tsa patdowns, what is the big deal.................really?

Originally posted by PayMeh
reply to post by rubbertramp

 

And at what point do you see this being a good thing? You're OK with being patted down before you can go watch a Dallas/Redskins game? C'mon.

It's not in line with police procedures because for one - if you are pulled over they have to have a reason. For second, to be patted down and detained from said traffic stop they have to have probable cause. I have no problem agreeing to this because I understand the inherent risk an officer takes while searching your car at 3am on a gravel country road where it's just you and him.

The TSA has neither the probable cause, nor the level of risk that officers take. Furthermore, the police pat downs are not even in the same ballpark as these searches.

again, probable cause can just be an officer saying,' i smell weed' or anything similar.
'i'm sure i saw..........whatever.
and you get me wrong, i do have a problem with all of it, always have.
my point of this op is the similarities in the way a citizen can now be searched by the tsa.
what's not at all similar in the searches?

Originally posted by rubbertramp
reply to post by Blarneystoner

 

i do get your point, but no where in the op did i mention arrest.
it was about 'pat downs' being similar to those used by law enforcement.

Agreed, you never mentioned arrests... however... LEOs only perform pat downs after the arrest has been made. Forgive me if that's innaccurate but it seems to be a crucial point of contention here.

Originally posted by PayMeh
you are pulled over they have to have a reason.

Actually, cops do pull random people over...especially during offical traffic stops (dui sting). they have to advertise it in the paper beforehand though, so the information is out there when and where they will do it beforehand, that covers their angle..

reply to post by Blarneystoner


Detainment = pat-down

Arrest or Warrant = search

reply to post by Blarneystoner


not true, go back a page to where i linked to the aclu site.
pat downs are fair game before arrest.
now, whether or not a cop touches your junk is the issue.
some here say no way, never, yet i have had it done personally numorous times.

Originally posted by rubbertramp
reply to post by Blarneystoner

 

not true, go back a page to where i linked to the aclu site.
pat downs are fair game before arrest.
now, whether or not a cop touches your junk is the issue.
some here say no way, never, yet i have had it done personally numorous times.

You have the right to refuse a search of your person and property (your car) if you're not under arrest... I think that's the difference.

ACLU article; Know your rights...

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by PayMeh
you are pulled over they have to have a reason.

Actually, cops do pull random people over...especially during offical traffic stops (dui sting). they have to advertise it in the paper beforehand though, so the information is out there when and where they will do it beforehand, that covers their angle..

That's a whole other constitutionality can of worms covered by threads already. Generally though, the checkpoints just let you go on your way if there are no outstanding warrants/tickets/strong smell of alcohol. Now if the TSA wants to adopt the same policy then I don't have an issue. Patting down 6 year old blond haired blue eyed kids is absurd. That's like placing your kid in handcuffs during a traffic stop to make sure he's not concealing a Glock in his diaper.

reply to post by purplemer


And Im getting "bored" of people who are so willing to go belly-up when an authority figure tells them they should. If we had more people like you around we might be living in "1984" by now.

MOTF!

Originally posted by rubbertramp
reply to post by Blarneystoner

 

not true, go back a page to where i linked to the aclu site.
pat downs are fair game before arrest.
now, whether or not a cop touches your junk is the issue.
some here say no way, never, yet i have had it done personally numorous times.

Patdowns are meant for officers safety out in the field in uncontrolled environments. That is it's purpose and goal. It was not implemented as a means of discovery like the TSA is using it for.

The current TSA policy is no different than the illegal and unconstitutional Stop and Frisk Policy currently being employed by the New York City Police Department. Obviously, the ultimate purpose here is to condition the public to feel like criminals, so they do not have a problem with being treated like criminals 24/7. Sort of like what the Nazis were doing in the 1930's.

And I'm sure there were the same kind of apologists who were defending the Nazis back then that are defending the TSA and the NYPD today. Not to difficult to see where this is headed, since we all know how the Nazi policies played out. Here, have a look:

newsfornatives.com...

Originally posted by PayMeh

Originally posted by rubbertramp
reply to post by Blarneystoner

 

not true, go back a page to where i linked to the aclu site.
pat downs are fair game before arrest.
now, whether or not a cop touches your junk is the issue.
some here say no way, never, yet i have had it done personally numorous times.

Patdowns are meant for officers safety out in the field in uncontrolled environments. That is it's purpose and goal. It was not implemented as a means of discovery like the TSA is using it for.

Sounds like that's a violation of constitutional rights... I wonder if any illegal contraband discovered by means of a pre-arrest "pat down" is admissable in court? Doubt it... but I would be willing to bet it depends on who your lawyer is.

reply to post by Blarneystoner


yes, of course, i already addressed this issue.
kinda' like the x-officer who says he's never touched anyones junk in a patdown.
so, can anyone link me to where the tsa says in a manual that they should finger woman and grope men as a procedural event?

Originally posted by purplemer
Well, well said..
Really what is the big deal people someone touches your pennis or something. Cmon get over it, its an appendage that hangs from your body. It seems people just want something to whinge about. If is not like OMG someone has touched my pennis its like OMG the worlds going to end.. Sort your heads out plz..x

Jeezus keerist: we've all been touched ( doctors);looked at nekkid by strangers (lockerroom) that should be evidence enough this is not just about "being touched by strangers"Still some people may be uncomfortable at having their "pennis" touched or even their "penis"...

These over authoritative mall cops have no power to arbitrarily make your Pat down as humiliating as possible because you object to their machine; and that goes all the way to the to top ( Napolitano). The govt can't enforce a law by breaking a law.
Even sworn law officers are not supposed to judge you and administer punishment. TSA is trying to mold behavior. we see that more and more with the federalization and militarization of local police forces. An obvious program of beating down the citizenry. We citizens should take every opportunity to call them on it when they overstep as you did waiting for the "supervisor"on the side of the road. I commend you for that.

reply to post by rubbertramp


Where are all those tea party patriots? Where are the defenders of the Constitution now?
Regardless of the risk, injury and accidental deaths due to firearms each year, you don't see anyone taking our 2nd amendment right to bear arms away do you? Washington D.C. couldn't do it.
The Supreme Court determined it was unconstitutional.
www.washingtonpost.com...

The Supreme Court announced yesterday that it will determine whether the District of Columbia's strict firearms law violates the Constitution,.

NYC Mayor Bloomberg couldn't even pass a law preventing suspected terrorists on an FBI watch list from purchasing a gun in the U.S. because (risky or not) it is a violation of our 2nd Amendment rights.
You cannot, under any circumstances, deny Americans their Constitutional Rights!!!

www.newsweek.com...#

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg and NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly went to Capitol Hill earlier this week in an attempt to convince legislators to pass a bill designed to prevent people on the FBI's (terror watch) list from legally purchasing guns and explosives.

Andrew Arulanandam, a spokesman for the (NRA), told NEWSWEEK the bill is "21st-century McCarthyism." "Our system of justice doesn't say that secret lists can be judge and jury when it comes to denying Americans their constitutional rights,"

Here is even an attorney to assist if you feel your second amendments rights have been trampled. www.self-defense-law.com...

The Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and many state constitutions guarantees you the right to keep and bear firearms. If you have been denied a permit to carry a concealed weapon by your county gun board or have been charged with a firearm-related criminal offense, you want an experienced and aggressive attorney to protect your rights under the Second Amendment, one who understands the importance of gun ownership as a means of self-defense and who believes in your right to possess and carry firearms.

The point being it is the same argument. The TSA is trampling the Constitution and our constitutional rights
Regardless of the risk involved in airline travel we cannot trample the Fourth Amendment. You cannot deny Americans their Constitutional Rights

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and Warrants shall not be issued, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Border search exception Searches conducted at the United States border or the equivalent of the border (such as an international airport) may be conducted without a warrant or probable cause subject to the "border-search" exception.
Most border searches may be conducted entirely at random, without any level of suspicion, pursuant to U.S. Customs and Border Protection plenary search authority.
However, searches that intrude upon a traveler's personal dignity and privacy interests, such as strip and body cavity searches, must be supported by "reasonable suspicion."

en.wikipedia.org...

Without reasonable suspicion /no one can be pulled out of line and fondled.

It is a violation of the Constitution.

But it makes us safer...
But the terrorists...
But the airlines are a private business..

All moot points.
You cannot without reasonable suspicion...strip Americans of their Constitutional protections.
You cannot without reasonable suspicion...strip Americans of their Constitutional rights.

Never give up your constitutional rights out of fear...people have died for your freedom.

Only 'sheeple' believe in the TSA.

Originally posted by rubbertramp
i hate the fact that this is going on, so don't get me wrong here, but i've been a bit of an outlaw all my life.
not in any sort of violent way, but i don't at all conform to the norm.
i have long hair, a beard, i live in an r.v., am self employed, under the table, yada yada.
my point here is, if i get pulled over by law enforcement, or encounter them in any manner,
about the first thing mentioned is, we need to search you and/or your vehicle.
sure this is profiling against me, sure at times i let them, and others i spend hours on the side of the road, waiting for supervisors and the like.
so, now that the t.s.a. basically has the same authority to search me as any other law enforcement agency,
what is the big deal?
besides every american now being me and understanding that we really have no right to travel freely,
is there some explanation someone can give me so i can sympathize with your plight of having some dude in a uniform grab your junk.

Dude,

I also am too lazy to shave and sport a bit of a ponytail from the sixties. It's gray now just like aliens. When I was driving my flatbed all round America and Canada I used to get stopped and a search requested just like you. I always knew for sure that it was because of the way I looked. Of course the cops always lied about it but at least they smiled while lying.

Now TSA is a group of folks who keep referring to various criteria and procedures but never want to share them with us. It's a bit secretive and this alone makes me, and others, feel like there are things that we have no need to know which is another way of saying they have no idea why they do things. The important reason behind all the fuss might be radiation or it might be groping, although some guys like this part, but there is something else. My reasons include the first two but go further. I could beat either of them and sneak a condom full of plastic explosive onto a plane in my ass. Any brother who has been inside knows how to do this. I could then fabricate an electrical detonator using batteries from my cell phone and/or hearing aids. The required voltage and current is easily produced with a very small bit of wire and a capacitor of certain size. All of these can be smuggled aboard easily. I won't mention the very easy disguises the other components would use to get by security. I am not a bad guy but someone who is might read this.

My point is simply that a keester of the same density as surrounding tissue will not be revealed in the scan and it will not be felt in the grope. But does TSA actually know this? If they don't they're pretty stupid. Now here comes a bad guy and he is smart enough to figure all this out, not like that dumb ass underpants bomber, and it's "showtime" in the friendly skies. The scanner and grope will only stop stupid bad guys. It will have no effect on intelligent ones. As I said TSA must certainly be smart enough to know this so why, then, are they #ing with little old ladies and little kids and messing around inside chicks' underwear? The public is smarter than TSA. This is the difficulty. They follow rules made by others who only copy other rules made somewhere else. No one in the whole of the TSA organization is tasked or even capable, I think, of using his/her mind in any unfettered manner. To make matters worse any time you have a "top down" organization people tend to, after a while, become numb. They follow orders explicitly and cite rules but beyond that they are helpless. Arguing with these types then is a world class waste of time. Trouble is that these guys have the power to arrest and mess.

If terrorism goes away tomorrow these scanners and gropers will remain. Once begun they never go away. The scanners are permanent and this is what pisses off all of us who are familiar with human behavior. Two generations from now things will be worse but no one will remember these early times and the blatantly obvious holes in the security system of today which no one seems to note or to react too. No. They are too busy telling us how they are concerned for our safety. Well kids, I do not need nor do I want the government involved with protecting me. The reason is that the people they invariably send to do the protecting are grossly ignorant and blind too. But boy do they have spiffy uniforms. I want one of those shirts to sport whilst astride my ride.

Amen. Now get this. I will probably disappear after the FBI intercepts this post. Ask me if I care.