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What would REAL House reform look like?

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posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 03:45 PM
Responding to this thread:

got me to thinking, what would a real reform of the House look like?

Here's my vision:

Restore the House to its proper Constitutional size proportional to population, revoking the 1911 freeze. That freeze in size was in response to the success of women's suffrage and rising minority participation: if the House grew as it should, it would have become far to expensive to buy/control. The Constitution says that Representatives shall not exceed one per 30,000 citizens, and until 1911 was increased in size each census. Current districts are simply too large:

The average size of a congressional district based on the Census 2000 apportionment population will be 646,952, more than triple the average district size of 193,167 based on the 1900 census apportionment, and about 74,486 more than the average size based on the 1990 census (572,466). Of the seven states with one seat in Census 2000, the population of the largest — Montana — was 905,316, compared with an average size of congressional district in the other 43 states of 646,259. Wyoming, also with one seat in Census 2000, had the smallest district size, with 495,304.

Whoever "represents" 646K+ people in actuality represents one but himself, for he can say with impunity that X's interests are far outweighed by Y's based on the preponderance of the voters' beliefs in his district, and who could prove him wrong? The reason we are in the mess we are in is not because government's too big: rather it is too small.

If we created Congressional districts that could not exceed a maximum size of say, 175K would make the politicians more accountable and more knowledgeable about actual conditions in their districts.

To manage the increase in size, three new chambers would be added to comprise a four-chamber House: A Business Chamber (the current House); a Science/Engineering Chamber responsible for building standards, infrastructure development, mining, drilling, research, space development; a Social Chamber responsible for health, housing, immigration, environment; a Coordinating Chamber responsible for maintaining clear communications between the various Chambers and the public, coordination and mediation of legislation, origination of legislation that doesn't fall within the purview of the other Chambers.

The size of each chamber would vary according to who wins the district: anyone can run for any chamber, but still only one Rep per district, thus New York City districts will likely elect members to the Business Chamber, while Santa Barbara would likely elect to the Science Chamber.

To pass a bill it must first pass its originating chamber, then pass a vote of the complete House. To ensure quality legislation, each Representative would be limited to introducing no more than four bills per year. To further ensure quality legislation, the form in which each piece must be submitted would comprise four seperate components:

1. The Body....the text itself.

2. The Purpose....the explicit reasons requiring the legislation, the explicit results expected from it, and the explicit chain of logic that gets from purpose to result.

3. The Authors....the actual, personal names of the person or persons who originated the legislation, the actual personal names of all who provided input to the legislation, the actual personal names of everyone whose suggested adjective, adverb, verb or noun is adopted in the bill as presented at each stage of the legislative process.

4. The Implications...what areas this legislation will effect beyond its immediate target area defined in tersm of Certain, Highly Likely, Likely, Possibly, Unlikely, Possible but Improbable. This section would be open to the public for their assessment and comment.

Institute a voter override system: if a national e-voting sytem were established, then in the event of another TARP bill, Patriot Act or the like coming up, if a sufficient percentage of the voters in a given district went in and voted against the vote of their Representative, the public's vote would rule.

Change the budget process so that after the various programs are approved and passed by the Congress, it is published online at secure voting/tax centers and allow taxpayers to allocate their own taxes into the programs deemed worthy or the general fund if they don't care to think about it. Once a program is fully funded, it drops from the list.

These changes would be evolutionary and fairly easily accomplished and assimilated if the public will were there.

What do you guys think?

posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 04:24 PM

No takers?

I'd expected to be called a commie fascist by now.

posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 04:40 PM
reply to post by apacheman

commie fascist!!!

posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 07:56 PM
reply to post by apacheman

We can't have a house with that many seats.. And even if we did, they'd still be bought and paid for. Easily controlled. Lobbies and corporations don't go looking for politicians.. They know how the pimp game works.. In fact, think of it like the pimp game:

Lobbyist pulls up on the curb. Chills for a bit, maybe has a smoke..
One politician comes striding on up to the car and offers his erm.. "services" ..
But it's tough times and good pick'ns, 3 more politicians come looking for the green and offer their "services" .. Lobbyist with the cash can easily decide which whore he wants (I meant politician) and simply lays down the ground rules it has to follow (oh noes, I've dehumanized the politician) and so the Lobbyist gives the Politician cash to run the campaign, by getting the service of pitching the corporations (that's the pimp) plans that it wants to see taken care of. Everyone gets their money, service and in the politicians case, job.

Politicians.. by their very natures are liars, cowards, thieves and whores.

posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 08:04 PM
reply to post by Rockpuck

It'd be an awful lot more costly to buy 2k or so representatives than 435.

Plus, if structured as described, and you encourage those running for chamber to have the relevant degree, training or experience appropriate for service in it, I think you'd find that those member would be harder to buy than business types whose entire beings revolve around buying and selling stuff: different mindsets, one of the points of the proposal.

posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 08:07 PM
everyone owns a gun
everyone votes on everything and gets a reciept, all counts verifiable.
everyone except government employees.

posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 08:14 PM
reply to post by apacheman

The best hope of reforming Congress is to throw out all the bums and get some real, everyday folks in there to write some commonsense laws that we don't need a lawyer to interpret for us.

Of course with all the political corruption out there today, getting the old group voted out without a new group of just a corrupt SOBs replacing them would be nearly impossible.

I guess we may have to hope some miracle comes along and clears out those scumbags for us:

posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 08:19 PM
its a good topic
fix it there, then the rest will right itself.


After the bailout where up to 90 percent of the peeps said NO and it is still got voted yes and is still flyin' (QE 2 and next QE 3 )
there's yer sign....

yes I realise what I said is anti semitic, but what the hell....

edit on 19-2-2011 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-2-2011 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-2-2011 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 08:49 PM
reply to post by FortAnthem

Changing the players isn't a solution if the game is rigged structurally as it is now.

Real reform requires structural changes that change the game, not the players.

posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 01:22 AM
I had hoped for a more substantive discussion.

Ah, well, maybe tomorrow.

posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 01:28 AM
reply to post by apacheman

We don't need the house at all- it is obsolete tech from 200 years ago.

Just let citizens vote directly by SSL on proposals by citizens.

Scary, eh?

posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 02:23 AM
reply to post by Chakotay

Did you read through my proposal?

We need the House or something like it. As far as I can see it is utterly impractical to try to run a country of 300 million+ as a straight democracy. What I've outlined is as close as I can come to it while also providing the country with some guidance, direction, and coherence.

My people, the Apache, were one of the few true democracies that ever existed; we had no chiefs as such, no hereditary positions whatsoever. A democratic meritocracy. But I don't see that as a viable option for societies larger than around 20K individuals, and they need to share a common culture and belief system, which the US lacks on both counts.

So some form of government is required: anarchy only works for the most primitive or most advanced societies.As a pragmatist I strive for what will work as best as possible, not unattainable ideals.

posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 09:45 AM
Your post is so smart and presented well, I am going to dissapoint with my reply, I'm sorry in advance. I have always hated politics and so am very uninformed. My humble thoughts are, Representatives should not be allowed to make a salary higher than the average CEO fron their district. They should actually work for and represent the people who elected them, instead of themselves, first, and second, those who bought them.

posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 09:47 AM
The entire GOP plan in a nutshell :

1. Continue and guarantee that the top 10% of earners don't have to contribute a thing to the economy.
2. Continually allow the banks to do whatever the flip they want and to blindly give them another multi trillion dollar bailout package whenever they get a bug up their tail.
3. Continually send our jobs oversees which will double and triple the unemployment rates.
4. Engage us in an armed conflict with Iran and North Korea while keeping the Wars Over Energy going.
5. Deny people the basic right to essential services like Medicaid, Social Security and cancel all social programs effectively leaving those like me who are unable to hold down a 40 hour 5 day a week job to fend for ourselves!
6. Allow time and time again the poisoning of our food and water supply while protecting the companies that are harming us.
7. Kill off the electric and non petrolchemical powered transportation.
8. Allow for more foriegn influence into our process domestically (law passages, elections)
9. Kill off any non white people!
10. Kill our chance to compete on the world's stage while cutting public school education while leaving the private schools alone.
11. Turn this "War On Terrorism" into a "Holy War" between Islam-Muslim and Christian-Hebrew!
12. Allow time and time again your health insurance company the control to deny you and your family any treatment they want. < These are the real "Death Panels" a bunch of insurance company employees sitting around dictating who gets what coverage.
13. Do nothing about this immigrant issue so the multi trillion dollar lobbyists firms can contunally exploit them for cheap and dirt cheap labour all the while not demanding that any of it remains stateside all while evading the Federal Income Tax laws,
14. Allow you to lose your job and home for whatever reason your employer and lender dictates and not have the populous the right to challenge any claim.
15. Return to an era whereas an African American was legally declared 2/3 of a person and Women weren't allowed out of the kitchen, forget about having the right to own property, hold down a job, have a say in matters pertaining to thier own bodies, have the right to vote, be forced to endure consistant beatings and belittements if they didn't have dinner done in time, being subjected to forced spousal rape. Do y'all really want to subject your daughters, mothers, sisters, aunts to this? African Americans would be forced back into the cotton fields stripped of all rights, properties, jobs, and all money earned. McCain admitted this while on The View in Ear 08!

posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 03:55 PM
reply to post by apacheman

Changing the players isn't a solution if the game is rigged structurally as it is now.

Real reform requires structural changes that change the game, not the players.

I have given this considerable thought. The problem is not the representation in Congress, the problem is the twisting of the Constitution in the first place.

The crucial point was the Supreme Court struggle against FDR. Prior to that the Federal government was kept in check by the Supreme Court as designed by the Constitution. FDR threatened to "pack" the Supreme Court by expanding the number of justices after the Court struck down a number of key New Deal programs as unconstitutional. The crucial case was Wickard v. Filburn (1942 where in defeat the justices ruled:

Homegrown wheat, "supplies a need of the man who grew it which would otherwise be reflected by purchases in the open market. Homegrown wheat in this sense competes with wheat in commerce."

It was now obvious that the Court had no intention of allowing the interstate commerce clause ever again to limit the authority of the federal government.

Alternate Source:

Since then even a family's dog giving birth to a litter of pups is considered the business of the Federal Government! (Animal Welfare act regulates pups)

posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 04:07 PM
reply to post by apacheman

The real question of course is how do we take back our country. As most have seen we can not do it in Washington DC. Protests are absolutely useless. As one ATS commenter who works in DC said, there are protests ever day of the week in DC. The media and the politicians ignore protests, phone calls, faxes, and e-mails unless it suits their agenda.


The biggest thing to remember is that TPTB has set up a very successful "Lets You and He Fight" scenario between the left and the right. That means first and foremost stay away from religion. Stay away from race and immigration and any other hot points. Our focus is to get rid of the root problem the Bankers who are bankrupting this country and the red tape that is strangling small business. We also want the antimonopoly laws enforces to get rid of the international cartels.

The key is to remember we have been given the weapons to fight TPTB, and no I am not talking about guns.

The biggest Achilles Heel of TPTB is the local and state governments. TPTB has tried to control it by using controlled "grassroots" organizations called NGOs who lure young "Activists" into the likes of the World Wildlife Federation. SEE:

For a couple years now I have pass out information on index cards at farmers markets, flea markets and auctions. I ask people to get educated about the FED and Fractional Reserve Banking and pass the information on to ten others. Stay away from big shopping malls that do not allow "solicitating" 501c Churches are not allowed to be active in politics, however since you are not campaigning but educating you may be able to hand out the index cards at churches. My list is at the bottom of this post.

Second: Take a leaf out of The fully informed jury movement

Inform the public and THEN pass state laws.

We have a RIGHT to a trial by jury in criminal matters or in civil matters over $20. Jurors have the RIGHT to NULLIFY laws. That is what "case law" is all about.

The fully informed jury movement:

FIJA seeks to require that juries be informed of their nullification rights. Informed jury amendments have been filed as an initiative in seven states and legislation has been introduced in the Alaska state legislature.

...the right of juries to judge both the law and the facts -- to nullify the law if it chose -- became part of British constitutional law.

It ultimately became part of American constitutional law as well, but you'd never know it listening to jury instructions today almost anywhere in the country....

Now a remarkable coalition has sprung up to challenge this secrecy as undemocratic, unconstitutional and dangerous. Though organized by libertarian activists, the Fully Informed Jury Amendment movement includes liberals and conservatives...

...many groups in this country feel the government has overstepped its power in some way and that there must be protection for the natural rights of American citizens. They are defending not only the right to protest or carry a gun or not wear seatbelts but challenging the right of the government to decide such matters without the mediating effect of a jury's judgement of fairness in a particular case.

State Nullification - Tenth Amendment
State nullification is the idea that the states can and must refuse to enforce unconstitutional federal laws.

In the many discussions across several states, questions have arisen concerning exactly how the "Tenth Amendment Resolution" will help....

The principal motivation came from the myriad of federal mandates which have been placed and are planned to be placed on the states. State legislatures feel they have little choice but to implement these mostly-unfunded mandates and pass the cost for implementation to the state taxpayers. For most state legislators, this is a very frustrating dilemma.

The Tenth Amendment assures that we, the people of the United States of America and each sovereign state in the Union of States, now have, and have always had, rights the federal government may not usurp. Article IV, Section 4 says, "The United States shall guarantee to every state in this Union a republican form of government.....", and the Ninth Amendment states that..."The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people".

We have, through apathy and lack of will, allowed federal legislators and bureaucrats to assert their will over us and commandeer our funds for their own use.... most of it today outside the authority granted to them by the Constitution.

When a state passes this resolution proclaiming its sovereignty, that state may then claim exemption to most federal mandates under the Tenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution....
by Colorado State Senator Charles Duke

Another weapon, one every single one of us should be pushing for, is state law allowing voters to recall federal Senators and Representatives as well as state officials.
Recall Congress Now Org

However this will be a bitterly fought battle. The last thing TPTB wants is their pet legislators worried about what the voters want instead of what they have been bribed to do.

While 18 of the 50 United States offer their citizens an opportunity to recall their elected officials, it is a fact that in our nation’s history, no federal legislator has yet been recalled.

It has not been for lack of interest. Rather, the process has languished in part due to debates on whether or not legal authority exists for recall of U.S. Senators and Congressmen; and, in the case of Idaho, interference by a state court prevented recall of a federal legislator....

After reviewing the body of law and opinion concerning recall, it is apparent that if recall of federal legislators is to succeed, it will likely only be after an intense battle in the federal court system as to the degree to which the courts will go to allow the literal meaning of the Tenth Amendment to be in force and effect.

As this author reads this language, it appears clear that " the States ‘ and " the people " living with in them, should be recognized to have the right of recall.

But in order to implement a strategy that will enable recall petitions to result in actual removal of errant Senators and Congressmen, considerable legal and political obstacles will present themselves and can only be overcome by understanding the lengths to which those opposed to recall can be expected to go...

Eighteen states have recall provisions. Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, Rhode Island, Washington, and Wisconsin all have recall of some kind available to their voters. Only seven of these states require any grounds.

Judges: Appointed vs elected? That is another question we as voters need to think very very carefully about.

Fight at the Federal level if we can but we must ATTACK at the state level NOW.

Recently I ran across Freedom Force International started by G. Edward Griffin who wrote The Creature from Jekyll Island: Federal Reserve His suggestion is the best way to BEAT the government is to BE the government. The stuff listed on the issues page is interesting reading and confirms a lot of the stuff I found on my own.

Web of Debt: How Banks Secretly Create Money:


The Creature from Jekyll Island: Federal Reserve,A talk by G. Edward Griffin:

More scholarly Reads:


Mises on Money

(the takeover of the media)
U.S. Congressional Record February 9, 1917: J.P. Morgan interests bought 25 of America's leading newspapers, and inserted their own editors, in order to control the media.

JP Morgan: Our next big media player? (April 13, 2010) JP Morgan controls 54 U.S. daily newspapers,and owns 31 television stations.

Media Conglomerates, Mergers, Concentration of Ownership:

posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 04:48 PM
Thanks for the links and input.

I agree that the 10th is the most ignored/abused amendment because of its limiting powers. TPTB fight to restrict its meaning every chance they get.

While the case you cited about wheat was a bad one, I think the recent corporation = person ruling far, far worse with broader implications, since it allows a single person, through multiple corporate identities, to multiply his voice to the exclusion of others. How long before corporatists demand the right of corporations to vote in elections? It is the logical extension of the thought.

I'll review the links.

Changing the state and local levels are indeed crucial: we need to change the type of person we are electing. Personally, I've lost all faith in the competence of business people turned politicians. We've had decades now of running government as a business and look at the results. Some aspects of business can be applied to some aspects of government, but running government like or as a business has proven to be a dismal failure.

A lifetime in business can't be undone or set aside when elected: a guy who has spent his whole life focussed on personal advancement and wealthbuilding won't stop just because he got elected, and he won't suddenly see the big picture, but as we have seen repeatedly, he will do what he did in business: cut deals for personal profit. he won't suddenly see his fellow Americans as co-equal citizens, he will view them as he always has: employees, competitors, or money sources.

A government needs to be run like a government, and not a chamber of commerce, giving highest and only priority to the needs of business. Government is about balancing needs and resources over the long term for the benefit of all, not surrendering to the whims and whistles of businesses rapaciously feeding the few.

posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 10:12 PM
reply to post by apacheman

While you are reading you might want to read Freedom force International by Griffin the author of "The Creature from Jekyl Island" about the Federal Reserve.

If nothing else go down about half way and on the left click on Darys of Infamy and then The war on Terrorism.

This dude does his research!

posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 03:40 PM

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by FortAnthem

Changing the players isn't a solution if the game is rigged structurally as it is now.

Real reform requires structural changes that change the game, not the players.

This is the first post of yours that I can say that I actually agree with. You can't change the game without going to Washington. Once the game is changed we can weed out the players. This would be the start of my "solution"

edit on 5-11-2011 by GringoViejo because: (no reason given)

posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 03:43 PM
reply to post by apacheman

You know what, when your posts aren't suggesting unconstitutional solutions, we agree on a lot of points.

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