyway, but recently there have been a lot of exercises involving Typhoons and SF. Today they were so intense that people were pulling up on the side of the road to watch, it was like our own personal air display! I even managed to snap an Apache this morning. I’m not saying that it’s definitely related but it’s a bit of a coincidence if not.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by moosevernel

 

We arn't going to use airstrikes. SecDef Gates pretty much ruled that out earlier.

We will assist the opposition in any way that does not offend them or bring dishonor upon us, i.e. humanitarian relief (food/medicine), supply drops (weapons/ammo), and foreign aid (money).

And that is something i wholeheartedly support, just not any form of military intervention

The only interest or concern western governments have with Libya is purely based on oil. Oil has rocketed 10% since the Libyan crackdown. But, why is it that we don't see calls for Mubarak, Ben Ali, Abdullah Salem or Suleiman to face this type of intervention and face internation war crimes trials... because we're really not that interested in their exports.

Why are we not invading Sudan or the Ivory Coast or any other number of nations currently revolting against their regimes? Because we're not interested in the coc aine, or coffee they supply. Sure Afghan has opium, but they also have oil. As long as we have the oil, theres no real need for our intervention. Look at what happened in Venezuela. A staged coup and mass protest followed by the ousting of their president, whose people then marched - peacefully - for his return to power, which is what happened.

There is no justification to involve our armed forces in the region, if we aren't willing to free everyone from tyrants, why bother to free anyone? Godhafi is not the worst by a country mile.

I do not condone this action and any and every British, American and NATO allied soldier should refuse their stationing anywhere near this part of the world. This is not about freedom, it's about staged democracy - the type that we saw slaughtered by capitalism - and control of the worlds oil reserves for the greediest nation states... us.

reply to post by Soshh


TBH that was not what my OP was about anyway. I was just trying to bring the news story to peoples attention and also just thought it would be a really bad idea because there would be a huuuge chance for escalation in my opinion. (good post btw)

To add; those talking about the airlifts of British nationals out of Libya might be interested to note that out of the 2 'rescue' missions, on the first there were 53 British nationals and 47 'other', and on the second only 20 British and 130 'other' - this leaves behind several hundred, if not thousand, stranded British ex-pats who should have had their place on this flight out. Who the hell are we airlifting out of Libya if not our own people? If their government won't pay to charter them out why should we? I guess where rescue is concerned you need to have the right credentials above and beyond nationality, which probably means those seats went to the highest bidders. That's the mentality we're dealing with.

Can I ask someone to explain to me how a no fly zone would be enforced? From what I can figure out myself it would require Gaddafi to adhere to the no fly zone, and if he did`nt would action be taken against him and would it be military action?

Originally posted by Pr0t0
The only interest or concern western governments have with Libya is purely based on oil. Oil has rocketed 10% since the Libyan crackdown.

Exactly. For what reason I have NO idea as they only have 2% of the world's oil reserves. But hey, whatever works selling this to the populous of the Americans and British.

But, why is it that we don't see calls for Mubarak, Ben Ali, Abdullah Salem or Suleiman to face this type of intervention and face internation war crimes trials... because we're really not that interested in their exports.

C'mon. There's no hypocrisy here. Just because Saudi Arabia beheads people for crimes that wouldn't be crimes anywhere else and remains a western ally doesn't imply hypocrisy.

Yeah, that was thick sarcasm. The UN has no teeth because they haven't got a yin to the western yang. Yet. I'm actually looking forward to the Russians finding their balls again and challenging the rampant world interference of the west. Who else can do it? China? Pfft.

Originally posted by psilo simon
Can I ask someone to explain to me how a no fly zone would be enforced? From what I can figure out myself it would require Gaddafi to adhere to the no fly zone, and if he did`nt would action be taken against him and would it be military action?

and that is exactly what i dont want

but it will probably happen anyway regardless