My Understanding of Karma So Far.

Okay first of all, I am feeling it.

I actually feel the gears turning towards a better tommorow.

First off, Bob Marley truly was a great man with very meaningful music.

I came across this one song that really hit home for me:



This is how I believe it works:

Energy is everywhere. We absorb and give off energy of all kinds. We are walking energy beings.

I think karma works by whenever two things interact, energy from that encounter is stored. When the circumstances are right, that energy is released back into the world.

So let's say someone encounters another person. When the interactions take place and then end, that memory is stored in the form of energy. That energy will manifest itself when the time is right.

It is really great and I am pretty sure most people believe in Karma.

It comes in other names too. "What goes around comes around."

"You do good, you get good."

I will elaborate further, but this is enough for an opening post.

Please give your input.

Thanks,

-SES

reply to post by SolarE-Souljah


I believe that what you do comes back to you. For example, when you're nasty to someone, something unpleasant will happen to you. If you do something good for someone, something good will happen.

Karma is an extremely complicated subject, the subtle aspects of karma cannot be understood by a limited mind, and one needs to have a fully awakened mind to fully comprehend it, so we are left with crude definitions that don't quite hit the mark.

The concept of karma even varies as to which belief system you adhere to ( see link ).

IMO the root reason the concept of karma was introduced was to instill responsibility in the people who have faith in the concept, it makes the believer responsible for thier own actions, therefore encouraging them to treat others as they wish to be treated. Karma even goes as far as to say that our thought processes have karmic consequences and again this encourages the believer to take control of that aspect of themselves and because karma is considered a universal law it removes any third party blame.

"Third party blame" I know people will target that statement and I cannot argue the point effectively because there is a large element of faith involved, it is hard to see suffering is our own doing when it is fair easier to percieve that it is others imposing themselves, thier views etc on us and I am not here to convince anyone differently. It is a belief I hold and it makes life far more enjoyable for me.

So back to your theory, if it encourages you to be a more mindful, thoughtful, compassionate etc person then your heading in the right direction.

There are 6 billion+ people on this rock, thats 6 billion+ points of view, there is only one which is right for you and that is yours.

Karma is an excuse for the selfish to not experience the responsibility of empathy and a way to control the unpleasant feelings/uprisings of those who draw the short stick in life.

reply to post by SolarE-Souljah


To put it very briefly, Karma refers to the law of causality.

In other words, every effect has a cause. Sometimes the chain of causes and effects are so complicated, that is seems chaos-like.

So, if you do good in your life, you are more likely to receive good, and doing bad things will eventually bring about misfortune.

Instead of Karma, I rather use word causality, because it is less burdened by values and beliefs. But I think in the end, they are pretty much same.

Sometimes, especially in some new-age ideologies, Karma is considered to be both bad and good consequences, depending your actions. But (AFAIK) in fact traditional buddhism distincts between karma (negative effects) and dharma (positive effects). Yet I guess it's not important what you call them - both are causality.

Just my 300 coins

-v

reply to post by SolarE-Souljah


Hello SES. May Peace be upon you

Bob Marley was an inspiration. I too believe music is a tool that can be utilized. Bob Marley simply tried to spread good vibes, Peace, and Happiness. It's sad that the vast majority of music is used for negative influence and manipulation.

As you mentioned that we are walking energy beings, I'm in full agreement with that. Everything is energy. Simple as that. Pretty mind-boggling if you let your mind wander on the fact for too long.

I also believe in Karma. My experiences with it have made me certain that it is a functioning mechanism. I have my own understandings of Karma, but I'm interested in your understanding of it.

According to your understanding, karma is an energy force converted from an event that is stored within ourselves and released when the time is right? Would this make karma a thing, rather than a law or mechanism? When is the time right, who/what decides this? Or do you believe it to be random projection/manifestation?

You forgot the most famous karma saying!
"Your reap what you sow."

Karma is like everything else man Believes as a Concept.. a bit misunderstood and over-abundant in attributes.

For me it is simple a mechanical-like system which takes any input I create.. thought, word and action and begins a wave through awareness that eventually reaches it's own natural conclusion.

I do not perceive that conclusion to have a value of Good or Bad.. I only see it as a natural conclusion to what I instigated. To me all experiences are Valid in Life and Karma is not Good or Bad, is not a control mechanism although it may have been used that wasy in our misunderstanding of it, etc.

To me, this mechanical system reminds us to be aware of the choices we make with thought, action and word. And that in itself is only a part of Self Mastery anyway.

To elaborate on the OP:

Think of Karma as the infinity sign. When the event first occurs between two things, it is right in the middle. After this event, these two things shoot off into either side of the infinity sign.

After time goes by, when the time is right, these two things will once again meet in the middle, and that is one karmic cycle.

Hope that makes sense.

reply to post by v01i0

That was correct and very well explained. It deserves the stars it has received, including one from me.

I would add just one observation: for karma to operate properly, there must be reincarnation. A single lifetime isn't enough for all the consequences of one's own actions to have their effect.

This is important because it adds an element of faith to the concept of karma, making it a religious concept and distinguishing it from the purely philosophical one of causality.

reply to post by Astyanax


Reincarnation? Once we die, we will never born again same, or not even similar. The matter of our body is cast in the four winds, speaking allegorically. Parts of our matter may constitute another being, but that's all. Some people, when they speak of reincarnation, say that our soul transforms into this new incarnation. I don't think so. But I may be mistaken.

The only way I believe in reincarnation, is that my deceased body decomposes and nutrifies some other lifeforms, through which this matter is revived into new life.

-v

reply to post by v01i0


If I understand Astyanax correctly, I believe this scenario may help put his point across:

Some schools of thought don't believe that we possess a soul, more that our conciousness is a product of a cause and our thoughts and actions in each moment perpetuate our next moments of conciousness, ad infinitum. Death therefore isn't the end but just another series of moments.

There again I could be totally mistaken, its a huge topic in itself, but were discussing karma here.

reply to post by v01i0

Some people, when they speak of reincarnation, say that our soul transforms into this new incarnation. I don't think so. But I may be mistaken.

I agree with you, whether you're mistaken or not. But I think that 'soul-transformation' thing is necessary for karma to have the effects it is supposed to. If karma had only one life to operate in, I think it's safe to say that karma doesn't exist, because plenty of good and innocent people end up living miserable lives and dying miserable deaths, while the wicked prosper like the green bay tree.

Whats funny about Karma that apparently those fascinated with eastern thought dont bother paying attention to, is its implications.

In Jewish thought, its caled 'Middah Knegged Middah' (measure facing measure).

Forget about energy interaction. Youre describing how it probably works, not how it is... Theres a force, an intelligence which seeks to repay certain actions - in thought, speech and action, with an exact and equal response. Whatever you did, will come back to you.

if you think negatively, sure enough, the thought will come back to you.
If you speak negatively, or gossip, sure enough, you will be spoken about by others, and you will also have a reputation as a gossiper.

If you do something negative or evil, sure enough, whether in this life, the next world, or another life, what you did will be returned to you.

Its a simple law of causation, and the important implication of this concept is a moral one. There is a power - G-d, who desires that we act in proper and rigteous ways. If you like being happy, and living in peace, dont treat others in negative ways. Perpetuate the things you love and enjoy, and hate the things you do not. Therefore, what is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow.

Easterners may depersonalize it, but Jews see it for what it is. The master and king of the universe teaching his children whats good and righteous for them to pursue.

I also enjoy bob marleys music. He was a peace loving man.

Originally posted by v01i0
reply to post by Astyanax

 

Reincarnation? Once we die, we will never born again same, or not even similar. The matter of our body is cast in the four winds, speaking allegorically. Parts of our matter may constitute another being, but that's all. Some people, when they speak of reincarnation, say that our soul transforms into this new incarnation. I don't think so. But I may be mistaken.

The only way I believe in reincarnation, is that my deceased body decomposes and nutrifies some other lifeforms, through which this matter is revived into new life.

-v

No.. You literally reincarnate as a new person

granted, what you said is partly true. Some people are punished by having parts of them incarnated into certain levels of creation. An animalistic person, will incarnate into an animal of whatever nature appropriate for it. A lazy person will have his life force invested in a rock, or sme level of innanimate matter.

In kabbalistic thought, reincarnation occurs for the sake of Tikkun - rectification of the soul. The entire soul does not reinarnate. only parts which need correction. Youre invested into a family which will meet your spiitual needs, and the ego you will be given will be entriely new.

The period in between death and reincarnation is a state of unconsciousness. Its hard to describe because while in this world, the other world will be impossoble to properly explain. But the good deeds of ones former life act as a garment for the soul; in other words, the consciousness takes plaueasre in the unity affirming action, thought and speech he did while alive. Conversely, an evil person will feel the enormous pain and shame of having broken creation, and lived outside of it. this casn be experienced as a nothingness, and void in self. or an intense awareness of brokenness, and a shame for actions were committed while alive.

Theres a whole process to go through before one enters the round of another incarnation in this realm.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by v01i0

 

Some people, when they speak of reincarnation, say that our soul transforms into this new incarnation. I don't think so. But I may be mistaken.

I agree with you, whether you're mistaken or not. But I think that 'soul-transformation' thing is necessary for karma to have the effects it is supposed to. If karma had only one life to operate in, I think it's safe to say that karma doesn't exist, because plenty of good and innocent people end up living miserable lives and dying miserable deaths, while the wicked prosper like the green bay tree.

Ive had it explained to me ike this. and its a beuatiful analogy

there are two world. This one and the next. those with a majority goodd deeds, get repaid in the next world, where the pleasure and joy is much greater. Those with a majority evil deeds, get paid for their little good in this world.

Its sort of like a massive Tree. The root of the tree of a good person is in a holy garden. But branches overlook an evil garden. So, the branches are pruned while alive, so he can enjoy the entire good when he dies (which paradoxically, is where hes most alive). An evil person has the complete opposite situation. His root is in an evil garden with a few branches hanging over into the holy garden. He gets rewarded for those 'few branches' while alive.

This way everyone gets repaid. Those who are spiritually focused, and who live righteous lives, will recieve their reward in a spiritual dimension. The evil who are physically focused, get their reward on their own terms; in a physical context. while their afterlife is pure hell.

In the messianic age, when this world enters the spiritual worlds, good and evil will be meted out Here. The good will be rewarded for their good, and the evil for their evil.

Originally posted by Astyanax
I agree with you, whether you're mistaken or not.

To be honest, I don't know either whether I am right or wrong - how could I? This is just what makes most sense to myself.

Originally posted by Astyanax
If karma had only one life to operate in, I think it's safe to say that karma doesn't exist, because plenty of good and innocent people end up living miserable lives and dying miserable deaths, while the wicked prosper like the green bay tree.

Yeah, this puzzles me also. Then I have thought that the causality is so complicated thing, chaos-like system, that to understand it mortal knowledge is insufficient. I am not even sure, whether we can valuate good and evil except from human viewpoint.

-v

One problem with a belief in Karma is that it can lead people to a very judgemental point of view.

Running a seva (community service) group years ago, I found a group of Chinese Buddhists was quite intolerant of what we were doing, saying we were preventing poor people from learning from their punishment if we alleviated it.

My answer was that they just might need to do some acts of charity for their own sakes, and that if they didn't, I'd appreciate them helping me do some for mine.

However this was just a small group. Most of those in the group who believed in karma joined in and helped just because they hated to see people suffering.

Originally posted by dontreally

No.. You literally reincarnate as a new person

First, thank you for your thoughts, they were interesting.

It might be that my understanding is completely wrong or right, or something between. That said, I read your thoughts with great curiosity. However, whatever Qabalah or some other dogma says, we really cannot say much without a personal experience (oh, how often I have to say this).

It may as well be, that human soul reincarnates always to a human being because of some law. I may think - in the terms of computer science - that the program which is somekind of human archetype, has somekind of flag or other variable that is only compatible with this kind of "hardware".

Nonetheless, so far it seems to me that matter of my body may continue it's life in some other forms as well. I guess I am tad bit of materialist. But as the proverb in my signature says, I know that I know nothing.

-v

Originally posted by v01i0

Originally posted by dontreally

No.. You literally reincarnate as a new person

First, thank you for your thoughts, they were interesting.

It might be that my understanding is completely wrong or right, or something between. That said, I read your thoughts with great curiosity. However, whatever Qabalah or some other dogma says, we really cannot say much without a personal experience (oh, how often I have to say this).

It may as well be, that human soul reincarnates always to a human being because of some law. I may think - in the terms of computer science - that the program which is somekind of human archetype, has somekind of flag or other variable that is only compatible with this kind of "hardware".

Nonetheless, so far it seems to me that matter of my body may continue it's life in some other forms as well. I guess I am tad bit of materialist. But as the proverb in my signature says, I know that I know nothing.

-v

Well, theres always a degree of faith in metaphysical subjects. They appear true, because they are so logical. And we believe G-d or 'the universe' puts these hints in physical creation to allude to their spiritual root.

Like, this idea that i gave is a lurianic one, and it is perhaps the most complicated system of reincarnation there is. The 3 parts of the soul, Neshama, Ruach and Nefesh, each have a role to play. When one part is complete and rectified, it remains 'above'. When one reincarnates, only the level of soul which needs correction enters a body, and thus an ego. This particular level of soul has its own Neshama, ruach and Nefesh with its array of 10 sefirot. If one manages to make great strides in this incarnation, a higher level of soul descends and impregnates consciousness. In some instances, another soul can impregnate and share the same vehicle, and thus add a dimension of consciousness to the person to help him affect his tikkun.

I cant say that i understand it, cause im not a kabbalist. And much of the lurianic kabbalah like all mysticisms, can only be understood when one experiences the subtlities of the things being refered to. So, i take it on trust, mainly.

Like its hard to explain when the kabbalists say that ones evil deeds which become apart of ones very fabric of consciousness (or, said differently, are stored in his personal unconscious, which in anycase is apart of him) become invested in some physical matter when you die. In other words, physically, his life force is in the matter. Spiritually, he experiences his punishment through this investment. And there are myriads of parts of the self which have to be burned away before the soul can ascend and experience the pleasure and peace of Gan Eden (garden of eden).

I know alot about these things in theory, but almost nothing in practice. And thats the tricky part. You trust those who have experienced these things in practice and take their word for it.

reply to post by v01i0

Then I have thought that the causality is so complicated thing, chaos-like system, that to understand it mortal knowledge is insufficient.

The Buddha is reported to have said the same thing, except that he didn't say 'mortal'. He just said no-one could understand how it worked.

According to Buddhist ideas, even the gods are subject to karma. Just as the ancient Greeks believed the gods, like men, were subject to necessity. Necessity is a pretty good word for karma.

*

reply to post by dontreally

In Jewish thought, its caled 'Middah Knegged Middah' (measure facing measure).

Pardon me for contradicting you, but I don't think karma is what you are describing. Karma isn't open to manipulation by gods or anyone else; nor is there any divine Operator who makes karmic consequences happen: they are automatic.

One can only affect one's karma through action, and even then the consequences are largely unforseeable. This applies (see above) to gods and other nonmaterial beings just as it does to humans--indeed, it applies to all living things.