Muslims want children excused from music, mixed phys-ed classes

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
reply to post by eletheia

 

Well, it's a free country, why can't Muslims take their kids out of phys ed calsses? It's no extra burden on the school system or the other students, it really only harms the Muslim children (that is, if you believe that being forced to compete in sports and being brought into the humiliating world of school athletics is a good thing).

This Witness website says that there were 113,603 witnesses in Canada in 2010. Unless my math is off, that's about 0.003% of the population of the country. Not bad for a cult! Wiki sez that just under 2% of Canadians are Muslims. Not so great for a mainstream religion!








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When i asked about % comparison i was actually refering to UK statistics as a few posters

inc. myself were posting from that angle. However the main stance seems to be if you don't

like the rules and laws of a country and are not prepared to adapt to them just don't go.

If you had read through the thread you would have seen a couple of posts saying that to opt

out of classes would need extra personnel to (teach? chaperone? supervise? accompany?)

these dropouts and at this time of austerity and cut backs where is the money to come from???

Another thing in this country there is a growing obesity problem and much talk about the lack

of exercise taken by children at school and out of it so i would think physical education has

a place in the school. It is not only the physical aspect it also teaches sportsmanship team-

building and how to loose gracefully not to many children seem to know that these days.

PS I don't think the UK is alone in the growing obesity stakes..................

reply to post by Romanian





EXCUSE ME

I think you are mixing me up with another poster

reply to post by inforeal


OK - your statement makes no sense so I will try and break this down so that you are not misunderstanding what I am trying to say.

Step by Step
You post this:

posted on 5-2-2011 @ 03:38 PM this post reply to post by Death_Kron

Actually Muslims by SHARIA law are told to obey the laws of the land of a non-Muslim country that they live in. **(emphasis is done by me to highlight the point you make)**

That doesn’t prevent them from trying to keep their children away from what they think are immoral cultural settings for their children and permissive sexuality.
If the Canadian school boards tell them to obey or leave then they will have to make a choice that they live in.

I then replied to that post with this:

posted on 5-2-2011 @ 05:53 PM this post reply to post by inforeal
Sorry but you made a reference to Muslims seeking to adopt the laws of the county they are in - yet here we are in the UK with sharia courts in place.
Whether or not the authorities allow this is irrelevant - if the muslims seek it then according to your post they are going against their own laws? **(again emphasis is mine to highlight the argument you made in your first post)**
Their laws are full of contradictions and other issues..but on that one point I can see how they go a country and then push for sharia law. Make no mistake it is they who are pushing this agenda and why? Because they feel they should be able to settle disputes under their Islamic sharia law that should be heard through either criminal or civil courts in the already existing legal system of whichever country they are in.
Regards

You then retort with this:

posted on 5-2-2011 @ 07:12 PM this post reply to post by facchino
Your analysis lacks logic. If by the very laws of said country that Muslims live in as a minority; they have allowances for their religious law then that is lawful as long as it is done peacefully.

Just to reiterate as best as I can - you state that according to their laws Muslims will seek to abide by the laws of any non muslim country they reside in.
I tried to make you aware of the fact that this is simply NOT the case, as Muslims actively seek to extend their Sharia law network.
The issue with this is that there are already laws in place in the UK to deal with incidents that Muslims now feel they are entitled to settle outside the legal system that everyone else adheres to?
Therefore I ask you the question - according to the statement in bold you made, how do you explain the facts of what is happening in the UK (I know the OP is canada but I can only relate that to my own country)
This strikes me as a hugely divisive action?

In order to not make this a ridiculously massive post - I am going to post directly after this with a point I made elsewhere regarding this very topic - please have a read of that also?

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

It's no extra burden on the school system or the other students

Okay, so where do the muslim kids go during this part of the school day? Who looks after them? How much of the school budget has to be spent making this accommodation?

How do the muslim kids relate to their peers, when the rest of the kids are all singing the latest song they've learned and when they're playing the latest game...or dancing around..or all of the other things that children need to help them to become part of the society and communities to which they belong?

By refusing to let your child participate in the normal school setting in the community in which they live, you are isolating them from that community! How will that ever lead to true integration and mutual understanding?

Simple answer it won't....it will just breed ignorance and misunderstanding..

But, you know what? the ignorance and misunderstanding is not coming from the non-muslim population, it is being perpetrated and expanded within the very seperatist, muslim communities and when all of this simmers away in these expanding communities, who believe that the word of their religion is above all else, then that ignorance and misunderstanding soon turns to pure hate...it is being evidenced more and more in the UK, our Prime minister has even now spoken out about it...it really is time to change, and to the pc apologists, I will once again say, it is not me, or other free thinking individuals who need to change, it is those who would seek to move into a society that embraces freedom and then insists that to enjoy their freedoms, that they must curb ours...

This topic is on here more and more - because it is becoming more and more relevant
People are fed up with seeing, reading about and experiencing instances where (and I speak for the UK here) it seems that Islamic followers are using Sharia Law courts to settle their disputes, whereby they should be using the already established legal system to seek legal recourse for their complaint.

This is a very good article - please read all of it as makes a lot of sense.
Sharia Law in the UK
Further Comments on this:
Sharia now legally binding in the UK
Sharia in UK

Before the usual crowd jump in with cries of racism etc, it's a pathetic statement that does not hold water. Criticism of this Sharia law is not racist, bigoted etc but instead is annoyance with what seems like a worrying trend for this country.
I certainly don't want my children growing up in a country where this barbaric practice is freely in use and enforced. If I wanted to live where Sharia law was practiced - I would move to a country that does so.
I therefore expect that Muslims who were compelled to live under Sharia would seek to relocate themselves to such a country, or is it that they actually enjoy the freedoms this westernised country affords them when it suits.
Please also note I don't care one tiny bit if Muslims, Indians, Jews whatever come and live in the UK.
I do care and resent immensely if they try to enforce their culture, laws etc into taking precedence over that which is already established.

Here are some examples of the bizzare double standards of Muslims - uproar if something goes against Sharia in their country, with her facing 15 days in jail and immediate deportation:
Women in a Sharia law country (Sudan) causes uproar after calling a teddy bear Mohammed (after a boy in the class by the way) and talk of lashings etc. At no point can this women insist on imposing western laws in Sudan.
Mohammed the Teddy Bear in Sudan

Expect to do as they please in a non Sharia country?

Sharia in action
Odd this - last time I checked this should have been dealt with by the Police, as it is classed as assault under the laws of this land? What right exactly do they have to resolve this by themselves - not even take no action - but actively decree a solution based on Sharia law that is directly at odds with how UK law operates.

Yet over here in the UK - Muslim Extremists can do the following and get away virtually scott free, why dont we extend the same idea and deport these scum to any islamic state that will accept them (and given their strong islamic viewpoints would very likely be proud to have them as citizens)

Muslim Extremists Protesting in Luton

Burn our Poppies

London Protest

This whole topic needs bringing out in the open in the UK and resolving once and for all - with no cry of racism, bigotry etc.
Politicans needs to resolve it and repeal anything Sharia in the legal system.

We had some issues with foreign workers last year. the demands were way out of line. They wanted over 400 people to change what they ate and how they acted for 9 people. Our company told them they would have to adapt to the diverse enviorment that our company provided. They had a week to decide their lawyer said no 48 hours later they all were headed home for an number of reasons and the lawyer was in shock sued and lost. End of story. Don't like diversity don't apply they knew from the beginning what they had planned

reply to post by destination now


You are right, children only learn to sing or dance or communicate with each other in music and phys ed classes. They never interact with each other outside of those classes and they never integrate because there is no communication except in these two classes that parents want to keep their kids out of.

This supposed Muslim problem is the same 'problem' that exists in all immigrant communities, everywhere. All immigrant communities want to preserve some continuity with the culture of the past and they want their children to integrate into the new culture, at least insofar as they are able to do anything in the new country. Immigrant parents want their children to be able to survive in an environment that is alien to their family, and they integrate to greater or lesser extents, as their individual conscience permits.

Note that these parents did not request that their children be kept out of math, english, geography, science... Noe also that they did not request that their children be removed from school altogether. Note also that they did not take their kids into private schools and did not choose to homeschool them.

Of course, if we are debating principle here, the principle that all children ought to be integrated as far as possible into the mainstream culture, crushing and destroying any and all individuality that contradicts social norms, then I still disagree. Rich white Christian parents homeschool their kids, or send them to private schools with alternate cirricula compared to public schools. Should these parents be chastised as well? Should they be forced to send their kids to school instead of homeschooling them, so that they can have the same social experience as everyone else? So that they can have the same education in the same subjects as everyone else? Are homeschooled children unable to fit into mainstream society?

Or, more likely, is it the combination of immigrants and nonconformity that alarms? Do immigrants have a duty to conform to the host culture? Do they have a duty to abandon any and all values, norms, habits that they have that contradict the norm in the new country? Do they have an obligation to send their children to be transformed into Good Little Canadians (racists)?

reply to post by The Djin


Even when you are feeding people poison?

reply to post by inforeal


Hey, you'll eat that poison and like it! When you live under my roof, you follow my rules! There are plenty of starving children in Africa that would love to have that poison!

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap




By and large children go to school to get educated and to socialise and intergrate with

their peers. And ethnicity and culture are what should be taught at home.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


Yet, still you fail to answer the most basic part of the question...Who will look after the children during these classes? What will they be doing? How will it be paid for?

And how long will it be if this request is acquiesced, that other changes to parts of the curriculum are being demanded, with the mantra that, well, you approved these wishes on religious grounds, but now it is being refused? And as such, the demands are met again....and again...and again...

Until your daughter is told not to bother going to school because there is nothing for her to learn there and she has no place...

Err...No Thanks...

reply to post by facchino


With all due respect you still aren’t making sense.

IF THEY REQUEST ACCOMODATION FOR THEIR BELIEFS AND THE POWERS THAT BE ACCEPT IT THEN FINE. BUT IF THOSE POWERS SAY “NO”
THEN THEY ARE OBLIGATED TO ACCEPT THE “NO” AND NOT BREAK THE LAWS OF THAT LAND.

Merely because they seek an accommodation for their religious law is not breaking their law unless they attempt to do it against the wishes of the law of that land.

If they go about setting up Sharia courts on their own then the authorities in the UK should stop them unless the UK authorities have given them the right to do that.
Which I personally don’t think is a good thing to do.

Sorry Canada, but you are like the US. There are people from every religion in your society. Just as I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and was not expected to celebrate in Christmas pageants or say the Pledge of Allegiance (no false idols...), I don't see why religious accomodations are that big of an issue.

I think that music is not a bad subject to take, especially since here in the US, along with art, music is pretty much inaccessible to many students especially in poorer districts with budget cuts.

reply to post by destination now


Last time I checked, the whole school does not do phys ed and music at the same time. Put them in French class during music. Put them in Japanese Flower Arrangement class (hahaha) during Phys Ed...or perhaps Home Ec would be more reasonable.

It would be a major cost burden and a total logistic nightmare if all students did the same thing at the same time.

Originally posted by Sphota
reply to post by destination now

 

Last time I checked, the whole school does not do phys ed and music at the same time. Put them in French class during music. Put them in Japanese Flower Arrangement class (hahaha) during Phys Ed...or perhaps Home Ec would be more reasonable.

It would be a major cost burden and a total logistic nightmare if all students did the same thing at the same time.

Okay, so assume you don't have kids in the education system currently...it just doesn't work like that! Class sizes are subject to maximums, in primary schools (junior etc) there is no french or japanese flower arranging... and in all schools, all of the other classes are working to a curriculum and have tests to complete, the disruption to other pupils is unfair and it is unfair to teachers to have to accommodate pupils who should not be in their classes at that time. It is called timetabling and is an essential part of the school system.

But hey, so what, you're a muslim, you don't want to do that class, nevermind we'll just reorganise the lot...But hey I'm a Canadian/British/Other student....I don't want to do music...Tough....

Sorry to be disrespectful, but you need to take a trip to the real world

reply to post by inforeal

The same due respect returned to you - however if you cannot understand the post as I have written it then there is nothing else I can possibly say to make it any clearer to you?

Regards

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


The point is that parents do not have the absolute authority over their children, we no longer live in 19th century - they cant infringe upon their rights as defined in the law of the land. If by law the children have the right to receive basic education according to the curriculum, by preventing free exercise of those rights parents would be infringing upon their rights as defined in the law of the land, and thus commiting child abuse. Just like denying healthcare or nutrition for them is child abuse.

That is all well and good, but it is up to them to provide ample evidence as to why their children should be excused. If it is because of religious grounds, then they have to prove that there are compelling and relatively clear passages within the Qur'an for this. They would also need to be able to explain (if this is the case) why there are other Muslim children whose families are fine with them participating in these things if it does, indeed, violate Islamic principles.

reply to post by gnosticquasar


Absolutely... Star for your observation! And of course, they could also suggest alternatives to what their children should do at these times, perhaps the mothers could volunteer to come into the school, not only to watch their own children who are not in the prescribed lessons, but for the sake of sports, a child who has an injury or disability and cannot take part, the volunteer mums could provide a stop gap...actually do something constructive, like extra homework help for the other curriculum subjects, in a totally impartial and secular way, so as not to make the non-muslim kids feel uncomfortable!

yeah right...

Only last year I had the head teacher phone me personally to inform me that I should NOT be sending my daughter to school if she was not capable of participating in ALL of the days activities.

I had spoken to the P.E teacher first thing and said that she had hurt her leg walking to school and whilst she was 'ok' we suspected a twisted ankle and I would prefer her not to take part in the P.E that was their first lesson. She is in primary school in the UK.

The head teacher informed me that if she was not able to take part that she should not be in school because they simply don't have the facilities to supervise her if she is not taking part.

It then came to light that two muslim children have recently started at the school and they are taken out of morning assembly, change for P.E seperatly from the other children and eat their food away from the other children (there was also a time when they were eating nothing at all). The school made provisions for them yet my daughter was being sent home!!

Needless to say, my daughter never left the school and I arrived within 10 minutes to see the head teacher with my local MP - afterall, I needed to be sure that my daughter was being looked after!

It's an absolute disgrace that this is happening in schools around the UK/world. Am I racist, NO WAY, I just believe that when in Rome ..........