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POLITICS: British Nationalists Show True Colours

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posted on Jul, 17 2004 @ 04:37 AM
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Wow. Y'know, Eastern_Diamondback, you'll probably make a stronger point if you figure out how to use the quote function properly.



Originally posted by Eastern_Diamondback
www.newzimbabwe.com...

The suggestion that immigrants from Zimbabwe be barred from entry to our country, and sent back to the restrictive and dangerous regime currently in power in that country, because they might be ill is exactly the type of selfish nimby-ish crap I've come to expect from the anti-immigration lobby. AIDS is a threat to the entire world - this issue demands that we ignore arbitrary boundaries and petty differences and apply ourselves to curing those who suffer under this dreadful affliction.


www.spiked-online.com...

Uh, do you realise that your own figures show that if immigrants from Africa are a contributing factor, they are certainly - and demonstrably - not responsible for the bulk of the increase in AIDS. The main contributing factors are - and have been since the disease was identified - unprotected sex between consenting adults and the contaminated trappings of drug use.

If you are going to decontextualise the statistics of your choice in an effort to support your poorly-considered rants, you really need to take more care.


www.gangland.net...

And your point was... what? Some young men commit crimes, so all immigrants are evil? Can you say "knee-jerk"? In my life, every criminal that I have ever been the victim of - from the moron who stole my wallet to the idiot who broke into my car and ran off with a stack of CDs and, somewhat bizarrely, a plastic bag full of empty wine bottles heading for the recycling bin - has been white. Does that mean that we must immediately ship these caucasian thugs back to where they came from? After all, if you go back far enough, er're all immigrants...


www.obv.org.uk...

This link does not appear to work - however, since none of the other links you supplied make any kind of convincing case, it fits right in.


Well you tell me what would have been had that ricin not been discovered. You let me know what your economy will be like after a terrorist attack is launched in London. The moslem fanatacists best weapon is the psycholoy of fear being implemented.

So you are now suggesting that tighter immigration is necessary to fight the evil booger-man of international terrorism? Did immigration control prevent the WTC disaster, or the bombings n Madrid?

The psychology of fear isn't just employed by the fundamentalist, Eastern_Diamondback; it's also a weapon of choice for the outdated right-wing rascists who will grab at any piece of dubious evidence in an effort to make their case.


You deserve an award for idiocy.

Well, you'd be the person to hand it out.



Islam is no more problematic than than the others? Show me some examples. The only other groups that behave so barbaric are your ideological comrades, the communists killers in South America.

It is a constant source of enormous amusement to me that anything right-wing idiots don't understand is automatically labelled "communist". Never mind the long and complex history of a highly-developed political and philosophical system - a communist is anyone who disagrees with a bucktoothed, undereducated redneck hick's vision of "liberty".

It would be even funnier, of course, if this little nugget of unutterable stupidity wasn't currently the prevailing opinion in the White House.


As for crimes, I think no one here disagrees with punishing the guilty and that violence against the innocent is unnacceptable.

And yet you are suggesting we bar the immigration, and enforce the deportation, of entire ethnic communities for committing no crime whatsoever. Doesn't that suggest a certain amount of hypocrisy?


The global elitist politicians are under such a dominion. Politicans use such issue as tools for another election: pet minorities of various races and religions as a guaranteed voting bloc.

And now we're getting to the meat of the issue: that you are afraid that he whole world is out to get you. The "global elite" are secretly nurturing a global multicultural society which exists solely to screw you, and your small-minded fearful buddies, out of your jobs.




Social benefit is an objective concept, however much cultural relativists despise such an idea. Are your people more or less affluent, content, safe, or free because of the immigrants, or despite them?

I find it astonishing, and not a little worrying, that such a primitive idea can be still be in circulation. "Social benefit" can only ever be a subjective concept, as defined by those inhabitants of the society which is facing the changes in question. To suggest that an objective benefit exists is to ignore the various and multifaceted desires, needs and proclivities of different cultures. Let me illustrate this with an example:

If all the bigotted morons who continue to believe that rascism, homphobia and misogyny are acceptable were loaded on to a rocket and shot off into space, I would be smiling, the world would be a brighter place, people of all creeds and colours would live together happily and society would finally shed the primitive fears which have retarded it's development for so many centuries, while you would be lonely. You see?

Relativism in action.


www.dawn.com...
jimball.com.au...

The first link, interestingly, tells us that some muslims were opposed to the crudely-executed attack on Iraq. I hope this doesn't come as a shock, but many, many people opposed Dubya's indulgence of his personal vendetta against Saddam.

The second link is to an opinion column from the right-wing newspaper, The Sunday Times. If you're resorting to using opinion as evidence, Eastern_Diamondback, there really is no hope for you.


You also just overlooked the major point. Why is diversity an end in and of itself?

Enrichment and progress can only come through education and experience. We experience, we learn, we improve. Multiculturalism - and multitheism - provides us with the opportunity to enlarge our frame of reference and, by so doing, improve ourselves. Of course, that is to ignore the physical benefits of imigration and cultural diversity, in fields as diverse as architecture, food, music, literature, and many more, and the most important argument in favour of cultural, social and ethnic diversity: anything which pisses off ignorant right-wingers has to be a good idea.


National growth must occur naurally, whithout coercion and social engineering by those of limited foresight.

And what is the free movement of people if not a natural mechanism? It is the same mechanism which, in ancient antiquity, populated the globe. Surely preventing this movement of people would be the artificial intervention you seem so worried about?


The "nut" (Uncontrolled immigration and non-assimilation) is the root of the problem.

No, the people who commit the crimes and perpetuate hate are the root of the problem. "Uncontrolled immigration" is a simple target for those simple-minded souls who have trouble understanding the complexity of the real world.


It's only fraudulent stats and pseudosociology when it isn't in line with your Marxist/Maoist religion. It's too bad academia is a slave of this faith. It's as oppressive as Islam.

My marxist/maoist what?
Again with the accusations of communism! Do you actually understand what communism is Eastern_Diamondback?

Listen carefully to this: the reason "academia" supports my position rather than yours is that we are correct. It has long been the last resort of the outwitted ignoramous to protest that the evidence is controlled by their ideaological opponents.

And I won't even deign to comment on the breathtaking arrogance and ignorance of the "oppressive as Islam" statement.


That is a mark of the stupid and ignorant: you're not afraid of the perils in front of you.

On the contrary, I'm very well aware of the threat which faces me and my country - the threat, Eastern_Diamondback, of fascist right-wingers like you.




posted on Jul, 17 2004 @ 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by Eastern_DiamondbackYou let me know what your economy will be like after a terrorist attack is launched in London.


Err, we've had dozens of serious terrorist attacks in London over the past 3 decades....... Mostly perpetrated by ignorant, white, racist, bigots.



posted on Jul, 17 2004 @ 07:56 AM
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because they might be ill is exactly the type of selfish nimby-ish crap I've come to expect from the anti-immigration lobby. AIDS is a threat to the entire world


It is no one else's responsibilities to mop up Zimbabwe's problems. Being able to immigrate to another land is not a human right. It's a privilege. Fixing the problems of the third world cannot be accomplished through immigration.


this issue demands that we ignore arbitrary boundaries and petty differences and apply ourselves to curing those who suffer under this dreadful affliction.


And boundaries don't exist by chance, there's nothing arbitrary about them. They are a natural extension of the territorial and tribal essence of the human species. Borders mark the extent to which a people can defend the land which sustains their lives and livelihood, however affluent or destitute they may be.


The main contributing factors are - and have been since the disease was identified - unprotected sex between consenting adults and the contaminated trappings of drug use.


Short term memory problems? The article stated Zimbabweans alone are responsible for HALF THE HIV CASES IN BRITAIN.



www.gangland.net...
And your point was... what? Some young men commit crimes, so all immigrants are evil? Can you say "knee-jerk"?


You claim drugs were a serious social problem in Britain. Here's evidence that shows the role immigrants from Jamaica play in that devastating societal plague.


In my life, every criminal that I have ever been the victim of - from the moron who stole my wallet to the idiot who broke into my car and ran off with a stack of CDs...has been white.


That's great. Nothing like unprovable anecdotes to make a point. Hey, if we're going to go that route, when I was in Birmingham the 4 years ago I was robbed, beaten, spit on, and shot by a gang of pakistanis, jamaicans, zimbabweans, and a couple other immigrant nationalities. So now I'm right.


Does that mean that we must immediately ship these caucasian thugs back to where they came from? After all, if you go back far enough, er're all immigrants...


Everyone of your comments has completely ignored anything I've said previously. Where did I call for mass deportation? Where did I say all immigration all throughout history has been evil and destructive? Nowhere, because I never said any of those things.


So you are now suggesting that tighter immigration is necessary to fight the evil booger-man of international terrorism? Did immigration control prevent the WTC disaster, or the bombings n Madrid?


Oh my god! It all makes sense now. You really are this dense. How do you think the Sept. 11 hijackers got in the US? They weren't native born. In fact, they pretty much were all in the US illegally, commiting visa fraud by supplying false information, violating the terms of their visas or by overstaying their visas. Tighter immigration controls are absolutely necessary to fight moslem terrorism.


it's also a weapon of choice for the outdated right-wing rascists who will grab at any piece of dubious evidence in an effort to make their case.


It's official, you can't debate. You've yet to provide a shred of evidence to support your religion.


Well, you'd be the person to hand it out.


I'd only be presenting it to you. You'd be actually winning it.


It is a constant source of enormous amusement to me that anything right-wing idiots don't understand is automatically labelled "communist"


It's a tongue in cheek assessment, unlike your reference to those who teach you something you refuse to learn as "right wing idiots." I understand now that it's your euphemism for "intellectual superior" so I'll be taking that as a compliment too.


And yet you are suggesting we bar the immigration, and enforce the deportation, of entire ethnic communities for committing no crime whatsoever.


Back up your assertion with a quote for once. Immigration is to be a benefit for the host before the guest. In the event of a conflict of interest, you must defer to the welfare of the host. I'm dying to know what these cultural benefits from mass immigration you are receiving are. You've yet to detail anything other than diversity itself. Maybe you need some diversity on other issues. How about female genital mutilation? Is that an enriching influence for Britain? Maybe you could import some Taliban ideas on women's rights. That would be enlightening and beneficial, wouldn' it?


The "global elite" are secretly nurturing a global multicultural society which exists solely to screw you, and your small-minded fearful buddies, out of your jobs.


First of all, they aren't doing anything in secret. WTO, UN, NAFTA, EU are all set up to isolate power and influence into the hands of a few. Their idea: to mold humans into nothing more than subjects, consumers, and social guinea pigs. Countries are to become markets and breeding laboratories. I'm not worried about my employment status. I do fine enough to allow me and my family to travel abroad every year to enjoy the cultures that you wish to see dead.



posted on Jul, 17 2004 @ 09:02 AM
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"Social benefit" can only ever be a subjective concept, as defined by those inhabitants of the society which is facing the changes in question.


Sure, that's why the immigrants you champion seek the "subjective" benefits of living in western nations. How many of your like-minded comrades are clamouring for life in Mozambique? Where's the massive European envoy to North Korea? Actions speak louder than your religion.


If all the bigotted morons who continue to believe that rascism, homphobia and misogyny are acceptable were loaded on to a rocket and shot off into space, I would be smiling, the world would be a brighter place,


Good to know what you think of freedom of thought. But I think you should be allowed to think it. Even if I were in power.


people of all creeds and colours would live together happily and society would finally shed the primitive fears which have retarded it's development for so many centuries, while you would be lonely.


Well, at least we know you're a Stalinist. Anyone who could cause a problem in your utopia would be liquidated, and since you can't insure that agitators won't be born in the future, you'd have to kill everyone that stirred up trouble.

I await some real world examples, you know, one's based on evidence and logic, to support your religion.


You see?


So your vision is now proof of something?


The first link, interestingly, tells us that some muslims were opposed to the crudely-executed attack on Iraq.


The article was written in 2001. There's no mention of Iraq anywhere. Here's what the article says:

Four in 10 British Muslims believe Osama bin Laden is justified in mounting a war against the United States
Britain has a Muslim community numbering about two million. Forty percent of those surveyed thought that British Muslims who went to fight with the Taliban were right to do so.
Asked whether it was more important to be British or Muslim, 68 percent chose their faith.


Learn how to read.


The second link is to an opinion column from the right-wing newspaper, The Sunday Times. If you're resorting to using opinion as evidence, Eastern_Diamondback, there really is no hope for you.


Argue the evidence, not the messenger. If Hitler said 1+1=2 would you call him a liar?

Can you dispute: Mohammed Abdullah, a 22-year-old accountant from Luton, told The Times: "We don't perceive ourselves as British Muslims. We are Muslims who live in Britain. All Muslims in Britain view supporting the jihad as a religious duty."


Enrichment and progress can only come through education and experience. We experience, we learn, we improve.


None of which require massive immigration. The crusaders learned plenty from the moslems through contact in the Middle East. It didn't require the presence of million of unassimilating Saracens in England and France to spur growth.


Multiculturalism - and multitheism - provides us with the opportunity to enlarge our frame of reference and, by so doing, improve ourselves.


The problem is so many aspects of so many cultures are not desirable. Would you argue for Wahhabi theocracy in the UK simply because it's foreign? Not all cultures are equal. Since you seem to think they are perhaps you should spend some time living in a country like Angola, or Cambodia, or yes, Zimbabwe.


Of course, that is to ignore the physical benefits of imigration and cultural diversity, in fields as diverse as architecture, food, music, literature, and many more


Can you please give specific examples of the benefits you've gotten from the unassimilating masses of immigrants from third world, hopefully something that makes a person say, "Gee whiz, we were living in squalor before that came along?"


and the most important argument in favour of cultural, social and ethnic diversity: anything which pisses off ignorant right-wingers has to be a good idea.


Real logical there. Maybe if you're actually trying to sound intelligent (there's no hope of you actually being that) you should ditch that argument.


And what is the free movement of people if not a natural mechanism? It is the same mechanism which, in ancient antiquity, populated the globe. Surely preventing this movement of people would be the artificial intervention you seem so worried about?


Ancient antiquity...as opposed to modern antiquity.

The natural movement consisted of the spread of humans into uninhabited lands. When they came into contact with established populations, they came into conflict. There's nothing unnatural about that.


No, the people who commit the crimes and perpetuate hate are the root of the problem. "Uncontrolled immigration" is a simple target for those simple-minded souls who have trouble understanding the complexity of the real world.


Hate and violence are both problems themselves and symptoms. However history has proven time and time again that multicultural societies do not last and are never conflict (violence) free. Culture is the driving force behind humanity, trying to extinguish a culture with bullets or thought control is a true crime


My marxist/maoist what? Again with the accusations of communism! Do you actually understand what communism is Eastern_Diamondback?


I'm glad it riles you up. It's what I intended. Nah, you're not a authentic communist. Just a semi-nihilist.


the reason "academia" supports my position rather than yours is that we are correct. It has long been the last resort of the outwitted ignoramous to protest that the evidence is controlled by their ideaological opponents.


There is no "reason" why academia supports it, as no level of logic and reasoning was used to come to such conclusions. It's all based on faith. It seems good, so you just believe it. It makes you feel better about yourself. It's purely psychological. You've presented no evidence to support anything you've said


And I won't even deign to comment on the breathtaking arrogance and ignorance of the "oppressive as Islam" statement.


Wow. It's now arrogant and ignorant to dismiss violent and illogical rantings of an murderous ideologue man who professes to have had visions from a non-existent supernatural being on how the world is to be run? All religions are equally false, but not all are equally destructive.



On the contrary, I'm very well aware of the threat which faces me and my country - the threat, Eastern_Diamondback, of fascist right-wingers like you.


If right wing fascist means being able to formulate policy based on what actually happen in the world rather than what someone thinks seems nice for the world, then I proudly wear that label. It's like being accused of racism by Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.



posted on Jul, 17 2004 @ 09:18 AM
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I now see these tit-for-tat exchanges are simply satisfying your pitiable need for attention, Eastern_Diamondback.

You have tainted this thread with your bile, ignorance, lies and prejuidice for more than long enough. Unfortunately, I have learned, through long experience, that there is nothing you can do to educate those who refuse to learn.

I'm only grateful that my country - and yours too, come to that - has long since rejected the small-minded childish selfishness of your suggested politics. So by all means, continue banging your drum of ignorance, continue trying to rally the stupid to your misguided cause. Multiculturalism has been, is and will be a fundamental part of human development - a development, I hasten to add, which has already left your type of reactionary nonsense obsolete.

You fear the immigrant because you fear what you do not understand. To see society or a national identity as a static thing is to ignore the beautiful and inspiring evolution of these abstracts as they adapt to new challenges and possibilities.

And if we try and fight those tides of change, we will be swept aside.

So fear the future. Fear those who are different. Fear global government and those who are smarter, stronger and more powerful than you. Fear the black, the asian, the arab, the hispanic. Fear the foreigner as you fear your neighbour. Fear everyone. Fear everything. We'll be busy crafting our multicultural utopia and making the world better for everyone, freed from the restrictions of right-wing cowardice and selfishness.

And when you're ready, I hope you put aside your fear, and join the human race.



posted on Jul, 17 2004 @ 09:24 AM
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Well its better that you choose not to respond in kind, for all you could do was recite the talking points of your religion, provide no facts, and continue ad hominem tactics rather than debating facts. You are pitiable indeed, and are stunningly unknowledgeable concerning reality. Get a straightjacket.



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