Authoritarianism/"Guided Democracy": Answer for the US?

When I was at university (in the dark ages), noted intellectual B.F. Skinner wrote "Beyond Freedom and Dignity", a treatise on the necessity of governing massive populations in the future. Naturally, all of us young Trotskyists verbally crucified his ideas, and the author himself, in the normal Leftist manner. What I am about to propose is somewhat of a reflection of Skinner, and will no doubt cause 90% of ATSers, especially those on the European left and America's Paulista right to reply venomously.

Soon, the US will realize what Russia figured out in the late 1980's - a leader is preferable to a gaggle of theorists and social experimenters with their collective following of hangers-on, addicted to having their basic needs met by the state, but hating its institutions all the same. The "liberal" interpretation of the constitution and bill of rights is no longer able give guidance to the body politic. The left sees an unending pot of gold in the "producing" class, unable to see a time when the producers, fed up with being robbed, and going to turn on the tax collectors like a hungry Hyena. The right, clinging to nineteenth-century libertarianism, live in an alternate universe somewhere between "Bonanza" and "Little House on the Prairie". The left refuses acknowledge that government cannot produce wealth just as the right refuses to admit that a consumer-driven market system certainly does not have the majority's best interest at heart and cannot provide needs it would be totally immoral to profit from.

As economic conditions get worse (and they will), American citizens will have less and less faith in the "system", and see both major parties as relics of a bygone era, which of course they are. Eventually we will find our Putin or our Franco, at the cost of those who are stuck in the past. Since everything is cyclical, it won't last forever, but it's needed now!

Originally posted by taskforce4256

As economic conditions get worse (and they will), American citizens will have less and less faith in the "system", and see both major parties as relics of a bygone era, which of course they are. Eventually we will find our Putin or our Franco, at the cost of those who are stuck in the past. Since everything is cyclical, it won't last forever, but it's needed now!

Unfortunately I must agree with you. Such a "leader" will arise. He will be very charismatic and will rule with an iron fist. He will control, or attempt to control absolutely every aspect of our lives. He will promise ever lasting peace and plenty for all. He will be a liar.

Hello??? Is there anyone alive in your heads... just look.. there are these guys, called the gouvernment, let's say that would be hundred people, who try to elect a "leader"
On the other side, there are millions of people, who don't want that to happen... ahh well...as viewed from this perspective, these hundred people must be the manifestation of hell, with all demons and magical powers, or why wouldn't you show some cohones and just say no, instead of obeying and letting it happen. You people would all deserve what is happening. NOBODY CAN BE SO BLIND AND DUMB...
what when they do this and this
we wouldn't let them do this...
I can't see a problem. Or do you think they'll throw atom bombs on civilians in their own country... come on, man..... use ur brains.. it won't ache

The final result of an advanced society will be socialism or chaos.

Thats the only two outcomes...star trek, or mad max..and nothing said will matter. like a raindrop arguing which form to take, liquid or snowflake solid...the end result will be it splats on the ground somewhere no matter how much it resists.

I prefer living in a star trek universe verses a mad max wasteland personally.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
The final result of an advanced society will be socialism or chaos.
I prefer living in a star trek universe verses a mad max wasteland personally.

Yet I consider mad max the more likely of the two.

Originally posted by Mokahz
Hello??? Is there anyone alive in your heads... just look.. there are these guys, called the gouvernment, let's say that would be hundred people, who try to elect a "leader"
On the other side, there are millions of people, who don't want that to happen... ahh well...as viewed from this perspective, these hundred people must be the manifestation of hell, with all demons and magical powers, or why wouldn't you show some cohones and just say no, instead of obeying and letting it happen. You people would all deserve what is happening. NOBODY CAN BE SO BLIND AND DUMB...
what when they do this and this
we wouldn't let them do this...
I can't see a problem. Or do you think they'll throw atom bombs on civilians in their own country... come on, man..... use ur brains.. it won't ache

1. The vast majority of the "millions of people" you speak of don't give a damn, or don't know anything more than they have to work longer for a "big screen TV". Obviously you spend far too much time on ATS and not enough time talking to your fellow citizens.

2. Most of those same "millions" don't know which end of the tube the round comes out of. The leaders people do and are not afraid to fire on civilians.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by SaturnFX
The final result of an advanced society will be socialism or chaos.
I prefer living in a star trek universe verses a mad max wasteland personally.

Yet I consider mad max the more likely of the two.

Well, my paranoid and cynical nature agree's with you, however 51% of my outlook is a optimist, so I am leaning ever so slightly towards star trek...however, before that, I expect a crapload of variations..a desperate clawing attempt to keep mob rule democracy aspects.

Once technology allows for a positive socialism however (key factor will be matter replication to eliminate resource needs), then I think a race to that will occur.

Right now, we simply lack the scientific advancements to have anything effective. for now, a democratic republic with some socialist programs is about as good as it can get.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
The final result of an advanced society will be socialism or chaos.

Thats the only two outcomes...star trek, or mad max..and nothing said will matter. like a raindrop arguing which form to take, liquid or snowflake solid...the end result will be it splats on the ground somewhere no matter how much it resists.

I prefer living in a star trek universe verses a mad max wasteland personally.

This was a great analogy re precipitation...

thanks

Having read a bit about B.F. Skinner and a couple of his works, it seems I must respond to this thread. For the record, I have never actually read Beyond, but I have read Walden Two for a psych project a few years back (after delving into Law of Effects, and John Watson, etc).

I think I am going to delve very briefly into a bit of the Economics and History of such claims that Skinner has made.

Econ-

John Maynard Keynes himself said that central planning would be much easier to achieve without the bogging down of an aristocracy or politicians.
As much as you can plan an economy, create the carrot and the stick mentality, it can only work if all outcomes are predetermined and predicted.

I have two major problems with this.

In order to work, the outcome must be predicted. As much as the future can be predicted, there are huge levels of unknown. We cannot even perceive how the world would work in 100 years, unless we intentionally stunted technological growth. This goes into direct conflict with what Skinner says in his ideas of technological revolution. Even if certain aspects of technology can be orchastrated and guided toward the future, this would mean that the technological revolutions that could (and easily would) exist in black markets and grey markets would have to be suppressed. I see a scenario like this occuring.... The technocracy inches technology forward, while a seperate, illegal, and further advaced group acts in parallel creating technologies beyond the wildest dreams of the technocrats. The technocrats would render themselves irrelevant.

The other problem lies in the Dignity. If people are coached and coerced or 'pushed' into creating, and producing.... who does the pushing? If no one is to have credit for thier actions, certainly some unknown group of humans are responsible for the guidance. We must not forget that humans are humans, no matter how wise, or how many PHD's they have. You can't expect a group of people to be enlightened enough to guide others selflessly.

The problems lies with this idea is that, the central planner must be correct, and cannot be self-serving. The 20th and early part of the 21st century is a testament to how even these post-theocratic ideas won't work. The experiments have thus far failed.... mostof which, horrifically.

I hope this dicussion will expand.

My two basic premises to opposing Skinner:
1: The impossibility of accurately predicting the future, even while closely controlling it and....
2: The arragance of someone who thinks they can perform '1' while at the same time maintaining a level of objectivity.

reply to post by SaturnFX

Actually there is another outcome (longer term) according to globalist, H.G. Wells, author of The Time Machine,....a planet inhabited by the Eloi and Morlocks!!

Socialism can't work if resources are scarce for number of obvious reasons.

It would be nice if it did work, because then we could all live happily ever after getting our food from replicators while banging the hottest teens on the holodeck.

Of course, real life is not a science fiction novel. Resources are scarce. Goods take effort and time to produce. Robots can only help us make more, they can't make new things all on their own.

Mises proved that socialism as an economic system can not work due to the economic calculation problem.

It is literally impossible for it to work at the level of a State centrally planned and owned system.

It can not work.

There is only one system that works, freedom.

reply to post by mnemeth1

There is only one system that works, freedom.

I would rather say that freedom (and systems solely deriving through free actions, and associations) is the only thing that implicitely doesn't fail.