all i ever wanted was for you to love me,

Originally posted by Solomons
I think some Carlin is in order.

That is not to belittle the fact that we need a better environment so that we ourselves may survive, but don't be getting any grandiose ideas that we are 'destroying' the planet or putting it through even a fraction of the turmoil it has been through long before we were around.

I don't think the point is just that we are destroying it. I think the point is that if we don't listen to it, observe the cycles, revere it. We are doomed. We may very well be doomed anyway due to the cycles of nature. It wouldn't surprise me at all and the people who throw down technology as an evil thing are also not thinking about consequences of doing that. I believe we must proceed but not without pay attention to what nature tries to tell us. We get answers from it. Are we screwing up the environment? Who is it going to hurt? More than likely it's going to hurt us more than it hurts the earth. Serves us well for not upholding the idea to balance what we are doing with what the Earth tries to tell us. many of us seem to just ignore that we live on something that is very much alive.

I do agree we must proceed and some of the things we do are not even scratching the surface of ultimate destruction of the Earth... but we are doing ourselves a disservice and we are insulting the source of our answers in the process. The big point that I want to make is that we are going to miss something really big if we ignore what gives us life. The earth is still going to go through it's cycles, but what is it saying to us right now? Pick up your trash while you are trying to repair your little economy? Doubtfully. That is just a respect we should pay as a practice. I think it tells us much bigger much more important things than that and it is for "us"... not "it"....us. Our benefit. Who will suffer when we don't listen?...us and all other life that is capable of suffering.

reply to post by ChaosMagician


my good man you said it well , ty

Love Nephi

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
I think it tells us much bigger much more important things than that and it is for "us"... not "it"....us. Our benefit. Who will suffer when we don't listen?...us and all other life that is capable of suffering.

IT and we, are the same, we belong to this biosphere, are of it, are IT, one single life form, but while IT can exist without us, we cannot without IT, as yet. Soooo....we listen to ourselves, and the better we get to know ourselves, the better we can 'hear' the whole. Micro to the Macro. In terms of communication, that is what we have to overcome. The seperateness. From IT and from each other. But, more urgently we need to protect biodiversity and sustainable land use, otherwise we won't make it that far, but as you say, that is our concern not the planet's, plenty of species have evolved to cope with totally a hostile and toxic environment, because in the past that is what this Earth has been . Until we understand how to let Earth know we're here, or the next sapient life form that replaces us does, Earth has no facility to express on that level, because we are said brain for that level of thought. And while I think some are already capable of that level of giving and have that degree of sensitivity and self-awareness, most of us do not.

Not sure any of that makes sense, but something like that. Possibly

Of course I am slightly worried that if we do achieve that unity the Earth will suddenly reveal itself to be an embryonic lifeform and that unity means the egg is ready to hatch and be born into a new Universe...which I can't see ending great for us either...but I try not to think about that too much

reply to post by Nephi1337


Welcome! It is good to hear at least one agree with my thoughts. I once had an altercation with a Mormon preacher who was trying to convince me that a male God created everyone, including me. I was inclined to chase him away, but instead told him this: "I don't know about you, but I did not spring from the loins of a man, I came from the waters and vagina of a Woman."

Women are humanity's most precious thing, but look at how they are treated. Some men even have no respect for any woman, even their Mothers.
I have a step son like this; he does not respect his Mother at all, says he "forgets" what we have talked about concerning this. When called on this, he says, "I'm just horrible!" I have to deal with this on a daily basis. We have a Preacher that lives down the hill from us, you should see how the wife is treated in their home, a Christian home. She needs "permission" to drive to town, or do anything outside. she is not allowed to talk to any man she may meet, or read any book that is not Christian.
She is s slave in her own home. My wife was like that too, he ex treated her like a dog, talked bad about her, slept around on her, then accused her of doing it, and abused her mentally until she had a breakdown.
I empowered her. I told he this, "Stand up to me, get in my face, and tell me how it is!" I figure if she can do this to me, she can stand to anyone, and she now does.

I have, shall we say, "advised" that in the next, new world, Woman will be Queen, and women will be the power. Men will be their consorts, and as a man, I will be totally happy with this.

reply to post by ChaosMagician

I don't think the point is just that we are destroying it. I think the point is that if we don't listen to it, observe the cycles, revere it. We are doomed. We may very well be doomed anyway due to the cycles of nature.

Sadly, you are quite correct here, the Earth Cycles are real as can be, but are hidden from the populace. Mankind, notice I did not add womankind, mankind has destroyed this planet, again! Four times now the men have brought destruction on this world. "subdue the Earth," they say, as the paving machines slowly pave other the planet...

Well this life that I've lead has took me everywhere
There ain't no place I ain't never gone
But its kind of like the saying that you heard so many times
Well there just ain't no place like home
Did you ever see a she-gator protect her young
Or a fish in a river swimming free
Did you ever see the beauty of the hills of Carolina
Or the sweetness of the grass in Tennessee
And Lord I can't make any changes
All I can do is write 'em in a song
I can see the concrete slowly creepin'
Lord take me and mine before that comes
Do you like to see a mountain stream a-flowin'
Do you like to see a youngun with his dog
Did you ever stop to think about, well, the air your breathin'
Well you better listen to my song
And Lord I can't make any changes
All I can do is write 'em in a song
I can see the concrete slowly creepin'
Lord take me and mine before that comes
I'm not tryin' to put down no big cities
But the things they write about us is just a bore
Well you can take a boy out of ol' Dixieland
But you'll never take ol' Dixie from a boy
And Lord I can't make any changes
All I can do is write 'em in a song
I can see the concrete slowly creepin'
Lord take me and mine before that comes
'Cause I can see the concrete slowly creepin'
Lord take me and mine before that comes

Lynard Skynard - All I Can Do Is Write About It

That's me, all I can do is write about it, being disabled, I can no longer take up arms and fight, nor can I raise my voice as an activist in a crowd. But I can still write. My mouse roars.

Originally posted by autowrench
My wife was like that too, he ex treated her like a dog, talked bad about her, slept around on her, then accused her of doing it, and abused her mentally until she had a breakdown.
I empowered her. I told he this, "Stand up to me, get in my face, and tell me how it is!" I figure if she can do this to me, she can stand to anyone, and she now does.

Love your post, your wife was me, kind of, I'm still fighting myself free, bits remain broke and because everyone pussy foots around me, thinks I'll break if they even raise their voice to me, I can't fix it. I could do with someone to really tell me off and kick me up the arse. So that I can tell them 'how it is.' Safely. Thanks for your post it hurts but it helps.

I still don't agree with matriarchy though...I think balance is best. We should all be Kings and Queens. We are nothing without the other, if we'd only admit it...but I do agree with Peter Pan, one girl is worth twenty boys.

Originally posted by seeyounexttuesdayIT and we, are the same, we belong to this biosphere, are of it, are IT, one single life form, but while IT can exist without us, we cannot without IT, as yet.

That is exactly my point. The things we do just insult what gave us life and we might be completely erased for ignorance... however, if we paid more attention to our world and the universe around us... who knows, maybe we could be an important part of keeping a life sustaining planet just that... or finding possibilities and developing others... that is if we want to continue and if we want to treat whatever home we do have with respect.

Let's say we did something incredibly stupid that destroyed life on earth... eventually the earth may just shrug it off. Perhaps one day even start over and maybe even traces will be left behind of how stupid our species actually was... or maybe just those in control at the time that screwed it up if that's the case. We are so self involved with our own little problems. We make problems just to have something to do in a a lot of cases. many positions and evidence of waste in our society is totally reflective of feeling we need to just create things to do to keep society running as it is. We get backed up for miles in traffic jams, wasting energy and creating smog when many positions could be conducted from home and some positions don't even need to exist at all. I'm not saying those who hold those positions should do without... absolutely not. I'm suggesting we have our priorities backwards in many cases.

But now let's say we turn the table around and say we were a society who was not afraid of change and didn't uphold certain wealthy members of society running so much and more of us were free to explore and discover things concerning our world and the universe... free to think.

... but it looks like that isn't going to happen because we have to duct tape society and our economy together as we see it now and can't afford to make time or resources for things on a wider scale of possible importance... and are reluctant to change and are reluctant to employ a better system if anyone was ever able to think up a better system in the first place... not that it isn't possible I think, because the earth has already given us all the materials we need... but if we try to change- all hell might break loose and everything goes to # anyway and maybe the earth itself is better off without us anyway because we are apparently a society who upholds certain things that we should not. Power, greed and abusive control.

We could try to stand up for change and progress but who would listen? If things changed too drastically for some, people may suffer and die just from the shock of it all.

We could just try to hold what we know together so so called society doesn't completely fall apart, keep doing as we do and hope that something will save us from ourselves but will it come?

Maybe we will just keep doing the self important, indulgent things we do and destroy ourselves and die like one great big happy family.

Who knows? What I believe is that as a living being it is important to treat life something sacred... so which answer is best? Fighting for change to become an evolved, more intelligent, unafraid society that doesn't value petty ideals of egotism at the risk of it all blowing up in our proud faces...or accepting the facts and the way things are and not looking above or beyond yet hoping and praying that one day our meager lives will be worth something to someone... or having faith that no matter we do, all will be forgiven in a spiritual sense, even in our ultimate demise because it's not our faults we were born with our erroneous human brains?... maybe an even bigger change than we can imagine is due.

I don't know, but even humans should be able to relate to the idea of giving respect to it's mother... the one who provided for and revealed answers to the curious child. If we refuse to listen how will we hear the warnings of her wrath? As a child, don't we learn from our mothers first... and then learn about and create ourselves? Or isn't that how it should be?... but maybe it's not, maybe we just run wild and not listen and live a life of mistakes, learn from them and find ourselves in the process and look back and think how we should have listened.

reply to post by seeyounexttuesday


I feel for you, and have empathy for the ways you were treated. Men have ruined this world, and it is time for Women to stand up, and be counted. I know you all have been weakened, you have been oppressed, and repressed, and hurt, and tortured, and raped, and talked down to. Well, Ladies, Stand up for yourself, there isn't any man there to do it for you. The Goddess is on your side, call upon Quan Yin, she is the Goddess of Women and Children, and the protector of them.

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
I don't know, but even humans should be able to relate to the idea of giving respect to it's mother... the one who provided for and revealed answers to the curious child. If we refuse to listen how will we hear the warnings of her wrath? As a child, don't we learn from our mothers first... and then learn about and create ourselves? Or isn't that how it should be?... but maybe it's not, maybe we just run wild and not listen and live a life of mistakes, learn from them and find ourselves in the process and look back and think how we should have listened.

Lovely empassioned post

She (I will allow gender for your benefit), is not our mother, she did not give us life. She doesn't speak to us, she has no voice. She has no wrath. She is oblivious in the same way as the fetus in the womb, or as we are of all the parasites that live on our skin and the bacteria in our gut. All the she is aware of is the 'whole'. Therefore, her 'wrath' shows when she needs to make adjustments, a volcanic eruption, seismic shifts, tectonic movements, are all about her ensuring that the conditions are optimum for her, as a whole, to survive. What gives US life is the symbient relationship she holds with the Sun and the Moon (primarily). Without those two, all of us, her included, cannot survive. All three of US are inextricable linked in LIFE. We, she and us, are their child, whom they nurture. And, possibly, gender was created so that they could touch. But perhaps I am drifting a little into romance, but traditional Chinese storytelling in particular promotes that view and I like it.

I was listening to a discussion programme on the radio some months ago regarding the problem of climate change, or rather the problem of communicating the scale of the problem to the 'masses' and one of the panelists explained that it is like going back to Ancient Egypt and asking those people, 5000 years ago or so, to care about us. What we do right now will have an enormous impact on the future, we are on a slippery slope, but we can still turn this around. But, it is a long haul in terms of re-education and some are more progressive than others.

In the UK, the situation is more stark, we are a small island with very limited resources, we cannot sustain our population in the medium to long term unless we change. Almost all of children's programming produced by the BBC has an environmental theme. Kids are now telling their parents not to use the car, not to drop litter, to recycle. Mine is anyway, but I only let my child watch domestic TV channels, because the stuff that they are producing in the US is almost consistently encouraging children to disrespect their parents (which in most cases are absent or stupid), that what you own is paramount to who you are, and to take because you want it. Similarly in schools their are initiatives to compost waste, to recycle, to learn how to grow your own produce, so there is some hope. On the reverse of that though, current government cuts have severed completely funding towards projects that promote sustainability and biodiversity. So two steps forward, one step back, towards a better future.

Either way, in the UK, we are fortunate in that we have a drive to reduce not only carbon emissions but at the same time almost nothing is being done to encourage more people to support local businesses and producers, but because of the former, private enterprise is to some extent cutting that path. Unless we support them though, it will have little effect. I am on a very limited income, all of my income goes on basic sustenance, if I have any 'disposable income' I spend it largely on my child. It is easy for me therefore. I, wherever possible, shop second hand or in charity shops, I use my local greengrocer, butcher and baker. I produce one sack of landfill rubbish every four weeks, the rest is recycled, or composted. I don't buy much in the way of mass produced, processed or imported goods, if it wasn't for the gas and electric that I still have to use, my carbon footprint would be quite small. We should all be moving towards that for the sake of the generations to come, but most don't care about the generations to come, even many of those who have children don't care. And that is the long haul.

In terms of climate change, we in the west will not suffer too much for a very, very long time, but in other areas, where erosion has irreversible damaged reefs, the next El Nino could be devastating. Those reefs sustain a population of around five million people. Over night those people will be without the resources to support themselves, and then what happens? We will all complain when they land on our doorstep cap in hand because we have and they don't, and it was the activities of the west that caused that erosion.

I don't worry about the planet, as such, I worry about the exploitation of resources, including human, that leads to the death and destruction of other lifeforms, but the planet will prosper without us and it will be our own fault if we go extinct, I just wish we didn't have to take all the lovely animals and trees and planets along with us, we deserve extinction, they don't. So, I feel disappointment more than anything that we don't realise that we are all in this together, and that if we stopped buying the # that these corporations produce they would have to produce the things that we do want. Back to natural law I say, including natural economics, and if that means the high jump for us, then nature knows best. Loving the planet is all very nice, but if we loved each other it would be much, much greater than that and a really leap forward.

Originally posted by autowrench
I feel for you, and have empathy for the ways you were treated. Men have ruined this world, and it is time for Women to stand up, and be counted. I know you all have been weakened, you have been oppressed, and repressed, and hurt, and tortured, and raped, and talked down to. Well, Ladies, Stand up for yourself, there isn't any man there to do it for you. The Goddess is on your side, call upon Quan Yin, she is the Goddess of Women and Children, and the protector of them.

Thank you, you're very kind, and I don't mean to be ungrateful at all, but I am very much more than a woman, I am a human first and foremost, and there are many men and boys suffering oppression too who need someone to stand up for them.

And as the mother of a son I cannot set myself apart for special treatment, that's why I need a kick up the arse. I need to pick myself up, dust myself off and start all over again and stop being frightened of getting knocked down everytime I open my mouth.

I want to move forward and get back to the fighting

Right On
I wish you well in all you do, may the blessing of the Goddess be with you.
You will be fine.

Originally posted by seeyounexttuesday

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
I don't know, but even humans should be able to relate to the idea of giving respect to it's mother... the one who provided for and revealed answers to the curious child. If we refuse to listen how will we hear the warnings of her wrath? As a child, don't we learn from our mothers first... and then learn about and create ourselves? Or isn't that how it should be?... but maybe it's not, maybe we just run wild and not listen and live a life of mistakes, learn from them and find ourselves in the process and look back and think how we should have listened.

Lovely empassioned post

She (I will allow gender for your benefit), is not our mother, she did not give us life. She doesn't speak to us, she has no voice. She has no wrath. She is oblivious in the same way as the fetus in the womb, or as we are of all the parasites that live on our skin and the bacteria in our gut. All the she is aware of is the 'whole'. Therefore, her 'wrath' shows when she needs to make adjustments, a volcanic eruption, seismic shifts, tectonic movements, are all about her ensuring that the conditions are optimum for her, as a whole, to survive. What gives US life is the symbient relationship she holds with the Sun and the Moon (primarily). Without those two, all of us, her included, cannot survive. All three of US are inextricable linked in LIFE. We, she and us, are their child, whom they nurture. And, possibly, gender was created so that they could touch. But perhaps I am drifting a little into romance, but traditional Chinese storytelling in particular promotes that view and I like it.

I was listening to a discussion programme on the radio some months ago regarding the problem of climate change, or rather the problem of communicating the scale of the problem to the 'masses' and one of the panelists explained that it is like going back to Ancient Egypt and asking those people, 5000 years ago or so, to care about us. What we do right now will have an enormous impact on the future, we are on a slippery slope, but we can still turn this around. But, it is a long haul in terms of re-education and some are more progressive than others.

In the UK, the situation is more stark, we are a small island with very limited resources, we cannot sustain our population in the medium to long term unless we change. Almost all of children's programming produced by the BBC has an environmental theme. Kids are now telling their parents not to use the car, not to drop litter, to recycle. Mine is anyway, but I only let my child watch domestic TV channels, because the stuff that they are producing in the US is almost consistently encouraging children to disrespect their parents (which in most cases are absent or stupid), that what you own is paramount to who you are, and to take because you want it. Similarly in schools their are initiatives to compost waste, to recycle, to learn how to grow your own produce, so there is some hope. On the reverse of that though, current government cuts have severed completely funding towards projects that promote sustainability and biodiversity. So two steps forward, one step back, towards a better future.

Either way, in the UK, we are fortunate in that we have a drive to reduce not only carbon emissions but at the same time almost nothing is being done to encourage more people to support local businesses and producers, but because of the former, private enterprise is to some extent cutting that path. Unless we support them though, it will have little effect. I am on a very limited income, all of my income goes on basic sustenance, if I have any 'disposable income' I spend it largely on my child. It is easy for me therefore. I, wherever possible, shop second hand or in charity shops, I use my local greengrocer, butcher and baker. I produce one sack of landfill rubbish every four weeks, the rest is recycled, or composted. I don't buy much in the way of mass produced, processed or imported goods, if it wasn't for the gas and electric that I still have to use, my carbon footprint would be quite small. We should all be moving towards that for the sake of the generations to come, but most don't care about the generations to come, even many of those who have children don't care. And that is the long haul.

In terms of climate change, we in the west will not suffer too much for a very, very long time, but in other areas, where erosion has irreversible damaged reefs, the next El Nino could be devastating. Those reefs sustain a population of around five million people. Over night those people will be without the resources to support themselves, and then what happens? We will all complain when they land on our doorstep cap in hand because we have and they don't, and it was the activities of the west that caused that erosion.

I don't worry about the planet, as such, I worry about the exploitation of resources, including human, that leads to the death and destruction of other lifeforms, but the planet will prosper without us and it will be our own fault if we go extinct, I just wish we didn't have to take all the lovely animals and trees and planets along with us, we deserve extinction, they don't. So, I feel disappointment more than anything that we don't realise that we are all in this together, and that if we stopped buying the # that these corporations produce they would have to produce the things that we do want. Back to natural law I say, including natural economics, and if that means the high jump for us, then nature knows best. Loving the planet is all very nice, but if we loved each other it would be much, much greater than that and a really leap forward.

Don't allow "her" gender for my benefit. I'm not the one that started the whole mother earth thing. I use it in this case because it allows me to be creative in painting connections. We are directly a part of the earth and yes, the sun is also important as are many things just like my mother gave me life but her mother hadn't given her life... neither of us would exist.

My main point was not in trying to break down the fundamentals while still trying to attach it to a metaphorical story... it was because I can see both sides of the coin. I have argued on behalf of both sides. I am indeed a lover of nature but what if our economy goes so far into the toilet that we can no longer support important programs for exploration and other things? Do we let people starve and continue or do we take care of our little problems and let the rest sort itself out.

It would be all fine and dandy if we didn't have evidence of such things as very large objects hurtling at us from space that some believe have caused catastrophic events in the earths past. That's just one example out of a plethora of possibilities. What if mankind could find a way to protect the Earth from such events? Then we could protect IT and allow it to keep sustaining the life thereon... then we would be useful indeed. Who knows what will happen? Can we stop paying so much attention to unimportant matters to allow ourselves to take care of all things pertinent instead of wasting over here in this arena and then dropping the ball somewhere that it actually matters. We should be able to take care of our own little problems and still look beyond... but not how we are doing it currently.... and as for the west... look at the US economy right now. imagine it getting worse... imagine it getting so bad hat we drop the ball on many things. Do you feel 100% safe from all possibilities that could cause us to spiral into devastating weather changes. I'm not one of these people spitting on others who drive humvees because in the end, that probably won't amount to a hill of beans, but I do acknowledge how easily our climate could be turned on it's nose creating a disastrous situation and I don't count any of the world out in those possibilities because nature, the earth, the universe... it's full of possibilities. Are we paying enough attention is my point. Can we afford to? If we can't, how can we change that? How can we make it to where these things matter more to the average person rather than all the unimportant crap we spend our time on? How can we cover all bases in our little world of problems... and beyond just what our brains can fathom from day to day. At this point, it doesn't seem that we can because we are not ready to sacrifice our petty little idiosyncrasies in order to invest more time into paying attention to what is going on around us... so we may due for a lesson.

Oh yeah... almost forgot...speaking of things falling from the sky. I saw a meteor today that was visible for 3-4 seconds...most of them average 1 s I think....most are just a quick streak of light. In this one I saw colors in the tail...different oranges.
It was just before dusk, still pretty light out but getting darker. I'd say it covered nearly 40 degrees of the sky in it's downward vertical streak. It was pretty cool. I hope it didn't hit anything because I don't see how that could have burnt up completely. It must have been large but who knows?

Just think if colossal size astroid came toward the earth... I wonder what the hell we'd be seeing in the sky. How the hell would that look? I can't help but to wonder if smaller rocks look that impressive... what would a huge one look like? Like death I suppose. That would be crazy if it had faces on it like the moon does as it was careening towards us.

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
My main point was not in trying to break down the fundamentals while still trying to attach it to a metaphorical story... it was because I can see both sides of the coin. I have argued on behalf of both sides. I am indeed a lover of nature but what if our economy goes so far into the toilet that we can no longer support important programs for exploration and other things? Do we let people starve and continue or do we take care of our little problems and let the rest sort itself out.

I don't care about economies, not the current ones anyway, I hope they go down the pan. I don't care about exploration if that involves children being murdered to support it. If the economy crashes tomorrow I and my family will survive, we may even have a chance to thrive...it is all castles in the air, it is all being held up with matchsticks anyway, I give it 15 to 20 years before the # really hits it, because it is currently only being held together with elastoplast. I don't care one iota for it. We are already letting people starve, every single second of the day...look at Nigeria, the Congo, Sierra Leone...take a pin and stick it in a map and there you will find suffering so that WE can have.

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
It would be all fine and dandy if we didn't have evidence of such things as very large objects hurtling at us from space that some believe have caused catastrophic events in the earths past. That's just one example out of a plethora of possibilities. What if mankind could find a way to protect the Earth from such events? Then we could protect IT and allow it to keep sustaining the life thereon... then we would be useful indeed. Who knows what will happen?

That is why I don't worry about such things. You and I are nothing, absolutely worthless in the scheme of things. If a meteor hit the earth and wiped us out with nuclear winter tomorrow, what can I do to stop it? What can anyone do? So why give it a thought? Should we continue to exploit others just in case we get wiped out? Should we take everything we can get just because it might not be there tomorrow?

Que sera, sera.

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
Can we stop paying so much attention to unimportant matters to allow ourselves to take care of all things pertinent instead of wasting over here in this arena and then dropping the ball somewhere that it actually matters. We should be able to take care of our own little problems and still look beyond... but not how we are doing it currently.... and as for the west... look at the US economy right now. imagine it getting worse... imagine it getting so bad hat we drop the ball on many things. Do you feel 100% safe from all possibilities that could cause us to spiral into devastating weather changes.

Again, why worry about the things you cannot change, concentrate on those things that you can change. Know that you are being true to yourself and be the change that you want to see, and instil that in the next generation. However slow, however slight, we ARE making progress, and WE can overcome anything an everything...but money, economies are never worth losing sleep about. And, I hold to the great Billy Connelly, 'there is no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes'. Nature is unpredicatable, to an extent, why worry about such things. It is simple, we will adapt or die. I am adapting. Always.

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
I'm not one of these people spitting on others who drive humvees because in the end, that probably won't amount to a hill of beans, but I do acknowledge how easily our climate could be turned on it's nose creating a disastrous situation and I don't count any of the world out in those possibilities because nature, the earth, the universe... it's full of possibilities. Are we paying enough attention is my point. Can we afford to? If we can't, how can we change that? How can we make it to where these things matter more to the average person rather than all the unimportant crap we spend our time on? How can we cover all bases in our little world of problems... and beyond just what our brains can fathom from day to day. At this point, it doesn't seem that we can because we are not ready to sacrifice our petty little idiosyncrasies in order to invest more time into paying attention to what is going on around us... so we may due for a lesson.

Personally speaking, if I could get hold of one, I wouldn't mind taking an AK47 to all those people who drive petrol guzzleing vehicles. They're asking for it, they pollute my air, oxegen thieves the lots of them

The power is in YOUR pocket, in all of our pockets to change the world. They wouldn't make this crap, they wouldn't exploit people and resources, if we didn't passively agree to it, by buying the crap that they produce. If trade was fair, if we insisted on the implementation of the Universal Bill of Human Rights, which ALL Western countries have signed up to, them none of this would be an issue. Everyone would have the same rights as you and I do, everyone would get a living wage, and resources could not be exploited using conflict and war as a cover.

People complain about corporations, the PTB, but it is all hot air, if you still go out and buy what those people are producing, be it cars, be it clothing, be it technology, food etc etc etc, it doesn't matter, you need to put up or shut up and stop making excuses for yourself and for others. Educate yourself, buy only fair trade, buy only local produced food...as long as everyone spends with a conscience...and make sure you tell everyone you know...MAKE THEM FEEL GUILTY BECAUSE THEY ARE because the sooner people stop wanting something bigger and better, stop defining themselves by what they own, or what they have that someone else doesn't have, the sooner we can turn this thing around.

ok...I'm going to come back to this later because I have to go to work in five minutes and don't have time to read this but i did read a little bit about an astroid hitting earth.... apparantly someone has never seen Armageddon.

Not that I really think it could be done that way, but I more faith now that we can solve big problems than ever.

I'll get back to this later.

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
ok...I'm going to come back to this later because I have to go to work in five minutes and don't have time to read this but i did read a little bit about an astroid hitting earth.... apparantly someone has never seen Armageddon.

Not that I really think it could be done that way, but I more faith now that we can solve big problems than ever.

I'll get back to this later.

OOOOH! Several times actually, but just for Bruce. Love Bruce!

Originally posted by seeyounexttuesday

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
My main point was not in trying to break down the fundamentals while still trying to attach it to a metaphorical story... it was because I can see both sides of the coin. I have argued on behalf of both sides. I am indeed a lover of nature but what if our economy goes so far into the toilet that we can no longer support important programs for exploration and other things? Do we let people starve and continue or do we take care of our little problems and let the rest sort itself out.

I don't care about economies, not the current ones anyway, I hope they go down the pan. I don't care about exploration if that involves children being murdered to support it. If the economy crashes tomorrow I and my family will survive, we may even have a chance to thrive...it is all castles in the air, it is all being held up with matchsticks anyway, I give it 15 to 20 years before the # really hits it, because it is currently only being held together with elastoplast. I don't care one iota for it. We are already letting people starve, every single second of the day...look at Nigeria, the Congo, Sierra Leone...take a pin and stick it in a map and there you will find suffering so that WE can have.

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
It would be all fine and dandy if we didn't have evidence of such things as very large objects hurtling at us from space that some believe have caused catastrophic events in the earths past. That's just one example out of a plethora of possibilities. What if mankind could find a way to protect the Earth from such events? Then we could protect IT and allow it to keep sustaining the life thereon... then we would be useful indeed. Who knows what will happen?

That is why I don't worry about such things. You and I are nothing, absolutely worthless in the scheme of things. If a meteor hit the earth and wiped us out with nuclear winter tomorrow, what can I do to stop it? What can anyone do? So why give it a thought? Should we continue to exploit others just in case we get wiped out? Should we take everything we can get just because it might not be there tomorrow?

Que sera, sera.

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
Can we stop paying so much attention to unimportant matters to allow ourselves to take care of all things pertinent instead of wasting over here in this arena and then dropping the ball somewhere that it actually matters. We should be able to take care of our own little problems and still look beyond... but not how we are doing it currently.... and as for the west... look at the US economy right now. imagine it getting worse... imagine it getting so bad hat we drop the ball on many things. Do you feel 100% safe from all possibilities that could cause us to spiral into devastating weather changes.

Again, why worry about the things you cannot change, concentrate on those things that you can change. Know that you are being true to yourself and be the change that you want to see, and instil that in the next generation. However slow, however slight, we ARE making progress, and WE can overcome anything an everything...but money, economies are never worth losing sleep about. And, I hold to the great Billy Connelly, 'there is no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes'. Nature is unpredicatable, to an extent, why worry about such things. It is simple, we will adapt or die. I am adapting. Always.

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
I'm not one of these people spitting on others who drive humvees because in the end, that probably won't amount to a hill of beans, but I do acknowledge how easily our climate could be turned on it's nose creating a disastrous situation and I don't count any of the world out in those possibilities because nature, the earth, the universe... it's full of possibilities. Are we paying enough attention is my point. Can we afford to? If we can't, how can we change that? How can we make it to where these things matter more to the average person rather than all the unimportant crap we spend our time on? How can we cover all bases in our little world of problems... and beyond just what our brains can fathom from day to day. At this point, it doesn't seem that we can because we are not ready to sacrifice our petty little idiosyncrasies in order to invest more time into paying attention to what is going on around us... so we may due for a lesson.

Personally speaking, if I could get hold of one, I wouldn't mind taking an AK47 to all those people who drive petrol guzzleing vehicles. They're asking for it, they pollute my air, oxegen thieves the lots of them

The power is in YOUR pocket, in all of our pockets to change the world. They wouldn't make this crap, they wouldn't exploit people and resources, if we didn't passively agree to it, by buying the crap that they produce. If trade was fair, if we insisted on the implementation of the Universal Bill of Human Rights, which ALL Western countries have signed up to, them none of this would be an issue. Everyone would have the same rights as you and I do, everyone would get a living wage, and resources could not be exploited using conflict and war as a cover.

People complain about corporations, the PTB, but it is all hot air, if you still go out and buy what those people are producing, be it cars, be it clothing, be it technology, food etc etc etc, it doesn't matter, you need to put up or shut up and stop making excuses for yourself and for others. Educate yourself, buy only fair trade, buy only local produced food...as long as everyone spends with a conscience...and make sure you tell everyone you know...MAKE THEM FEEL GUILTY BECAUSE THEY ARE because the sooner people stop wanting something bigger and better, stop defining themselves by what they own, or what they have that someone else doesn't have, the sooner we can turn this thing around.

I agree, the economy is twisted and contorted... but I do believe people could have what they need. Everyone. The Earth provides a lot. We should find more efficient ways to do things and make necessity first priority but greed has found a way to make things difficult for others to a degree where the needy are ignored. Most people don't really want to be this way, but their hands are tied by the current system. We need to prioritize... but I'm no stranger to thinking it's all a waste of time either.... thinking we will never get there. People have their priorities all wrong...some. I do think things have progressed though, in general... especially consider all the damn people in the world, which we do need to control that number. Even though things have progressed, I do agree that a change is due to come and it may very well be the economy. Something's gotta give. We were not able to make the changes happen, but changes will come by force.

You may not care about the economy, but you know that this is exactly what a lot of people are screaming about... especially those in control. If it bottoms out and people are not in stores buying a bunch of crap and spending all their money on gas to get to work...so on and so forth, it will put the squeeze on those in charge. they will still be in charge with all their stuff and some of them have the power to acquire resources that do not belong to them right now in the event something like that happens... but still, a division among them will start taking place over how things are going to go. In the end, some of those who are survivalists may be able to make it in the event there is no natural catastrophic events but don't ever count that out. Hell, it doesn't even have to be something like a gargantuan astroid. It could be enough fire that it tips the balance of the breathable atmosphere... the fire itself doesn't even have to kill a lot of people. We already cut down a lot of trees, up that number a bit for some reason that sounds good to tptb... and you know that we have a fire season now in some parts of the world. In the us it is in the west and in florida to a small degree. Imagine that problem on a wider scale. We could fool around with the delicate balance enough to tip the scale to an extent where people would start dying in droves from simply not being able to breathe.... then next comes a serious climate change. This could actually happen... I could think of scenarios all day but my point is, no matter which system gets screwed up...people will suffer... even more than they are now and that is why many are reluctant to change anything they are doing and simply want to take care of their own and hope they can just keep riding this thing out and these things won't happen in their lifetime. Something has to give, something is going to change whether it be the economy or the climate or god only knows what else.
When i say explore... I'm not talking ruffians that say ARG on big boats with skull flags kind of exploring... or the "explorers" that carry death and disease with them. I don't mean putting children in harms way. If we have to make sacrifice in our comforts, so be it. I live pretty meagerly and I don't see why others can't do the same and still uphold technological progression and sciences meant to understand our world and the universe better.... unfortunately many people want to say these things are not necessary and their reasoning has a certain logic to it. We have to first get our own # together and juts be able to take care of ourselves before we can invest even more time and resources into such things because I don't think that right now massive interest is taking place in these fields. people are worried about their little lives as they should be... they can't even understand half the crap that scientists who are doing studies find... some of it ISN'T important. Who gets to say what is? Who should be the ones to make sacrifices? Those who are already peons and doing without? Where do we draw the line? We have an Earth that can provide what people need. We could manage these things and still have time to learn and explore. Who is going to come up with the right method of management that will allow these things to be... and if someone did, could they enforce it? No, not unless they are terribly TERRIBLY influential.

People are too reluctant to change and that is why the scales will be tipped in a forceful way to bring about change I'm afraid... and I'll agree that i would much rather see the economy crap out then see a huge catastrophic event that kills a lot of people and disrupts the entire way the world works for some time in order to bring about change, but don't think that if it is the economy that goes to #... that all hell is not going to break loose. It will. I seriously believe that and not only will you be trying to survive, you may very well be fighting for your life.

I don't know about you but i don't exploit others. i don't have that on my conscience. If there is a chance I could protect my loved ones from harms way in the event that something like this happened... you can believe that i would try and you never know how something small can mean a lot. I'm not trying to give myself a lot of importance but if you look at what is already there as very important, then it might keep many from constantly trying to create more unnecessary things and therefore, more problems. Sometimes when i am exasperated at how stupid things seem from day to day, I give up my hope in any chances and go through a short phase of acceptance... accepting that we are all fvcked and we might as well all have a nice cynical laugh about it. the sooner the planet is rid of us, the better. That is not the mindset of someone who is enjoying life... and sometimes I do enjoy life...sometimes, not so much. I'm not suffering but people sometimes have a knack for reminding me how hopelessly impossible they and everything else can be... and I get to that point because of people who i have known that have done some of the weirdest things by me. They have been like smaller scales of the bigger hopelessness, the bigger oppression, the bigger need to control things without the right to do so. When you look around and see people like this everywhere even if they are not running you down and trying to kill, even if they put on that civilized facade... you know they are little models of the bigger problem and at those times it appears to an unbreakable cycle.

By no means am i worrying myself to death over things i can't control. If that is what you think, you have the wrong idea. I'm just posting points of view... I have posted many DIFFERENT points of view. You need not worry about what I am worrying about... and I'm not trying to be rude, but you should consider that maybe you're not completely seeing my mindset and think i am talking from a mood or feelings that isn't so. I am well aware that progress has been made, that doesn't mean that bad things won't happen... that is just acceptance talking. I do very much believe that I am able to make changes... now more so than ever. I didn't always feel that way because I was busy slowing wading out of other people unnecessary bull# that they formed around me like a moat because of their own fears and insecurities and preconceived notions. I have known too many people who were influential and prime examples of a stark lack of faith... however much they still wanted to preach it. They manifested their own demons through me and I am beginning to see my way out of that. that is personal stuff, there is no need to go into details about that but one thing I have learned and will keep doing is thinking on my own as best i can despite all the outside influence. I know myself better than anyone and no one suggests to me how to be because of something they see fit. I'll do what i want. I'll do what i see fit. I tend to rebel against influence because some things require a level of truth that others simply cannot subtly influence by the power of suggestion. I am aware of my area of control... I don't let that inkling sway certain kinds of decisions. I never will.

...but back to the ecological and economy issues. Like i said, I live pretty frugally. I plan on going further with it and attempting almost complete independence from the system because I think that way of living is best, but if everyone follows suit... the # it going to hit the fan. Let there be no doubt that the government is not going to like that at all. If they can make enough changes maybe it would turn out ok but look at them now. Do you think THEY will be able to adjust? If so, why aren't they already adjusting and helping us adjust since they are the government? If you want to tell someone to adapt, tell the the government. As for changing the world one by one by not buying certain things, if we even could get everyone to follow along, our current government is not going to allow us to take them down to bare bones. The only other choice is to see them toppled... if the government is toppled, you might not like who will wind up in charge. people will not be ruling themselves like some imagine.
The best way to do it is to change it from within or topple it insidiously. The fact still remains, someone needs to have a plan....a big plan, not just people planning out their survival by hoarding resources. Do i think that is a bad idea? no... it would buy you time, survival skills could sustain you as well, but there *will* be bigger problems coming along and to solve those bigger problems, you'll need that bigger plan, you'll need some kind of order on a global scale. We're talking the US economy here. If this government starts falling apart, there will be war. There will be massive war. The government is not simply going to go away. It will be a HUGE mess. LOTS of people will be involved. It will set off a domino effect that will reach all the way around the globe and everyone will start reacting. If a new power comes in and takes over because our government can't cut it, do you think that new power wants to deal with a bunch of crazy gun toting americans? Ask the VietNamese how we liked dealing with them... and there are all sorts of new ways to get rid of people these days.

My point still remains, if you want to protect yourself from one disaster... how can you not worry about another disaster? seems illogical. To me it seems to be a case of the spinning wheel.... which catastrophe is going to start the cascade? Many people say Economy... and so that their primary concern. They do have a valid reason for feeling this way. Who is going to catch us when we fall? We will not be moving to a state independent living... not unless what remains of the military are still in tact to defend our borders and are able to keep their # together despite what goes on in washington. Technology is important. So is science. So is the economy.

What parts of society are NOT important? What parts are a waste? That is the question to ask if one wants to try to think of a better plan on a broad scale because you cannot save yourselves from every possibility and no one knows where that spinning wheel is going to stop.

Some things we can simply do without and be comfortable, happy, provide for many more people and still have time to learn. Is it going to happen? Probably not... oh well, but if I'm going to dare to be an optimist, I'm not going to spend my time placing bets. I want the *real* solution.

Who is going to invest in our environment now? I surely hope someone does because as the way things are now, the majority of us are not able to make the ecological changes we need to make. Many of us can barely keep our heads above water.

Who needs to make a sacrifice here and of what? All these things are part of the whole.