Wikileaks - US Government Helped Spain By Selling Out US Treasure Hunters

Sorry people of USA, but your government not only stuffs you over, but helps foreign governments stuff you over as well. Giving away confidential documents filed with US Customs by US citizens.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

TAMPA — Sunken treasure, WikiLeaks documents and a priceless French painting.

Suddenly, a great deal of international drama has touched down in Tampa and reads like a diplomatic thriller — with half a billion dollars in gold at stake.

For years, Tampa's Odyssey Marine treasure hunting company has been fighting with the Spanish government over a 17 tons of gold and silver coins that Odyssey discovered and brought up off the Atlantic Ocean floor.

Now, it turns out, Spain has been getting secret help since 2007 from an unlikely source: The U.S. government.

Among the thousands of documents released by WikiLeaks are several U.S. diplomatic cables describing how U.S. ambassadors were helping Spain in their cause — partly to help broker a deal to bring a famous painting in Spain to a U.S. citizen who claimed it was looted by the Nazis in World War II.

Specifically the U.S. offered to provide confidential customs documents prepared by Odyssey that Spain in turn planned to use in court to fight the company.

Odyssey officials are not pleased.

"The cables seem to indicate that someone in the U.S. State Department has literally offered to sacrifice Odyssey and its thousands of shareholders along with the many jobs created by the company in exchange for the return of one painting to one U.S. Citizen," the company said in a statement to the Tribune. "It is hard to believe that this really happened. It sounds like something out of a Hollywood script."

London's Guardian newspaper first reported the cables, as part of its ongoing digestion of thousands of documents released by WikiLeaks. The U.S. government has condemned the release and called for prosecution of WikiLeaks founders.

The Spanish were cool to the idea of returning the painting, the cables show, but were grateful after Department of Homeland Security staff in the U.S. embassy in Madrid handed the Spanish customs import documents that Odyssey had filed when bringing the treasure to Tampa.

"The information was confidential," the U.S. cable stated, "and to be used only for law enforcement purposes." The Spanish replied that they were "interested in obtaining the Odyssey customs information to provide to lawyers representing the [Government of Spain] in the Tampa Admiralty Court."

Odyssey found the treasure in May 2007 and has since argued that the treasure was on board a Spanish commercial vessel. The ship sank in international waters, possibly in 1804 while carrying commercial goods from Peru, Odyssey says, and was thus fair game for any salvage company that found it. Odyssey is now locked in a protracted legal battle with Spain, which claims the treasure was on a military mission at the time, and thus Spanish property forever.

A diplomatic cable a year later describes how the U.S. Ambassador to Spain, Eduardo Aguirre, suggested a deal.

He met with Spanish Minister of Culture Cesar Antonio Molina on June 30, 2008, who told the U.S. Ambassador that they should meet over the issue of a claim by an American citizen, Claude Cassirer, to recover a painting by Camille Pissarro. Cassirer claims the Nazis in 1939 forced his grandmother to sell them the painting and it passed through several hands before ending up in a Spanish museum.

"The [U.S.] ambassador noted also that while the Odyssey and Cassirer claim were on separate legal tracks," the cable states, "it was in both governments' interest to avail themselves of whatever margin for manouevre they had, consistent with their legal obligations, to resolve both matters in a way that favoured the bilateral relationship."

The Spanish official replied, the cable says, that there were many steps required before any movement on the painting, but that he had recently flown to Washington, in part, to meet with lawyers that Spain retained in the Odyssey case. He expressed "indignation" after a CNN interview where Odyssey CEO Greg Stemm aimed to keep the treasure and return only items of archeological value.

The treasure now sits in a vault warehouse in an undisclosed location. The legal case already went through federal court in Tampa, and now rests in the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta. However the case is decided, observers expect it to be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court.

reply to post by acrux


They aren't stuffing me over, just a bunch of idiots who would invest in something silly like sunken treasure when they know that the countries that it originally lost it usually fight to get it recovered. Even if it was 200 years, I don't think we would like it either if an American ship from that time was recovered by a foreign country, we would fight to get it and everything on there recovered for the historical value.

reply to post by Unilluminist
So you think its ok for the government to sell out its people. Sad, very sad.

reply to post by acrux


The U.S. government has to play both sides. The U.S. government does all it can to take advantage of the economic resources of smaller, weaker 3rd world countries yet 17 tons and gold and silver the U.S. says belong to Spain. Apparently, U.S. government's corruption has its limitations.

This so goes against America's "Finders keepers," motto.

It's despicable, It time for citizens to throw out this government and build a new one. I hope the ones responsible are fired and placed in jail. The gov should protect it's people. I also hope the US gov has to pay this treasure company for any losses uncured.

Originally posted by Unilluminist
reply to post by acrux

 

They aren't stuffing me over, just a bunch of idiots who would invest in something silly like sunken treasure when they know that the countries that it originally lost it usually fight to get it recovered. Even if it was 200 years, I don't think we would like it either if an American ship from that time was recovered by a foreign country, we would fight to get it and everything on there recovered for the historical value.

It seems that you, if American, are the product of the same system that was created to turn all Americans into dumb cows: fat, stupid, and chewing their cud.

No, if our sunken ships are found (and not military in origin), then we have no claim to them. The government should have little to say/do regarding a sunken treasure of US origin that is civilian in origin.

But that isn't even the story here. You completely missed the important part: our government decided to collude with a foreign government against a US citizen to be able to lawfully keep the fruits of his labor.

America is based on the very notion that a man has a right to the fruits of his labor. This is key to "liberty". For the US government to so blatantly undermine this principle is as treasonous as it gets.

No wonder they are decrying the Wikileaks. The real traitors wear suits and work in DC.

It doesn't appear that Odyssey is overly angry about this...:

"The cables seem to indicate that someone in the U.S. State Department has literally offered to sacrifice Odyssey and its thousands of shareholders along with the many jobs created by the company in exchange for the return of one painting to one U.S. Citizen," the company said in a statement to the Tribune. "It is hard to believe that this really happened. It sounds like something out of a Hollywood script."

That's one of the most lame duck responses I've ever heard. I bet the government and Odyssey privately brokered a deal where somewhere along the line Spain would screw the pooch in thier case if those documents were used, while meanwhile Spain releases the painting thinking they had been treated fairly.

To bad WL just threw that plan down the toilet. Hopefully the painting was released before WL released lol !

reply to post by acrux


No I don't think it is the responsibility of the government to pander to every riddicoulous venture. Investors need to take that into acccount beforehand, it is part of the risk.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


WAAA! WAAA! somebody doesn't agree with me! Lets call him ignorant sheeple!
What an asanine ignorant response, just because someone doesn't agree with a bunch of wacky tomb raider wannabes doesn't make them sheeple. Voting for mainstream Republicans and Democrats does, watching mainstream media does, I don't do any of that, I just have my own opinion on every issue and won't let any crowd influence me, even one that is SUPPOSED to be non sheeple like the CTers here, but apparantly its not okay to have a differeing opinion without getting insulted. You are acting a lot like a sheeple, calling other CTers like me sheeple just because they might disagree on a issue to pressure people into you're opinion. That is trying to force group think on people. If you disagree, then just disagree with the message.
I happen to place greater value on our history just like other countries like Spain should then salvage rights. You have the right to the fruits of your labor, does that mean you should loot a newly discovered archeological find if it was on land? Why should it be any different on the water? I would hope my government colludes with foreign governments to recover anything we might have lost if this happens to us, we have had lots of ships sunk over the same time period.

Originally posted by Unilluminist
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

WAAA! WAAA! somebody doesn't agree with me! Lets call him ignorant sheeple!
What an asanine ignorant response, just because someone doesn't agree with a bunch of wacky tomb raider wannabes doesn't make them sheeple. Voting for mainstream Republicans and Democrats does, watching mainstream media does, I don't do any of that, I just have my own opinion on every issue and won't let any crowd influence me, even one that is SUPPOSED to be non sheeple like the CTers here, but apparantly its not okay to have a differeing opinion without getting insulted. You are acting a lot like a sheeple, calling other CTers like me sheeple just because they might disagree on a issue to pressure people into you're opinion. That is trying to force group think on people. If you disagree, then just disagree with the message.
I happen to place greater value on our history just like other countries like Spain should then salvage rights. You have the right to the fruits of your labor, does that mean you should loot a newly discovered archeological find if it was on land? Why should it be any different on the water? I would hope my government colludes with foreign governments to recover anything we might have lost if this happens to us, we have had lots of ships sunk over the same time period.

I didn't use the term "sheeple". I used "dumb cow".

If Spain wanted it, then they should have put effort into recovering it. In Amerca, you cannot lay claim to something that you left seemingly discarded and made no effort to recover. Just like if i dig through your garbage. You abandon it, and the legal presumption is then that you lay no claims to it as property.

Further, in America, you are entitled to recompense for your efforts.

But even more, one would not expect the government that ones tax dollars go to support to work behind your back to do something that would bankrupt you and your company.

Don't pretend for 1 second that our government is just that rightous. They are not. If those scoundrels are working against The People, there must be some compelling reason why.

It looks to me like just another example of our own government selling us out.

edit to add: I am not singling out any 1 person or group in my rant. I am addressing all people. If it hits a nerve, then you may be the person i am talking to. Our nation has been sold down the river by these scoundrels. i will not accept any excuses.

We are not talking about a small matter here. This is a foundational principle of the United States. Property Rights are critical to "the American way". If you disagree with me, defend your statement as being American. Otherwise, i stand by my assertion that it is unAmerican.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Sheeple, cattle, brainwashed masses, its the same thing, that is what you meant when you say that.

Like I said, history, archeological finds belong to their respective people, on land and on water. They should be compensated, and maybe both governments are at fault for not setting up a better system to deal with situations like this beforehand. These kinds of things should be funded with government and private grants like archeologists are. I don't think they are selling "us" out, I am big on property rights when it comes to your home and personal property. Not everything can be private property though, there are things that should be public property like your countries historical artifacts. We had many privateers sunk in the war of 1812, they all probably have some treasure and other artifacts on there to, if one of those were found international waters by spanish I would expect our government to get the ship back also, or any of the many hundreds of ships we have lost around the world throughout our history, civilian or military.

I also think other things like water, electricity, natural resources should be either held by the public or regulated as public trusts, there are some who would let the elite buy up all of that and monopolize it. Being completley radical free market is unAmerican.

I checked the Wiki and website of the company and am also suspicious of it, I can't find out anything about who is invested in it, and there is little information of the founders. What I do know is they have found close to 100 million in treasure in other expeditions and have came into conflict with other governments before over this including the Spanish. I do know the global elite like to hoard all the worlds treasures in their private collections and can buy up anything with all the manipulated money they control, so I don't like operations like this in private hands at all. There should be some sort of joint American European government project to search the Atlantic for this kind of stuff and we give it to the countries they belong to.

reply to post by Unilluminist



I am 100% for abolishing all concepts of ownership. But i would never work as long as there are greedy people wanting to have more. Stormdancer mentioned in another thread that it is a "survival of the fittest" phenomenon. That may be true in some cases, but in many others it is more of an "ego" problem, where they stroke their egoic phallus by having more than someone else.

Just like at a school where they impose uniforms. Before long, it is things like watches and socks that take the place of the status symbol of clothing that they were trying to remove.

But I digress....i am just commenting on what I perceive to be your stance over all (away from this one issue).

RE: this one issue....i do not fault Spain for laying claim to the treasure. I DO fault the US government for not backing its people up at least as far as our national values require (just compensation for efforts...property ownership, etc). It is what we pay taxes for: so we can recieve decent representation in the international community.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


From what little they tell of themselves and from what I can gather on my own, I don't see it as "us", more likely just a bunch of rich elitists that mostly consider themselves "citizens of the world" anyway. Its just the newest fad for the global elite, they got all the good treasures on land in their private collections, what better way for one of them to show off and one up their elitists buddies then to have hundreds of years old sunken treasure and artifacts they don't have yet? I would need more info on the investors and whats get done with all their artifacts after they find them to think otherwise. Their website is very vague about previous expeditions, I don't trust them.

reply to post by Unilluminist


Despite what you think, the truth is that in this case the US Government secretly handed over confidential documents relating to a US company to a foreign Government...
There is no indication any crimes were committed by that US company or that they in any way acted outside the law of the US.
And if you are so against foreign treasures leaving their country of origin then I guess you can explain why they wanted to get that painting back to the US..I'd be pretty sure it wasn't painted in the US..


Those are the simple facts..

reply to post by backinblack


Despite that, I don't really care about a secretive elitist company until they show themselves to be otherwise. The Spanish define that ship as military and not commercial because thats what it was. It was working on behalf of the Spanish government, it wasn't a private merchant vessel with that much money on board it, that must have been tax revenue from their colonies, maybe they have some claim to that also, but that is between them and Spain. Also why is Odyssey so concerned about the release of customs documents to the Spanish unless they are trying to hide something? Even if it is wrong to release it because it was confidential, how can it harm them unless they are lying about what they found?

As for the painting, it seems it is private property if the guy who is claiming it can prove his grandmother did legitmatley own the painting and was forced to sell it. If that is true, then the grandson should receive it, and is right to claim it as personal property. He is not claiming it on behalf of the US, the US is just helping him because he is a citizen here now.

Originally posted by Unilluminist
reply to post by backinblack

 

Despite that, I don't really care about a secretive elitist company until they show themselves to be otherwise. The Spanish define that ship as military and not commercial because thats what it was. It was working on behalf of the Spanish government, it wasn't a private merchant vessel with that much money on board it, that must have been tax revenue from their colonies, maybe they have some claim to that also, but that is between them and Spain. Also why is Odyssey so concerned about the release of customs documents to the Spanish unless they are trying to hide something? Even if it is wrong to release it because it was confidential, how can it harm them unless they are lying about what they found?

As for the painting, it seems it is private property if the guy who is claiming it can prove his grandmother did legitmatley own the painting and was forced to sell it. If that is true, then the grandson should receive it, and is right to claim it as personal property. He is not claiming it on behalf of the US, the US is just helping him because he is a citizen here now.

You do not know if the company is "elitst" or not. That is your own supposition.

Regardless, it is about our government supporting the fabric of what our nation is supposed to be. They are failing. It is our job to stop them, even if it is "elitists" getting hosed.

Unilluminist

We can see what a scum bag you are by your Avatar. and your vomit mouth.

Spain stole that gold and got it with slaves.

Anything lost at sea is fair game even military its our entrepreneur and free market makes so strong. not declared as memorial.

fair is justice Spain not entitled to it like an expired patent. Our govt committed a crime and official put in prison.

How ignorant you are not learning from this site, take your disinfo troll self and leave

reply to post by airborne82ndscout


Obviously you are just a brain dead neocon if you like the George Soros funded hack Sarah Palin, and I consider you people on the controlled right just as much of a problem as the controlled left. Neocons and Liberals are all NWO stooges. You are the one that is ignorant if you don't read everything on CT sites and fully understand how the NWO works through BOTH parties not just one. Palin is just as bad as Bush and Obama, the global elite own and control her. I want you neocon stooges to hate me and consider me a scumbag, the feeling is mutual. You hate America and love Israel and will spread any disinfo you can to ensure another neocon gets elected regardless of how much it bankrupts us.

There are many maritime laws and treatys which recognize military vessels as property of their nations forever.
The question is whether it is military or civilian, I agree with the Spanish that it is a military vessel with historical value.

Shipwrecks and the law
Military wrecks, however, remain under the jurisdiction–and hence protection–of the government that lost the ship, or that government's successor. Hence, a German U-boat from World War II still technically belongs to the German government, even though the Third Reich is long-defunct. Many military wrecks are also protected by virtue of their being war graves.
en.wikipedia.org...

Black Swan Project
The Black Swan Project is the project name given by Odyssey Marine Exploration for its discovery and recovery of an estimated $500 million (£253 million) worth of silver and gold coins, from a shipwreck, rumored to be the Merchant Royal, which sank about 40 miles (64 km) off the coast of Gibraltar in 1641.[1] The Odyssey team believes wreck might be the Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, which sank off Portugal in 1804, but remains uncertain as to the true identity.
en.wikipedia.org...

The Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes (Our Lady of Mercy in English [3]) was a Spanish frigate which was sunk by the British off the south coast of Portugal on 5 October 1804 during the Battle of Cape Santa Maria.
en.wikipedia.org...

It seems like Odyssey thought they were going after a merchant vessel at first, then when it turns out it might be a military vessel they may have been trying to hide that discovery until the Spanish received documents leaked by our Embassy.

reply to post by Unilluminist


Your a intellectual dishonest sheepish Antisemitic flammable rabies liberal who doesn't know what a neo con is. Your all Left socialist and you guys love to misuse the term & act like your calling us neo nazi.

Palin NWO give me a brake she is an Alaska Country girl who no one heard of. You socialist hate blindly why cause she is pretty?

Since you quote wiki here get educated-----

Neoconservative is a political philosophy that supports using economic and military power to bring market liberalism, democracy, and human rights to other countries.[1][2][3] In economics, unlike paleoconservatives and libertarians, neoconservatives are generally comfortable with a limited welfare state; and, while rhetorically supportive of free markets, they are willing to interfere for overriding social purposes.




en.wikipedia.org...


I am paleoconservatives with Judeo-Christian Constitutional Republic principles, like Lincoln, Edmund Burke, William F. Buckley, Birch Society, and Reagen. Also Jefferson Andrew Jackson and Teddy.


Love America love Israel hate you. Plus i see Law Enforcement as enemy of people against nazi corrupt cops police state. Most cops are bad and power corrupt and have mental emotional dysfunction and don't serve, respect or protect people.They are SS Nazi style dont follow the law & not Constitutional Hero's Peace Officers that they use to be. . Court system is corrupt all about money not justice.

People have the Authority and rights govt must uphold that we are in charge. Govt of the people, for and by the people.


Ownership lost when Possession is lost and anyone can call it a military ship.


Its no longer its a shipwreck in int waters fair game.

got that scumbag? now leave!

reply to post by airborne82ndscout

Its always funny when I see Christian Zionists that pretend to be anti NWO when their branch of religion was started and funded by the NWO to serve their purposes, Israel.

You have no idea what you are talking about if you put Buckley and the Birch society in the same sentence and you are no Bircher, I happen to read their website and other sites they own like New American and agree with most of what they say.

Buckley was one of the key neocons and was intrumental in getting the John Birch Societies rabid anticommunist ideology rejected by the Republican party as extremist. Palin is a neocon.
You Christian Zionists are Neocon tools, so you are a neocon whether you realize or admit it or not.
You a religious heretic and unchristian also for believing that Israel end times nonsense.

2012: The test for American leadership- Alan Keyes
While Glenn Beck was focusing on George Soros as the Machiavellian "eminence grise" behind a whole slew of Democratic left-wingers, Justin Elliot, a commentator at Salon.com, wryly made note of the fact that "one of Sarah Palin's top aides has been on Soros' payroll for years. That would be Republican lobbyist Randy Scheunemann, Palin's foreign-policy adviser and a member of her small inner circle." Not surprisingly, Scheunemann is one of the advisers Palin acquired through her association with John McCain. McCain's creative reliance on George Soros as a source of funds for his political advisers and associates is well-documented and ought to be well-known
www.wnd.com...

Sarah Palin Is JUST Another Neo-Con!
www.youtube.com...