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ATS Members Are Political Cowards?

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posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 08:27 AM
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reply to post by xavi1000
 

There is a lot of judgement being made on what people are doing outside of ATS and the Internet of which there is no evidence. How do you know that people you are criticising are not actively campaigning for what they believe in?

Yes there may well be any number of people who choose to participate solely in the ongoing discussion on ATS as their means of 'fighting back'. There is no need to criticise people for this as it is just childish. How about encouraging people to become more active instead?

I find being positive with people gets better results than being negative. I originally thought that the OP was going to be negative and bash ATS members but after reading it I found it was positive in that it was trying to address the issue rather than just stereotype people.




posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 08:57 AM
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reply to post by sheepslayer247
 


Hey sheepslayer - obviously people have different views as to what is, or is not, important. It was the fear that was expressed that really cause me concern. Fear of being on a database - why? Courtesy of the modern era we're all on countless anyway. Google spies on us and targets adverts directly at us. All of our net data is stored for 3 years. Anyone in authority, who wants to, can access anything about us they want already.

Fear of being 'noticed' because you disagree with TPTB is very concerning - that will disable us.

I don't believe in violent protest - I think if there is one way to lay into the political policies of bad intention (not all of them are) violence is a sure fire way to do that.

On another thread re the lad who was pulled by his wheelchair - posters are advocating out and out violence. That is a hugely naive response. I'm in my 40's and I see it as our generation's responsibility to show the younger generation how to be effective by alternative means. (Not that I'm underestimating them).

The latest demos in Greece have erupted in violence - again. The police have used tear gas this time - not bullets.
Athens Demos - Not for the faint hearted
edit on 15-12-2010 by christina-66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 09:13 AM
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reply to post by christina-66
 

I completely agree in reference to violence. I am not as old as you, and many my age are quick to resolve their disagreements with violence. I think we can find another way.

That being said, what do you think an online petition will accomplish? It is a step towards constructive protest, but it is very few and far between that something like this accomplishes anything.



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 09:29 AM
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reply to post by sheepslayer247
 

I would say it is mainly about raising awareness and getting people to think about the issue.

It is a first step. Think of it like a pyramid scheme (albeit not as effective):

1) A person starts an online campaign and contacts all their friends and family and lobbies them to join.
2) Some will ignore it, some will join it and some will join it and then lobby their friends and family.
3) If each person that lobbies convinces two more people to lobby on behalf of the campaign then awareness of the isssue will grow exponentially.

Once you have a community of people in support and lobbying for an idea then you can take more direct action such as a protest, a strike, mass letters to MPs, publicity stunts for press coverage etc.

I think the Ghurka's rights campaign involving Joanna Lumley is a pretty good example of this. She did not initiate the campaign but used her celebrity status to gain awareness for it.



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 09:38 AM
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reply to post by shakennotstirred
 

I can see how that can be effective, but let's be honest here. Do you think that we could muster enough support for this considering the massive amounts of established media and powerful people against Wikileaks? We are up against a monster of sorts. It wold be very hard to overcome that obstacle. Not impossible though.



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 09:44 AM
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I'm surprised the thread didn't get taken down as it's directly against the T&C's to post that kind of thing.


15e.) Recruitment/Solicitation: i) You will not use your membership in the Websites for any type of recruitment to any causes whatsoever. You will not Post, use the chat feature, use videos, or use the private message system to disseminate advertisements, chain letters, petitions, pyramid schemes, or any kind of solicitation for political action, social action, letter campaigns, or related online and/or offline coordinated actions of any kind.


I'm not sure why it is, but it is
edit on 15-12-2010 by davespanners because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by shakennotstirred
 

I can see how that can be effective, but let's be honest here. Do you think that we could muster enough support for this considering the massive amounts of established media and powerful people against Wikileaks? We are up against a monster of sorts. It wold be very hard to overcome that obstacle. Not impossible though.


I think in a way, the fact that the media have been exposed as a bunch of part time yes men , actually helps swing the balance. It males people more cynical...the more cynical you become (sad to say) the closer to the truth you are getting. It raises awareness among those who would never have bothered before as pointed out by shakennotstirred Peoples' lives are now being affected directly by the shenanigans of TPTB and we've all watched the bankers waltz off scot free while we're being asked to pay the price. That is a fundamental wrong.



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by davespanners
I'm surprised the thread didn't get taken down as it's directly against the T&C's to post that kind of thing.


15e.) Recruitment/Solicitation: i) You will not use your membership in the Websites for any type of recruitment to any causes whatsoever. You will not Post, use the chat feature, use videos, or use the private message system to disseminate advertisements, chain letters, petitions, pyramid schemes, or any kind of solicitation for political action, social action, letter campaigns, or related online and/or offline coordinated actions of any kind.


I'm not sure why it is, but it is
edit on 15-12-2010 by davespanners because: (no reason given)


Please please explain to me how this thread is breaking ATS rules? To what cause am I attempting to recruit people ? What ads I'm I posting? This thread is about people who 'walk the walk' but when asked to even the simplest of things in support of that talk they will not 'walk the walk'.

It is about peoples' irrational fear of being heard or of being seen....not a particular cause.



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by DevilJin
reply to post by wcitizen
 


If Wikileaks were to stop being the center of attention - would the crowd that so upheld the principle Wikileaks personified - free speech - still continue what Wikileaks started? NO!!!! Maybe small websites here and there but the whole of the population will find something new to believe in. THAT is my point - I think we are being led to believe in Wikileaks. News sources would move on to something else. No one would scrutinize the media for its possible political bias, censoring, or neglect of stories the world NEEDS to hear. It is not "easier to sit on the fence" because all I ask is for facts. For YOU, it is easier to run with Wikileaks as is it is easier for people to deny Wikileaks as genuine. You chose one side and ran with it and your opposition has done the same. There is no middle ground which is EXACTLY how people are divided in many debates. No one is going on facts. They are going on belief, propaganda, opinions, and what's trendy.

Today Wikileaks, tomorrow Israel is ready to strike Iran's nuclear facilities.


No, you are wrong about my take on wikileaks...but thanks for trying to read my mind. I don't know whether WL is legit. I know many people believe they aren't. I don't know, because I've seen no hard evidence that has been provided either way. I have seen theories and opinions only. What I have seen without any doubt is a ferocious attack on free journalism. That is a FACT. I've seen what I consider to be appalling and illegal calls for Assange to be murdered without any due process, by people who are in positions of authority. I believe that is criminal, but acceptable by TPTB. These people would have someone murdered to prevent free journalism. That is where my main focus is on this issue, and the fight back in favor of free journalism is something I am willing to fully support.

You say you want facts, and I'm wondering where you expect to get those facts? The MSM? The cables released by WL do present facts, for example.

There is a saying that knowledge is power - which I belive to be wrong, because knowledge is only power if it is acted upon.



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 12:33 PM
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reply to post by christina-66
 


Just signed it and I couldn't care less who knows. Whatever happened to "transparency" and "openness?" I guess that means, only when your exposing somebody else. The only thing I have to say to those being exposed is; "If you can't take the heat, get out of kitchen."



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by shakennotstirred
reply to post by wcitizen
 

I hadn't thought about it that way before, but it makes sense.

I for one am raising the volume of my dissatisfaction with the way things are going and conspiracy theories have definitely played a part in that.

However I understand the belief that we as individuals are small and TPTB are big and powerful but in reality that is an illusion. It takes one person to have an idea and if that idea is allowed to grow in the minds of other people and spread then it can change the world. I am not sure I expressed my sentiment brilliantly so I'll quote from Inception



What is the most resilient parasite? Bacteria? A virus? An intestinal worm? An idea. Resilient... highly contagious. Once an idea has taken hold of the brain it's almost impossible to eradicate. An idea that is fully formed - fully understood - that sticks; right in there somewhere.


I love your comparison between idea and a bacteria/virus - we all know how contagious a virus can be (especially swine flu, lol). I hadn't thought of this before, but actually TPTB have had quite a nice period of very little investigative journalism taking place for at least a decade, I would say. They managed to get control of the MSM nicely. However, WL has spawned a new idea - the idea of leaking and exposing on the internet.....and this idea is threatening to the total information control which TPTB want and need to survive. They want to squash the idea - but of course they can't because it has already emerged and is replicating itself all over the world.

I doubt they could even squash the internet - given the effect it would have on the whole world. And one more thing which has emerged from the WL debacle is that more people are focusing on creating alternatives for the internet which would bypass government control. Interesting!



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 12:48 PM
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I love the quote about the idea being a bacteria/virus too.....but I first heard it just last night....in a movie my son had me sit down and watch. 'Inception' Talk about synchronicity. unbelievable!



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 06:20 PM
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reply to post by christina-66
 


I can feel the frustration OP. I am not sure if courage versus cowardice is the lynch pin here. Perhaps consider a different idea. The problem is the enemy is fighting asymmetrically. The reigns of control have been cut from those the Constitution put them with. Petitions, demonstrations, contacting politicians, voting, etc have all been successfully countered. All those means are based on the false premise TPTB are concerned about the public's opinion. No matter how hard we work those actions, there will be no direction change.

So how do we right our current course? We have to determine what muscles the wheel now-a-days and attack there. Look at the leverage of BP, AIPAC, or the banking industry. They get it done in quick order. You and I may never be able to muster the financial where-with-all to out leverage them but we may not have to. We do however, have to understand how that money gets in and produces action. Once we know that, then that is the infrastructure one seeks to dissect, analyze, and target. This is not violent or advocates something unlawful. If you shoot the Congressman or the banker, there will only be another to fill the lucrative void.

I wish I was an expert and it was easy. I have ideas like everybody but that is for another thread.



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 08:23 PM
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Hmm I thought petitions on ATS were against the T&C.......



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by christina-66

Originally posted by davespanners
I'm surprised the thread didn't get taken down as it's directly against the T&C's to post that kind of thing.


15e.) Recruitment/Solicitation: i) You will not use your membership in the Websites for any type of recruitment to any causes whatsoever. You will not Post, use the chat feature, use videos, or use the private message system to disseminate advertisements, chain letters, petitions, pyramid schemes, or any kind of solicitation for political action, social action, letter campaigns, or related online and/or offline coordinated actions of any kind.


I'm not sure why it is, but it is
edit on 15-12-2010 by davespanners because: (no reason given)


Please please explain to me how this thread is breaking ATS rules? To what cause am I attempting to recruit people ? What ads I'm I posting? This thread is about people who 'walk the walk' but when asked to even the simplest of things in support of that talk they will not 'walk the walk'.

It is about peoples' irrational fear of being heard or of being seen....not a particular cause.


You said you posted a thread asking people to sign a petition.

I pointed out that asking people to sign a petition on ATS is against the T&C's

I fail to see whats hard to understand about that



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 04:56 AM
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Yes and ATS did take that thread down and gave me their reasons for doing so. (Although I do think their reasoning is a little paranoid - but hey). Your post was about this thread which is actually about a fear to act in even small ways to help alter things that concern you (plural).- not a petirion.



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 05:06 AM
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Originally posted by ABNARTY
reply to post by christina-66
 


I can feel the frustration OP. I am not sure if courage versus cowardice is the lynch pin here. Perhaps consider a different idea. The problem is the enemy is fighting asymmetrically. The reigns of control have been cut from those the Constitution put them with. Petitions, demonstrations, contacting politicians, voting, etc have all been successfully countered. All those means are based on the false premise TPTB are concerned about the public's opinion. No matter how hard we work those actions, there will be no direction change.

So how do we right our current course? We have to determine what muscles the wheel now-a-days and attack there. Look at the leverage of BP, AIPAC, or the banking industry. They get it done in quick order. You and I may never be able to muster the financial where-with-all to out leverage them but we may not have to. We do however, have to understand how that money gets in and produces action. Once we know that, then that is the infrastructure one seeks to dissect, analyze, and target. This is not violent or advocates something unlawful. If you shoot the Congressman or the banker, there will only be another to fill the lucrative void.

I wish I was an expert and it was easy. I have ideas like everybody but that is for another thread.


I had to take your whole quote because you make so many good points.

When involved with the anti-Iraq movement it was amazing how many people were involved who worked in government jobs (not hard in the UK a quarter of the working pop. is employed in the public sector). They undertook to do their jobs - badly.

A French footballer recently advocated removing all cash from the banks as a protest - nice idea - but it will not work because the banks simply freeze all accounts.

A good example of effective protest that actually did achieve results (tho' not much media attention) was a campaign to halt fluoridisation of the water in the UK. The campaigners? They were small group of women in their 60's. Their method? lol...they used their experience of the democratic processes in this country...and actually used them. Their local authorities were approached - mp's were written to and visited. People don’t have the patience to see things through – these women did – and it worked.

Another good example is the UK police force itself. Demonstrations anywhere near parliament were outlawed. The police - for the first time I can remember - marched in protest toward the Houses of Parliament - when they got there they queued to see their mp's - no shouting, no violence - just a very very long queue. It was genius. We should follow their lead.



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by christina-66
 


Exactly. Not a bad idea. I am not an expert on politics in the UK, but the idea is the same in the US. All the leverage politicians and corporations exert is dependent on public acceptance of it. A little well placed, unaccommodating, civil behavior grinds that machine to a halt.

This can be easy for most people to accomplish. Imagine if folks turned off the MSM news outlets and actually read some source material on the internet? An hour in front of the TV or an hour in front of the computer. It would circumvent some much of the problem in one fell swoop.



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 06:44 PM
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It never seems to have occurred to the OP that though probably a minority, but still a significant number of people completely disagree with the leftist political orientation promulgated here. In other wordfs, I am not going to walk YOUR walk EVER, because I think it is the wrong walk. I don't want the revolution you want. I don't want the kind of socienty you envision. Not only are my goals different than yours, they are likely the polar opposite. I don't believe the NWO/Illuminati exist. I don't believe that tptb are inherently evil. I don't think the US government should disclose anything, and I don't believe WikiLeaks is a good thing. I think water cannons and tasers are really way too benign an answer to riots.

The thing is, people here at ATS often assume theoir worldview is shared by the majority. But ATS is but a micrcosm of the populace, most of whom think the views expressed by many people on ATS are completely nuts, from 9/11 conspiracies to Illuminati feeding our souls to the reptilian gods. There are people here who still actually believe Billy Meier is not a hoax. There are people here who believe the Moon has three trillion inhabitants. Politically there are people here who turn dictators and criminals into heroes and democracies into villains.

So it's not really a matter of not walking your walk; it's a matter of actively opposing everything you stand for. Just wanted to clear that up.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 05:07 AM
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reply to post by schuyler
 



My point is not a political one...it is neither leftist nor rightist. The concerns that induced me to post this thread was peoples' fear of being on a govt. database. Fear of repercussions for standing up for what they belive in (no matter what side of the political spectrum). We are supposed to live in a society with freedom of expression/speech - and people feel inhibited to even have freedom of thought? Isn't that a tad Orwellian? That is what this thread seeks to address and/or investigate.

If people have got to the point where they fear that voicing their opinion (even a mainstream opinion) will lead to repercussions in their daily lives surely some fundamental questions have to be asked?



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