Originally posted by roxdog
Driving is a right. The state is not God. Sorry.

[edit on 18-7-2004 by roxdog]

If driving is a right why do you have to take a test to get a license?...Its not a right...he was correct...

so travel is a privilage.......or is it just driving..or maybe airline travel is a privilage..or maybe train travel is a privilage or maybe bus travel is a privilage......for air travel you are getting very close to having full criminal background checks ect....when i was in law enforcement, they regulary did searches of the greyhound buses that were doing a stop over. doesn't realy sound like freedom of travel......with the tech now available....just your full name will give the pole-leaz a full report of your life....your d.o.b will just verify who you are...don't believe that......be a cop for a while...........

my whole point with this post is that travel in america is becoming less and less free.......since this has become a very long thread...i ask again.....with all the restrictions that are now starting to show up in regards to travel in the u.s. ...is there a larger plan to make travel very restrictive, needing to show full id, and reason to travel around the u.s.

bush said something to the affect that the 'terrorists' will not change AMERICA...............hmmmmmmmmm...i think somebody has a much different view of what Ameica should be...hasn't America changed significantly since 9/11???? if you THINK it hasn't.....you are not paying attention.

i think the tree of liberty needs to be watered................................

Originally posted by BasementAddix

Originally posted by roxdog
Driving is a right. The state is not God. Sorry.

[edit on 18-7-2004 by roxdog]

If driving is a right why do you have to take a test to get a license?...Its not a right...he was correct...

When the Libertarians win the elections you wont need a drivers license.

Its just another way for the government to squeeze a few bucks out of you, and for uncle sam to stick his ever growing nose futher up..... well you get the idea.


the only reason ANY of you came up with that its not a right is because the government says its not a right.

If you dont believe what this I advise you to vote Libertarian to get rid of this and a lot of other stupid laws

You don’t have to have a license to drive, you just have to have one to drive on public roadways. The same thing goes for insurance, tabs, etc. The state cannot take away your right to operate a vehicle, but they can take away your ability to operate it on the roadways that they built and maintain (with your tax dollars). In that sense, it seems to be much more of a privilege than a right.

Originally posted by para
You don’t have to have a license to drive, you just have to have one to drive on public roadways. The same thing goes for insurance, tabs, etc. The state cannot take away your right to operate a vehicle, but they can take away your ability to operate it on the roadways that they built and maintain (with your tax dollars). In that sense, it seems to be much more of a privilege than a right.

If its your tax dollars that built the roads should not that give you a right to drive on them? If you paid for it does it not in a way belong to you?

Well… yes. Ideally. But under that same logic, we should be able to tell police officers to go to hell when they pull us over because our taxes pay their salary (not to say that some of us don’t, but you get the idea). They would essentially be employed by us, so we could tell them what to do.

I’m not saying that the current situation with licenses, tabs, registration, etc. just to drive on public roads is right. On the contrary, it just seems to me like a way to milk more money out of the average person. But, that is how I see the laws interpreted and enforced.

I think you are all taking this way too far. Tell me how many police checkpoints you were stopped at today, this week, this month. Personally I have driven through one in 4-5 months and I was waved right through. Is it really that big of a deal to show your DL and insurance? Maybe they search your vehicle, if you have nothing illegal then whats the problem? If you do have drugs or something then you deserve to be pulled over. A whole 5 minutes of your day lost. I personally feel safer knowing that people are being checked and arrested for drunk driving, drugs etc. at checkpoints. All though it is annoying to be pulled over at night and told your one your headlights isn't working . (Happened to my dad)

When the Libertarians win the elections you wont need a drivers license.

Thats a scary thought. I know a lot of people who should definitly not be on the road. The only thing stopping them is that they have failed the driving test 5+ times. I passed on my second attempt. Missed a speed limit change the first time or I would of passed. It's incredibly easy, so if you can't pass you shouldn't be driving. The last seconds of my second tests went like this:

Test guy (old cop): Do you have a Driver's Manual?
Me: Yes
Test guy: You should read it sometime....... You passed.

LOL I was sure I failed for a second

[edit on 19-7-2004 by RogueX]

Air force bases are built using taxpayers' money. That does not mean all taxpayers have a right to sleep on the runway.

With the exception of trespassing, you are free to walk where you wish. No license is required for this.

There are genuine threats to civil liberty, some are imminent and frightening in their possibilities. This is not one of them.

Originally posted by Majic
Air force bases are built using taxpayers' money. That does not mean all taxpayers have a right to sleep on the runway.

With the exception of trespassing, you are free to walk where you wish. No license is required for this.

There are genuine threats to civil liberty, some are imminent and frightening in their possibilities. This is not one of them.

You do not have a right to sleep on the highway either but you should have a right from BOTH to the services that you paid for.

The right for the Air Force to fight to protect you from other countries (that is what your taxes paid for not a place to sleep) and the right to use the roads to travel which today is done mostly by car.


The imminent and frightening dangers are easy to spot its the sneaky ones you have to gaurd against. Like some posted on another thread about cooking a frog slowly, you will lose your rights a little piece at a time until someday they are gone. The government will not annouce one day "Obey our every command or die" or "From this day foward you have no rights" they will sneak in one good sounding seemingly harmless law after another until they dont have to.


And to the post about it keeping bad drivers off the streets, my step-dad is in his 70s and cant see past the hood of his car and gets lost going to the store.

Guess what?

As long as he pays the fees they will let him drive and there are millions more just like him out there, that should tell you right there that they are MAINLY interested in just collecting a little more of our hard earned money not protecting us from bad drivers. Like you said yourself almost any idiot can pass the test.

If its your tax dollars that built the roads should not that give you a right to drive on them? If you paid for it does it not in a way belong to you?

The basic assumption of taxes is that each citizen is pitching in to pay for services for the greater good of the society as a whole, not for individual perks so the road belongs to all citizens but not the individual.

It's the differences between your taxes paying for the city to come and renovate your house and the city maintaining roads for the greater good of the community as a whole.

It's a weird logic but there it is, right or wrong.

Tax payin' spiderj

Originally posted by RogueX
I think you are all taking this way too far. Tell me how many police checkpoints you were stopped at today, this week, this month. Personally I have driven through one in 4-5 months and I was waved right through. Is it really that big of a deal to show your DL and insurance? Maybe they search your vehicle, if you have nothing illegal then whats the problem? If you do have drugs or something then you deserve to be pulled over. A whole 5 minutes of your day lost. I personally feel safer knowing that people are being checked and arrested for drunk driving, drugs etc. at checkpoints. All though it is annoying to be pulled over at night and told your one your headlights isn't working . (Happened to my dad)

[edit on 19-7-2004 by RogueX]

Rogue - this is all fine and good today. The idea that if you are doing nothing illegal then you should have nothing to hide is fine as long as we the people still have a say in what is legal and what is not. But it seems that we are losing control at a breakneck pace. In fact, I would say we have lost control. So, today it is no big deal to have a checkpoint. But the problem is - once you give the government this kind of control - to invade our privacy and demand random proof of "whatever" you have opened the door for a creeping dicatorship. And already the laws are getting more and more restrictive. We are loosing our liberties every day - and one day (probably soon) they will cross that line and there will be laws you don't agree with but will be held to none the less. And you have already opened the door for them to oppress the people and enforce it. There will be no means to overthrow a wickid government at that point - probably even at this point. Don't forget that many have faught and died for these liberties we so freely give away these days. After complacancy comes opression - do a little homework on the typical cycle of democracy. We are on our way out.

Rogue - to be more specific here....

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution in 1778, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinborough, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian republic some 2000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simplycannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy,(which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage."

Where do you think America lies in this cycle?


[edit on 21-7-2004 by badkitty]

Originally posted by Spiderj
It's the differences between your taxes paying for the city to come and renovate your house and the city maintaining roads for the greater good of the community as a whole.

It's a weird logic but there it is, right or wrong.

I don't find it weird at all. The greater good is the cornerstone of our society. From medicare to SSI, its a greater good concept. I payed for that M1A2 tank, but that doesn't mean I can take one home from the nearest base. It is an UNDERSTOOD part of our society. People can chose ot live in it, or live elsewere. However, most societies are based on the common good thoery. In regarads to paying fee's for using roads etc. Part of the fee should and does go for administering the DMV, etc. However, I agree that if the funds are not being used for the purposes they are for, ie gas taxes, vehicle fees going towards raod maint. they should be lowered.

I am most vehemetly opposed to checkpoints. It seems to me that whatever shroud of 'public safety' they are based upon, they are mainly revenue generators. It is now a jailable offense to operate a motor vehicle without proper license, registration, and insurance. To some this may seem perfectly acceptable, but it throttles me that a man can be arrested and jailed for nothing more than a failure to fatten the pockects of insurance companies and state budgets. And contrary to widespread believe, we are safe.

As a matter of statistics consider this: the '01 WTC attacks resulted in the deaths of 3,000 plus American citizens vs the same 280 million citizens now residing within this country. I know this sounds callous, but consider it as a matter of odds. Do we really need to lock up people who drive safe(or some what:duh only because they failed to participate in the game, but are otherwise wholesome and productive citizens. I really despair everytime I hear some body say that as long as you are not breaking any laws you have nothing to worry about. It smacks of ignorance and imbecility.

But you know what, more power to them. For my part I intend to jump ship to a country who has some sense of compassion for their fellow man, Say Canada? And before you say good and fare well to you, I say that it is with a great pain that I make such a statement; having once been a staunch patriot and a confirmed veteran of this countries armed forces. It saddens me indeed but I fear we are lost.

Originally posted by phreak_of_nature

Originally posted by Montana
Anyone who gives up his freedom for safety deserves neither.

Thought that was Ben Franklin.??

It was. The above paraphrase isn't quite accurate either. Franklin said that people who give up essential liberties for a small measure of saftey deserve neither.

The Supreme Court ruled that its a crime ( i don't know what the penalty is, fine, imprisonment, whatever) to not present your id to a police offer upon request. Thats sort of new, and I'm not sure how I feel about it completley. But its not really an essential liberty.

Dam the American government is strict, it just makes me so happy to be Canadian