Michigan Carpenters Union Outsources Protesters

Wonder if this is one of their standard benefits?

The Mackinac Center for Public Policy discovers that the Michigan Regional Council of Carpenters uses non-union labor to protest a Grand Rapids area businessman. What's worse, the union has even recruited demonstrators who frequent local homeless shelters, including a shelter which gets help from the very same businessman targeted by the union.

reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II


This does not surprise me at all. The lies, deceit, bullying, and extortion that go on with the unions is all true. I myself am a union member and have witnessed it first hand. thats why I moved to a right to work state . (Just my opinion).

reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II


I'm not saying that this is false but The Mackinac Center is a right wing think tank. I would question their motives. When you have a link from a reputable source and not just a youtube link from conservative group I might believe what is being claimed.

Did they check the protesters for union membership cards?

Maybe some of the homeless people are out of work union carpenters.

I would bet that business owner being protested is a member or donor to the Mackinac Center.

reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II


When I google the title of your thread, I can only find references pertaining to the video from The Mackinac Center. I cannot find a reputable news source to verify this information.

And The Mackinac Center have their own motives on this issue.

Originally posted by iamcamouflage
reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II

 

When I google the title of your thread, I can only find references pertaining to the video from The Mackinac Center. I cannot find a reputable news source to verify this information.

And The Mackinac Center have their own motives on this issue.

Well, I guess as soon as it shows up on Huffington Post, I'll post a link for you, seeing as you seem to use them quite a lot in your threads. We all know how unbiased they are.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by leemachino



Did you watch the video?

Originally posted by Ferris.Bueller.II

Originally posted by iamcamouflage
reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II

 

When I google the title of your thread, I can only find references pertaining to the video from The Mackinac Center. I cannot find a reputable news source to verify this information.

And The Mackinac Center have their own motives on this issue.

Well, I guess as soon as it shows up on Huffington Post, I'll post a link for you, seeing as you seem to use them quite a lot in your threads. We all know how unbiased they are.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

So instead of posting evidence of your claim. You attempt to discredit me. Good work on your part. I only asked for evidence of what you are posting.

You have just used a common fallacy called: an ad homenim attack. Instead of making your own case you have chosen to simply attack me in order to discredit my request.

Its a thin vale that most people will see through.

Originally posted by iamcamouflage

So instead of posting evidence of your claim. You attempt to discredit me. Good work on your part. I only asked for evidence of what you are posting.

You have just used a common fallacy called: an ad homenim attack. Instead of making your own case you have chosen to simply attack me in order to discredit my request.

Its a thin vale that most people will see through.

What do you qualify as a "reputable news source"?

Here's an article from The Grand Rapids Press.

GRAND RAPIDS – Pickets who said they are being paid by a carpenters union have been calling “shame” on Spectrum Health, Saint Mary's Health and Van Andel Arena for several months.

As a picketing crews set up in front of Spectrum Health's Lemmen-Holton Cancer Pavilion this morning, they said they could not comment and handed a reporter a leaflet similar to one being handed out in front of Van Andel Arena.

“We're just being paid to hold up the sign,” said one of the pickets as they set up their banner at the corner of Michigan Street and Coit Avenue NE.

reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II


Hey, all I was asking for was a source beyond The Mackinac Center. I accept the Grand Rapids Press as a reputable source.

Read my first post, I didnt say your OP was false, I was only pointing out that the only source you had was not even from a news organization. It was from a right wing think tank.

I merely asked for a legit source and you attacked me instead looking for something to back the claim.

Now that we can verify that this is happening, lets discuss the meat of the issue with paid picketers.

The irony of this is that people who oppose unions, are implying that they wish, the picketers had their own unions. The reporter in the video asks the picketers if they have a union? Is that what they really want? Would they be ok with the picketing of a non-union company if the picketers had their own union?

At least for me, the questions raised by this are:

1) Why is the carpenter's union picketing Ritsema seeing as they've never contacted them about any dispute?

Bill Ritsema, majority shareholder of Grandville-based Ritsema Associates said the union has never contacted him or his company.

Are there other motives other than a labor dispute?

2) Why is the carpenter's union members not manning the picket lines themselves, rather than paying other people to picket for them?

“We're just being paid to hold up the sign,” said one of the pickets as they set up their banner at the corner of Michigan Street and Coit Avenue NE.

Is this a practice other unions employ also?

reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II


I cant answer why the union didnt make a legit dispute.

I would guess that the union is paying people to picket is because most carpenters have to work(economy) and cannot take time off to picket. Times are tough and carpentry is hard work with long hours(even in a union).

Unions are not inherently bad. Unions can be damaging when their workers are non-skilled(ie. auto union). Carpenters, pipe fitters, electricians, etc. Are skilled workers and need to be represented.

In another thread someone mentioned Kelly services as a top employer in this country.(I have worked for them) and they are no different from a union except for the fact that they are a for profit agency that pockets the extra money that a union would give to the workers.

The average Kelly employee earns around $15 an hour, but they charge the company they are providing work to, about 3x that. So when "Dow Chemical" hires via Kelly, they are paying Kelly ~$45/hr for your work, but you only get ~$15/hr. So the question becomes would you rather pay $80/month in union dues to get $45/hr or pay $4800/month to work for Kelly and have them "represent" the companies best interests and not yours.

"Dow Chemical" is paying the $45/hr for your time anyway. But when a for profit company like Kelly Services represents you vs. a union, you see much, much less of that $45/hr and the Kelly CEOs take the earnings that you are technically being paid for.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


Kelly Services is a contracting company, not a union. As far as I've ever heard no contracting company has ever claimed to be a union, or picketed any other company. Contracting companies mostly deal with short term manning jobs, and, at least none I've worked for, ever promised me a health plan or retirement, like unions do. I see very little similarity between contracting companies and unions. Apples and oranges.

reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II


I'm not say Kelly Services is a union. They are not, but they operate in a similar fashion except they pocket the extra earning from their negotiating with the companies that hire them.

They may claim to be "temp" hiring service but most of their employees are long term open ended employees.

I worked for them for many years. I rarely received a raise and had to endure pay cuts, meanwhile they are charging 3x my salary to "represent" me and provide me with insurance(that I could get cheaper through Bcross&Bshields if my employer didnt offer any at all.

If I had been in a union, i would have paid my union reps much less to earn much more of what the company was paying for my time.

Unions are responsible for most of the good things and rights that workers have in this country. There has been a very directed attack against them from groups representing the corporations, ie The Mackinac Center. The people who are on the board of The Mackinac Group are business owners who would love to break up unions so they can pay their workers less and pocket more of the profits for themselves.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


Kelly Services does not operate like a union. To join a union you need to get a union position first. Whereas with Kelly Services they find you a job. Did Kelly Services find you a job, or did you have to find your own job to work for them? Did Kelly Services ever promise you anything they didn't deliver on? I worked quite a few years for a couple of local contracting companies on jobs they found me, and I was promised an hourly rate for a guaranteed number of hours a week. I always got a paycheck each week for that. I never felt entitled to more because they made more than me, because I was never promised to more. I personally know a few people who contract to other companies on their own, and they cut out the middle man entirely. Except of course the federal, state, and local governments want their shares. That's one middle man you can never cut out, at least legally.


Is there anything holding you back from joining a union? You seem to have a high regard for them, and I don't understand why you don't join one.

EDIT: Got to sign off for the night. Work tomorrow.