Overthrowing A Government, When is Revolution Appropriate?

I am hearing and expect to hear more chatter about the voting process and how that would most likely be the tipping point towards a violent revolution.

Now then,
If there were a way to let the people vote thus giving them the feeling that their Constitution/Goverment are in check
but,
Have the "elections" rigged so that the person winning the election is the same no matter what....
Would you ever know it???

Basically, is it conceivably possible to rigg an election and what makes you think you would know that it was rigged?

If you want to talk about revolution I will only state some of American History to make my point.. Since after all I am American.

I think we should have revolted in 1913 when they passed the federal reserve act.
I think we should have revolted when they killed Kennedy because the suspicion surrounding that.
I think we should have revolted when we went to war in Vietnam, because apparently we should have never been there in the 1st place.
I think we should have revolted after 9/11 because science happened to be on vacation that day.
I think we should have revolted when we went to war with Afghanistan because there was never any proof Bin Laden was behind the attacks of 9/11.
I think we should have revolted after the patriot act was signed into office the last 2 times.. For the simple fact is stripped the constitution.

There are a crap load more reasons why we should have revolted but cool thing is though.. We have american idol, reality tv and football and beer so meh who needs to revolt.. we can all just sit around looking at the tv and get fat all day and not care who is being screwed where. It makes our for fathers proud we are such apathetic idiots.

::EDIT::

Originally posted by Screwed
I am hearing and expect to hear more chatter about the voting process and how that would most likely be the tipping point towards a violent revolution.

This should have been evident in the 08 elections with Ron Paul.. And dont give me that crap he was an underdog.. statistically speaking he should have been a for runner for the republican side.. All the polls and so on proved he was on top of everyone doing that presidental process thing..

And the topper was when Fox asked him if he was electable.. Wtf is up with that..

Originally posted by ThichHeaded
We have american idol, reality tv and football and beer so meh who needs to revolt.. we can all just sit around looking at the tv and get fat all day and not care who is being screwed where. It makes our for fathers proud we are such apathetic idiots.

Not apathetic, just apathetic to your cause. Take away what the majority loves and give you what you want, then the masses will be calling you apathetic to their cause.

Just sayin'



P.S., most American's are not lazy; rather, they are content.

If you think most Americans are content, you must live in the country club.

Just sayin'. I don't see what you see.

I see mostly angry selfish people who are out for their own gains not caring who they have to take it from.

I drive down the road and see road rage all the time. Road rage is a perfect example of how "America" really feels.

Content people do not rage over silly traffic.

What you really mean is "most people are so busy trying to make ends meet they don't have time, energy, or will to do anything about it or too ignorant to have any clue how to make a difference". That's more accurate and reasonable of a explanation IMHO.

They have been under emergency rule for all but 18 months since it was declared a republic.

So, I'm not exactly effected their government...

But I correlate it to black rights in the south. Under slavery, there were few rebellions and none lasting. When the system was abolished, the white slave owners started restricting voting with Jim Crowe laws. This caused disenfranchisement and an eventual revolutionary end to the pretend rights.

Originally posted by mayabong
reply to post by GrisGris

 

The Egyptians have been voting for 30 years. Voting does have its flaws and can be totally rigged. I think thats why democracy is pushed around the world.

There are no Non-Violent revolutuions. The state will always resort to violence even if the people are totally peaceful.

Look what happened in Egypt. The Government actually payed thugs to attack the protestors.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
If you think most Americans are content, you must live in the country club.

Why aren't they out in masses protesting then? I mean, if life is so bad here in the US and we are so oppressed, where is the massive outrage?

I don't see what you are seeing.

What you really mean is "most people are so busy trying to make ends meet they don't have time, energy, or will to do anything about it or too ignorant to have any clue how to make a difference". That's more accurate and reasonable of a explanation IMHO.

Really? Were the Egyptians too busy making ends meet to get out and endlessly protest until they get what they want? No. They went about their daily lives for decades and finally their society reached a tipping point. In comparison to the desire to reform their government, they could care less about "making ends meet", making time for change or finding the energy to do it. They got out and did it.

Until this happens in the US, then the term "content" seems to fit much better than "apathetic idiots", or any other term used by those that are upset that everyone else isn't upset.

P.S., Road rage is not a indicative of people's distaste for government; it's more indicative of a fast-paced, demanding society. Even if it were, not that many folks road rage, but the one's who do it stand out like a sore thumb....much like those that want a US revolution stand out.

reply to post by Aggie Man


To my cause? What are you talking about my cause.. The things I listed are actual historic facts.. I don't know where to you get my cause from..

This is what someone once said.

Originally stated by: Thomas Jefferson
"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

So no, not my cause.. We don't revolt because most Americans are lazy and don't want to get off their asses to make a change for the better, although we all know its screwed up. We rather whine and let others fix the problem for us than making the effort to fix the issues ourselves.. Revolt either violent or non violent.. either way it don't matter..

I don't know anyone who is content, everyone i know is worried when they are going to lose their jobs and their houses and when will they not be able to feed their families... Ya i am sure content is the wrong word... more like pissed off..

reply to post by GrisGris


18 months of emergency rule in egypt? no its been since 1981.

EDIT:

Oh you're saying the only time it hasn't been under emergency rule was for 18 months. ok

A revolution is only truly appropriate when humanity has evolved past the need to continually replace one government with another. All government is tyranny; be it a democracy, a republic, or a totalitarian dictatorship--it is all monopolization of force.

If you're just going to replace one form of tyranny with another, then any revolution is simply some sort of sadistic social masturbation.

Originally posted by ThichHeaded
I don't know anyone who is content, everyone i know is worried when they are going to lose their jobs and their houses and when will they not be able to feed their families... Ya i am sure content is the wrong word... more like pissed off..

I'm not talking about content with job market and the necessities of life, of course everyone worries about that. What I am doing is sticking to the topic of the OP, which is: Overthrowing A Government, When is Revolution Appropriate?

I am stating that the citizens of the US are content with the system of government we have in place. Most of us still have faith in the process. If they were not content with the system we have, then they would protest in masses, as seen in Egypt.

Originally posted by NthOther
All government is tyranny; be it a democracy, a republic, or a totalitarian dictatorship--it is all monopolization of force.

No a republic is bad when people forget what rule they are under, considering the US is supposed to be a republic but 90% of the population honestly believes we are democracy.. It kinda dont work then..

Besides we have never honestly given republic a shot because greedy people like to take things that they dont work for.

Originally posted by Aggie Man
I am stating that the citizens of the US are content with the system of government we have in place. Most of us still have faith in the process. If they were not content with the system we have, then they would protest in masses, as seen in Egypt.

Again you are wrong.. Last I heard around 89% of the a poll that was taken people were not to satisfied with how the government in the US was running..
Where do you see people in the US being content, I need to see where your looking because really I dont.. I am sure soon will be the straw that will break the camels back.. when that day happens I will tell you " I TOLD YOU SO!!". All it takes is that 1 thing to stir the hornets nest.

When is revolution appropriate is the question?

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

reply to post by Aggie Man


I gree with you to a point.
However, there are those amoungst us who will say that revolution is treasonous and
in some sort of Stockholm Syndromesque kinda way, they will defend their oppressors/captors till their dying breath.
If there are enough of those people (which clearly there are ) then people who are outspoken about their support for a full on revolution are "called" something by the Oppressive regime and the people who support it in their Stockholm Syndromesque kind of way.


The name is......"Domestic Extremists"
or worse............" Domestic Terrorists".

Stricktly speaking,
Our founding fathers were Terrorists.
Sure they were....To King George and to everyone else who was too afraid of him to speak out.

Originally posted by ThichHeaded
Again you are wrong.. Last I heard around 89% of the a poll that was taken people were not to satisfied with how the government in the US was running..

Am I?

The manner in which the country is run vs. the fundamentals of how the the system is suppose to work are two different things. We can have a good system that is being run poorly. People can be upset at those that are running it poorly and then they can show up at the ballot box and vote for change.

reply to post by Aggie Man


We are led to believe that the majority likes things the way they are. Via the media. Images of protests are not shown on TV. Thats why even though the majority is unhappy, you dont see any outward evidence of it.

You are meant to feel like you are alone in your unhappiness. And any images that might lead you to understand others are acting are kept from you.

reply to post by Aggie Man


I would show you this poll but I cant find it off hand...
I think I read it on ATS or heard it on the radio somewhere.. Considering thats the only 2 places i get my news for the last 6 yrs.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by Aggie Man

 

We are led to believe that the majority likes things the way they are. Via the media. Images of protests are not shown on TV. Thats why even though the majority is unhappy, you dont see any outward evidence of it.

The same can be said for the Egyptians, only they were deceived to a larger degree via state run TV than Americans are by the MS media. What makes them different than us? Are they smarter? Or is it that we are not as bad off in the US as some want us to believe.

I honestly believe that, with the social media today, Americans are very well in touch with how everyone else feels about our government, yet there are no mass protests effectively shutting down the country. No real demand for reform. What is a reality is that, although many Americans desire change, they are not willing to sacrifice and go through the hard times that will surely follow. An example of that is we want lower taxes, yet taxation is the only means to pay our debt, tax breaks do nothing to remedy that massively growing issue. We are content passing that buck off onto the next generation.

Originally posted by Aggie Man

Originally posted by ThichHeaded
Again you are wrong.. Last I heard around 89% of the a poll that was taken people were not to satisfied with how the government in the US was running..

Am I?

The manner in which the country is run vs. the fundamentals of how the the system is suppose to work are two different things. We can have a good system that is being run poorly. People can be upset at those that are running it poorly and then they can show up at the ballot box and vote for change.

What kind of joke is this?

Do you even know how our system works?

The Electoral College decides.

Voting allows us to pretend what it must be like to be on the EC.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

What kind of joke is this?

Do you even know how our system works?

The Electoral College decides.

Voting allows us to pretend what it must be like to be on the EC.

The Electoral College decide Congress? Since when? OR is this your personal quest against the POTUS? Do YOU even know how the system works?

Originally posted by Aggie Man

Originally posted by muzzleflash

What kind of joke is this?

Do you even know how our system works?

The Electoral College decides.

Voting allows us to pretend what it must be like to be on the EC.

The Electoral College decide Congress? Since when? OR is this your personal quest against the POTUS? Do YOU even know how the system works?

edit on 9-2-2011 by Aggie Man because: (no reason given)

Maybe it is because you are an Aggie and I am from TTU, that we rub each other the wrong way.

I was making a joke. And you have to admit, it was quite witty and good.

Point is, the reason people don't revolt is because they don't know how. They see kids in the street throwing rocks and they know deep inside that is not the answer and it will not solve anything.

Did the revolt solve Egypt's problems? No, it has exacerbated them.

If people knew how to really revolt in a peaceful fully effective manner, I have complete faith they would.

No sane person is content being a slave all day just to end up broke at the end of the week.
Crazy deluded people may be content with slavery, but they were deceived unknowingly.