Tackling a Popular New Age Belief

OK, this is my first thread - this idea is somewhere between philosophy and religion, so if this is in the wrong place, sorry. In my experience, the line between the two can be awfully blurry at times.

I have become aware in the past few years of a popular New Age belief that between incarnations, we plan out our future life down to the last moment. Here are my questions.

First off, how can one possibly be aware of this when our 5 senses are human-body-specific, and it is exceedingly unlikely that memories from the spirit realm would translate well into our 5 senses?

Second, if this were absolutely true, wouldn't most of us here have looked down upon the world as it is today and planned out a life in which we deliver the world from suffering and the tyranny and that currently rules it? Surely the grand conspiracy we are all so fond of discussing on this forum doesn't extend into the spirit realms. If it does, we're all definitely screwed.

Third, for those who claim to have memories of past lives and the time in between, how do you know for certain that you don't just have a really vivid imagination and are tapping into your own creative source?

Finally, for the sake of knowledge, does anyone know exactly where and when this particular belief related to reincarnation came about?

Looking forward to a thought-provoking discussion,

-ss

Originally posted by smokinsingerThird, for those who claim to have memories of past lives...how do you know for certain that you don't just have a really vivid imagination and are tapping into your own creative source?

Because the word "memory" is not precisely accurate.

Have you ever read about the open skull experiments where a neurologist touches an electrode upon a particular place in a person's brain and the person then reports a specific memory not as a memory at all, but as an actual re-enactment in real time of the original experience?

This is similar to the 'memories' of previous lives.

The experiences of those previous lives are re-experienced as they were first experienced; that is, in real time.

There is no sensation of these things having happened in the past at all. This is the direct experience of a non-temporal consciousness. Only when one is back into the consciousness of the "self" and the 'thinker' in this life is it understood that those things happened in the past. And 'memories' from thousands of years ago are sensed as being no different than memories of hundreds of years ago. Time is irrelevant to such experiences.

It is as if that experience itself is brought forward in time and imposed upon the neurology of the brain in this present life.

It would be like not remembering what you had for supper last night; but sitting down, again, for the first time at the table and eating again, for the first time, what you had for supper last night.

Mi cha el

reply to post by Michael Cecil


Not sure regarding the memories issue, simply because installing memories under the appropriate conditions is nothing new. Provoking mass thought induced symptoms to particular words,colors,odors is also a common practice.

Trigger phrases,
Trigger colors
Trigger odors
Trigger images.

All of the above is what is being used this very second. To give yourself a simple test and view your own thought patterns is to try the following.

Avoid at all costs watching television. (No exceptions)
Avoid at all costs listening to the radio. ( No exceptions)
Avoid all outdoor ads. (No exceptions)

By now your beginning to see the almost impossible task and how effective the above three are in altering your mood and thoughts without the need to be physically in any country.

Humans are so predictable.

Originally posted by tristar Not sure regarding the memories issue, simply because installing memories under the appropriate conditions is nothing new. Provoking mass thought induced symptoms to particular words,colors,odors is also a common practice.

Trigger phrases,
Trigger colors
Trigger odors
Trigger images.

All of the above is what is being used this very second. To give yourself a simple test and view your own thought patterns is to try the following.

Avoid at all costs watching television. (No exceptions)
Avoid at all costs listening to the radio. ( No exceptions)
Avoid all outdoor ads. (No exceptions)

Really don't understand the point you are making here; but the very first memory I received of a previous life occurred when I had no time to listen to the radio or watch TV at all. And the information I received from that memory was of such minute and specific detail with regards to a very specific relationship with a particular person that it could not possibly have originated in any "outdoor ads", of which I would not have seen too many anyway.

On the other hand, there are triggering events, triggering emotions, and triggering words that are often associated with memories of previous lives; although I demur at using such rigid terms as "cause and effect".

Mi cha el

reply to post by Michael Cecil


Implanting memories/actions-reactions is done prior to the age of 10. It usually starts before the first years of schooling. Cartoons, vivid colors, loud acoustics synchronized to stimulating colors along with images is the most proven method even to a grown up as a successful method of thought control.

reply to post by smokinsinger


you might want to look into 'Scientology'... they have a storehouse of information on memories...
there's such things as Engrams and Clarity and other aspects of the larger consciousness

& no, i'm not a follower, i'm just pointing out a cache' of thoughts on the subject

Originally posted by tristar Cartoons, vivid colors, loud acoustics synchronized to stimulating colors along with images is the most proven method even to a grown up as a successful method of thought control.

Which might be relevant if memories of previous lives were thoughts.

But they are not thoughts.

They are experiences.

Mi cha el

Originally posted by Michael Cecil

Originally posted by tristar Cartoons, vivid colors, loud acoustics synchronized to stimulating colors along with images is the most proven method even to a grown up as a successful method of thought control.

Which might be relevant if memories of previous lives were thoughts.

But they are not thoughts.

They are experiences.

Mi cha el

Lets point to the obvious here and perhaps you might want to place yourself into one and then re assess the theory the past.

Inductive reasoning
Deductive reasoning
Predicate thinking
Overgeneralization
False analogy
Appeal to authority
Arguing in circles
Attack on character

reply to post by Michael Cecil


I have read about these experiments - to me, they suggest that since memories, thoughts, and sensations reside in certain parts of the brain, they can be falsely created by stimulating these parts of the brain. This is one potential problem I see with using hypnotic regression (which seems to be the most common method of regaining past life memories) to re-obtain memories that have been lost, because as I understand it, it is impossible to tell what effects hypnosis itself has on the brain or if subtle external stimuli might interfere with the brain while one is under hypnosis, thereby creating false memories / thoughts that never actually existed. This may also be seen as a potential issue or even a total debunk of alien abduction memories which were regained through hypnosis (as I assume most are).

The only thing that, to me, might suggest that past life memories are truly valid is if someone comes out of the memory with some knowledge (possibly of some historical event) they couldn't possibly have known beforehand which can be researched and proven to be true. It also must be proven that they had never heard / seen / experienced that knowledge within this lifetime. Can you see where the difficulty in proving these things for certain arises?? They may have heard it or seen it in a documentary or from their great grandfather and simply forgot that they ever knew. If there is a way to prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt, I would very much like to know what it is or if anyone has successfully proven it.

There are many similarities however between some of the longer NDE's and these past life regression hypnotisms. And then of course there are the cases of children knowing specific details about a past life ie: people, places and things they could not have accessed during their present life. Some of the most interesting ideas in this area I discovered from reading "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot. It would be nice, however, if these higher beings and whatnot could just give us the blueprint for living a happy life, and a fruitful one, and if such things could become part of our education from the earliest age.

There are two things I think that form the root causes of suffering in our world. A breakdown in love, and poor education.

P.S. I am considering a future-life run for the position of President of the United States..

reply to post by smokinsinger


Hi smokin, and welcome.

You are so right. We cannot plan the route of our lives.

That is not for us to do.

We are left to the whims of anything and everything.

Originally posted by smokinsinger
reply to post by Michael Cecil

 

I have read about these experiments - to me, they suggest that since memories, thoughts, and sensations reside in certain parts of the brain, they can be falsely created by stimulating these parts of the brain. This is one potential problem I see with using hypnotic regression (which seems to be the most common method of regaining past life memories)

I fully agree.

Hypnotic regression to memories of previous lives is fraught with error; to the point where it is simply not possible to differentiate the consciousness of the one who is hypnotized from the one who does the hypnotizing. Although there may very well be 'some' reality to such memories, it is the memories which are not in any way contrived, the memories which simply emerge out of the context of an individual's experience that can be relied upon as being authentic.

to re-obtain memories that have been lost, because as I understand it, it is impossible to tell what effects hypnosis itself has on the brain or if subtle external stimuli might interfere with the brain while one is under hypnosis, thereby creating false memories / thoughts that never actually existed.

Precisely.

The only thing that, to me, might suggest that past life memories are truly valid is if someone comes out of the memory with some knowledge (possibly of some historical event) they couldn't possibly have known beforehand which can be researched and proven to be true. It also must be proven that they had never heard / seen / experienced that knowledge within this lifetime.

The problem here, Sir, is that you are applying the rules of one "frame of reference" in terms of consciousness to another "frame of reference" of consciousness where they do not apply.

What you are talking about here is logical truth and evidence which is the bailiwick of the consciousness of the 'thinker'.This is how the 'thinker' determines what truth is...but only for that dimension of consciousness.

And there are easily dozens or hundreds of other things which cannot be 'proven' which a person accepts as reality.

You cannot prove that you are in love or that someone loves you. You cannot prove that Beethoven or Mozart wrote good music. You cannot prove that you like one kind of wine more than another or blondes more than brunettes.

Nothing in poetry can be proven; the lyrics of songs are not proven.

Because none of that occurs within the "frame of reference"--or is subject to the rules of evidence and proof--of the consciousness of the 'thinker'.

A person who has received memories of previous lives does not have to 'prove' that those memories are real to anyone else. If they experience them as real, that is their reality. So, then, the question comes down to "Who or what would a person have to be to be able to deny and contradict another person's internal experiences of reality?"

And that person would have to be either God or Omniscient. Not an easy thing to prove.

Can you see where the difficulty in proving these things for certain arises?? They may have heard it or seen it in a documentary or from their great grandfather and simply forgot that they ever knew. If there is a way to prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt, I would very much like to know what it is or if anyone has successfully proven it.

Can you see why someone who has received memories of previous lives does not particularly care whether you believe him or her in the first place?

I have met a number of people in this life that I knew in previous lives. Those memories emerged out of the immediate circumstances of this life. They are both authentic and information-rich; conveying information which I could not possibly have known in any other way. Is that information historical? Of course it is. But not something that is written about in history. In other words, it is "personally historical" information....Unless you want to say that there is no such thing as people in the first place and that the only history there is is the history that is written down and generally accepted as history.

Mi cha el

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Yes, I have no doubt that strange phenomena like NDE's and the children you mentioned do exist - none of us can explain everything. I'm not quite sure what I believe. I can see the organized beauty of the universe and highly doubt it came about by chance, and I am for that reason convinced that there is something after death - a place for consciousness outside the physical universe. I'm simply discussing the difficulty in proving such things as past lives, specifically the notion that we plan out our lives before we are born. It's something I've never experienced firsthand, so it's good to get the perspective of others on such things before I blindly form beliefs.

As for your aspiration to be President in a future life, be careful what you wish for. It's likely that a life as Pres. would create a lot of bad karma considering what he represents, as I'm sure many on this site would agree : )

Originally posted by smokinsinger I'm simply discussing the difficulty in proving such things as past lives, specifically the notion that we plan out our lives before we are born.

What I have direct knowledge of is memories of previous lives.

I have no knowledge whatsoever that I have, in any way, planned out this life.

My experiences are far beyond my control.

I have many, many indications and overwhelming amounts of evidence that this life has been planned; but is is certainly not me Who has done this planning.

Mi cha el

reply to post by smokinsinger


My reason for "wanting" to be POTUS isn't because I crave power or really WANT that, but instead because of my love for people and humanity and the complete vacuum of leadership.

Either that or a concert painist, quantum physicist and theologian able to write and speak intelligably about the new science in such a way that people are re-enchanted with the world, and understand their true place as co-creators with God, or an anti-Stephen Hawking of sorts, preferably without the disability.

Point being, if this before and after and before is true, then even now we are creating the dynamics for our next life, and even if we reach full enlightenment, we're not about to abdandon this world and our fellow man until the world is re-created in a much much better configuration.

If I'm here to help out in some way, I would like to make a difference and keep on coming back as many times as are neccessary, but I'm asking God for a tour of the universe next time, in between lives, as I just want to see what other Civilizations look like who've transcended or ascended already and reside in "heaven" or the place of no sin.

After all, anything IS at least POSSIBLE..

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
I have met a number of people in this life that I knew in previous lives. Those memories emerged out of the immediate circumstances of this life. They are both authentic and information-rich; conveying information which I could not possibly have known in any other way. Is that information historical? Of course it is. But not something that is written about in history. In other words, it is "personally historical" information....Unless you want to say that there is no such thing as people in the first place and that the only history there is is the history that is written down and generally accepted as history.

That sounds to me like a valid argument, and exactly the sort of proof I'm talking about - irrefutable, undeniable truth. If you cannot imagine any other explanation for your experience, and you also intuitively feel it to be true, then you're probably onto something. I didn't mean to sound like I was trying to debunk or make fun of your beliefs and experiences - I'm simply the kind of person who looks at things very analytically, and I look for real, provable fact in everything. One of the reasons I came to this site in the first place is that I don't blindly believe everything I hear / see / read. Definitely not much of what's in our recorded history

If I had a spontaneous OBE into the past and later connected with someone who remembered exactly the same things I did, I would be absolutely thrilled to have finally discovered this truth for myself. It might even happen to me someday. Who knows?

reply to post by smokinsinger


Yes, your first 5 senses are "human-body-specific" but you also have the sixth sense. If you want to see the unseen, you have to open your third eye. The pineal gland is what I understand to be the source or the location of your third eye.

To answer your second question, the reason we come is to experience. As I understand it, on the other side we are and feel invincible. Also, when we make those choices, they are not complete. For example, you might choose to get a bad cold when you are 10 years old, but you do not choose whether you will lay down and die from the sickness or you will be a fighter of the sickness, that part is an earthbound choice. You choose the circumstance, but not the outcome of that choice. That is how you learn.

Third, those that claim to have past life memories can be very specific and can pinpoint places during that point time that would be impossible to have done without being there. They know specifics such as addresses, dates, events etc.. that allow us to verify they were actually there. Some say that if you have a strong feeling towards say, Asian culture or architecture or music, this means you may have once had a past life as an Asian architect or artist.

I don't know where the idea or concept originated, but it would be interesting to know. All I know is it is real, because I feel it. I've dreamed of things that seemingly relate to past events and I just know.

If you try, you can feel it. I used the Asian example, because I have a very powerful interest in Asian artifacts. I have never known why, I just really feel a connection to authentic Asian art, architecture and many Asian philosophy. I was curious and sought an answer and was ultimately told by a psychic that I was a Mongolian Princess in a past life. Then, all of my strong feelings made sense.

Hope this helps you to understand. We as earthbound humans will never completely understand until we die. And I'm not going to rush that.

Originally posted by smokinsinger If I had a spontaneous OBE into the past and later connected with someone who remembered exactly the same things I did, I would be absolutely thrilled to have finally discovered this truth for myself. It might even happen to me someday. Who knows?

Don't know where you got the idea of an "OBE into the past".

This is not at all what the experience is like. It is more like the neurology of that previous life is actually imprinted on the current neurology. It is not any vision; it is not experienced as merely a thought. It is re-experienced for the first time, just like it was experienced hundreds or thousands of years before.

Neither is it in any way necessary to meet someone who "remembered exactly the same things I did".

That is not even possible in the first place.

These experiences are at the level of neurology; the sensations, perceptions, emotions and thoughts that a person was experiencing. Even if that experience was shared with another person, that person would experience it from their own perspective of internal experiences.

In other words, a person cannot rely upon even another's experience of the memories of previous lives to validate their own memories of those same previous lives.

Mi cha el

Having come into this life with pre-life memory, I can say that not every passing between life allows the previous personality to pick and choose a life. In my case, it was another being that directed me to this life with little time to look ahead and plan so to speak.

However in examining this local through consciousness during sleep, I have observed the other side where some people, even in groups plan a next life. Much of these observations parallel what one would expect from a fully subversive virtual reality role-playing game where before we lock in; we pick a character type and define all it's attributes. Forget and engage the VR game as that new avatar.

This non-physical local exists, and I have observed myself projecting from "there" into "here" which in of itself is a very interesting observation. We have some type of dualism between a physical and non-physical reality as a consciousness.

It's bitter sweet I suppose. At least there is some type of continuum of the self.

Originally posted by YouAreDreaming We have some type of dualism between a physical and non-physical reality as a consciousness. It's bitter sweet I suppose. At least there is some type of continuum of the self...

I would suggest that the dualism is between the non-dualistic consciousness and the dualistic consciousness of the "self" and the 'thinker'.

In the non-dualistic consciousness there is not yet any differentiation at all into separate "selves" of any kind.

Then, with the 'movement' of self-reflection occurs 'the fall' into the dualistic consciousness.

Thus, "continuum of self" implies time and time implies thought; whereas the "self" is a 'spatiality' of consciousness desribed as the "self"/"not self".

Neither one of which exists until after the differentiation created by the 'movement' of self-reflection.

Mi cha el