I contend any possible alien visitors are not peaceful. Why? Let's argue from evolution. First, suppose evolution is true for all places. This means the more fit organisms are more likely to reproduce; those with advantages in the habitat tend to be the more fit.

What advantage does a large brain (correlated to intelligence) give you? It gives you the ability to make tools -- technology. Humans a frail compared to most animals, but what makes us successful is our intelligence. And we have to remember that the most basic instinct and purpose of all animals is to a) survive and b) breed. <-- This is evolution at its heart.

Going on, like all natural things, aliens will have limited resources. Therefore, getting to a planet at all would be a large investment. For example, the only way Columbus got funding was to claim it would make its financers money. To put it shortly, there are no rational reasons for an alien to throw away resources. This means there should be some sort of investment in coming to earth.

These are now our possible motivations:

a) A net gain in resources.
b) For survival.
c) For breeding.

For an easily supported assumption, I also contend a net gain in resources helps in both survival and breeding. Therefore, if we reduce motivations even more, any possible alien visit is probably for a net gain in resources.

What does this mean? A rational agent tends to want to maximize their resources. Negociation is not typically a way to maximize resources from this planet. This leads to only one conclusion: Warfare is inevitable.

We wouldn't have the slightest idea if Aliens would have limited resources or not. That is just an assumption.

My thought is this...An alien race travels lightyears away from thier original location with the intent of colonizing a new planet (earth). Do you really think that they are going to try and set up a pact or relationship with us? No way. What if we say NO? Are they just gonna hop from one life holding planet to another till they find one that will allow them to stay? I highly doubt it. If they come here for living and breeding purposes, chances are they are going to stay whether we want them to or not.

I would liken them more as a business that tries to bargain with a supplier who is also a consumer...and I think you're closer to the mark...

They obviously supply us with limited tech advancement, so the question becomes, what do we supply them with??? Unfortunately, the answer may be test subjects, even breeders.

I think radardog has some valid points. Looking at our own history, often times we will see how when one civilization meets a weaker or lesser evolved one, the latter part will have to conform to the will of the stronger party. Or be destroyed.

As for seeing the situation out of a consumer/supplier view. Well, sure. But I doubt this would be a situation where we could dictate the rules if we weren't happy with the deal we were getting.

They obviously supply us with limited tech advancement, so the question becomes, what do we supply them with??? Unfortunately, the answer may be test subjects, even breeders.

So are you saying that the abduction stories we hear about are ones set up by the gov't? Do they specifically tell the aliens who to take and then the aliens just take them from thier homes, cars, wheat fields, etc....? Or does the gov't abduct people, take them to a secret location that is designated for the specific use of the aliens to do their own research?

If the aliens do the abductions themselves, why would they need our permission? If they didn't, then we really don't have anything to offer them that they just can't take themselves.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
We wouldn't have the slightest idea if Aliens would have limited resources or not. That is just an assumption.

Granted, it is an assumption. All organisms on this planet have limited resources -- I just thought I might extend the principles from here to there. Even if we allow technology for some sort of unlimited energy (which doesn't sound very possible), that doesn't mean they have unlimited habitat or food (what resources tend to mean biologically).

limited resources.

Just a thought so dont shoot the messenger but i heard this somewhere.

There was massive energy from the big bang and there still is that energy all around us so if you could harness that........all the resources i nthe universe lol

If the aliens do the abductions themselves, why would they need our permission? If they didn't, then we really don't have anything to offer them that they just can't take themselves.

Same reason nobody else can fly in the skies without permission...because we'd shoot them down! I know, I know, everyone here seems convinced that we are simply powerless against the aliens....I simply refuse to believe it, as it doesn't seem to fit. If they were so superior, there would be no deal, and there obviously is some kind of agreement here....

Originally posted by Gazrok
I know, I know, everyone here seems convinced that we are simply powerless against the aliens....I simply refuse to believe it, as it doesn't seem to fit. If they were so superior, there would be no deal, and there obviously is some kind of agreement here....

Gazrok - I recall in another thread where you elaborated on your own sighting, and that when it occured, it was only young children, and from what you could recall none of the children could get their parents to wake up...

So going off of this, how do you support your previous statement? It seems they had a great deal of control that night...and also the fact that they seemed to have a targeted auidence - I think you likened it to Close Encounters of the Third Kind, so would your arguement be that it was more of a show than a "pied piper of hamelin" situation? Just curious

[edit on 7/15/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

Originally posted by Fitzpatrick
limited resources.

Just a thought so dont shoot the messenger but i heard this somewhere.

There was massive energy from the big bang and there still is that energy all around us so if you could harness that........all the resources i nthe universe lol

There is a lot of energy everywhere. Consider E=Mc^2 --

Every bit of matter around you is potentially energy.

But that still wouldn't answer limited resources in terms of biology: A species can only populate so much before it runs out of food or habitat. (And as a side note, the Earth is getting pretty packed). Nature dictates that whenever a species overpopulates, then it eventually runs out of food which, in turn, causes mass starvation and death.

Why do species overpopulate? Typically they are too successful in their niche. Technology can and has done this. With technology, humans have:

Lengthed Life Span
Allowed more and safer births
Cloned (not humans -- yet!)
Produced more food.

All of this contributes for a larger amount of people that can exist at one place for a given time. When you consider what even more advanced technology can do, one can only wonder about an intelligent species that has been around longer than us.

Why do species overpopulate? Typically they are too successful in their niche.

Overpopulation is a major concern in our day-to-day lives...but what about the concern of genetics.....we can barely control the spread od AIDS.....the list of postive genetic attributes that you've listed below: "Lengthed Life Span, Allowed more and safer births, Cloned (not humans -- yet!), Produced more food." Are but a small representation of our currrent world-wide population.......this is perhpas 1-2% of our world population.....consider third world countires that thirve off of contaminated breast milk......these people are not usaing excess energey, but survivng off of what is provided - and like it or not, population-wise, they are the majority....

[edit on 7/16/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

[edit on 7/16/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

The way I see it:

Hostility is shown towards natural competitors on every biological level. However, hostility is rarely shown between non-competitors because it requires redundant use of energy. Creatures that evolve on different planets are obviously not natural competitors since they are not reliant on the same resources.

Therefore, no hostile aliens unless they consider us to be a future threat to their resources or themselves. And given technical superiority of creatures that may already be travelling interstellarly, I doubt they would feel very threatened by us.

An alien race attacking us would be analogous with the human race deciding to, deliberately, exterminate all the whales and dolphins of the sea.

[edit on 16-7-2004 by electric]

I was trying to draw a picture of needless slaughtering of animals that pose no threat and are not a food source. Perhaps whales and dolphins was a bad example for that, since some nations do consider them a food source. But it is a good example of how humans could get killed in a process performed by non-terrestrial entities similar to the drift netting of whales and dolphins. Thanks for pointing that out.

I don't think that their intentions are just visit us. Most of people don't consider UFO-aliens as a thread. My point of view is: How is the best way for not being considered a thread? Thousands of people have seen UFOS, exist some real pics and videos, but never seen an attack or hostile attitude. So, we are used to see UFOS as an unexplained thing. But if they decide to show another face...? They are here for some reason, not tourism.

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun
Overpopulation is a major concern in our day-to-day lives...but what about the concern of genetics.....we can barely control the spread od AIDS ... this is perhpas 1-2% of our world population.....consider third world countires that thirve off of contaminated breast milk......these people are not usaing excess energey, but survivng off of what is provided - and like it or not, population-wise, they are the majority....

[edit on 7/16/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

Third world countries are those who have a current concern of overpopulation. They can not provide themselves enough resources to survive. As a result, we do see many of them starving to death. Not to mention, those too have technology; nearly all of them have some sort of shelter that protects them from the elements -- the technology they do have helps them survive a little better than no technology. Moreover, HIV can be medicated enough nowadays that one can live a pretty full healthy life with it.

Once first world nations have more population than it can provide for, biologically, the same sort of problems third world nations have with starvation, the first world nations will too. The fact is, if humans continue to reproduce exponentially (which occurs for nearly every other species on Earth), then eventually we will run out of space and food.

Where else to find more space and food than a planet like Earth, assuming we found one? We, too, will need to expand for resources -- perhaps other intelligent beings are doing just that.

It makes sense that this will eventually occur...I don't think that it would ever reach a level such that we would be in the same boat as third world nations....we have the luxury and ability to plan for future generations, while their primary concern is with keeping their current population alive. thus negating that possibility, short of some major disaster that could occur at any moment, but even then....we have plans, and sadly they do not

I think the US gov't really started taking this seriously when they began exploring the possibility of living underwater in the 50s - considering it's 99% of Earth's space, it would be the next logical step....but after the space race man had visions of other possibilites, more distant than before - With modern day pollution levels, it is quickly becoming the only solution

But that is our situation here on Earth.....how do we know that an alien species even requires excess resources? Some species may be able to function in their own environment w/o anything more.....maybe their features compose the majority of the rest of what's out there...maybe they don't....but we also thrive off of many varied and specialized resources - some have multiple uses and some only have one - we could be so far ahead or so far behind certain species that we are a speck on the horizon

I also think we would see a greater chance of the explotation of resources on planets within our own solar system before they would decide to attack a planet with such a large population - either to allow more time for reinforcements or to see our potential strength and to gadge from our intial attempt at what will be required for elimination

Or there's always they possibility that they have equal morality as our own and will be like the friendly neighbor going next door for a cup and a half of sugar....of course that's more utopian, but still a possibility...

All this thrives off of the belief that they have evolved in a smiliar econmic nature of supply and demand....and that could be way off.....maybe they're all a bunch of Ted Bundy's who just want to kill and maybe they're a bunch of Ghandi's, extending a helping hand and desiring peace - or a mix, just like us....they can't obviously be more knowledgable than us though....or else they would know that in a general sense, we all want peace, we would gladly share or establish trade and that we wish no harm....short of being some invading hord that lacks any common sense, they would be proven less intelligent than us to deny that chance

radardog....no offence here, but your beliefs are ultimately flawed. You can believe whatever you want, but you are judging an Alien race by Human standards. On Earth we call this Ethnocentrism, meaning that you judge other cultures by the standards of your own culture.

When talking about issues such as this you have to assume from the start that their values and actions are much different than our own. This would be like comparing Western culture to the Bushmen of the Calahari Desert in Africa...the two simply cannot judge each other!

People always seem to forget that the sociology, biology, and environment of an Alien world may differ greatly from our own. These factors and others are what creates a "culture" if you will, and so by saying that an alien race is "evil" or "good" is simply not relevant as they may not have a concept such as "evil" or "good"....

....I think you see what Im getting at!

"considering it's 99% of Earth's space, it would be the next logical step....but after the space race man had visions of other possibilites, more distant than before - With modern day pollution levels, it is quickly becoming the only solution"

Underwater is REALLY hard. Considering we have made it to the moon, but we haven't touched the bottom of some trenches. However, in either case, this is the same concept: expansion.

"alien species even requires excess resources"

I'm not talking about excess resources. I'm just talking about resources. And every living thing we know of at least requires some type of resource. Something, assuming they have a chemical makeup, must be had for those organisms to continue to produce energy.

"I also think we would see a greater chance of the explotation of resources on planets within our own solar system before they would decide to attack a planet with such a large population "

Consider how far we've been able to look through the universe so far. It is the odd fact, that most of the planets we've observed outside our solar system are thought to be gas giants. It could be the case that the Earth is the closest and cheapest planet to go to.

Morality or not -- we're talking biologically. Both Ghandi and Hitler had to eat (eventually, for Ghandi's case).


"Alien race by Human standards. On Earth we call this Ethnocentrism, meaning that you judge other cultures by the standards of your own culture. "


When have I even mentioned a human culture? I have been going off of evolution and the implications thereof. Nor am I judging the hypothetical alien culter; just stating that if it is biological, then it will need resources.

If anything, I am being Evolutioncentric -- which I have already stated that I first assumed that they were a product of evolution.