Airports are NOT required to use TSA screeners!!

Originally posted by SIEGE
( Even if it means giving up individual rights and freedoms.)

I know it is called "American Airlines"...I know the name "United Airlines" might be misleading...but ..

These are private businesses selling a product. If you don't want to go through the process, don't buy the product...or find one that meets your needs..or complain until it changes....

But NO ONE is taking away your "indivdual rights and freedoms"

It's a free market product and individuals make the choice to go along with the search IF they want to get on the plane.

It will evolve to meet consumer needs like any other consumer product or suffer the consequences of the free market...more people flying less or choosing other modes of transportation..or an airline figuring out a way to do it better/less invasively...but until then, it remains a choice folks make...not the TSA kicking in your door and demanding to pat down your wife.

Sometime I will tell you about the time my Father tried to smuggle a bowie knife onto a plane in Indonesia and got caught...or the time I spent in a holding area (along with my wife) on a return trip from Italy when I was confused for a drug kingpin. Airports are airports...I prepare to lose my mind everytime I walk into one...but I know it is the choice I made...

I go to the airport...I wait in line to be poked and prodded and now occasionally groped...when they start comming to peoples homes to do the same I will be the first to declare our civil rights violated and take to the streets...until then...it is a choice.

I should remind some of you that the alleged 911 hijackers - according to (1)John Ashcroft and (2)Donald Rumsfeld - used plastic knives and box cutters. Two items that could still be easily smuggled on board. There are much worse things, that the TSA misses on a regular basis.(3)

So with that in mind, why do we need them? Private enterprise can do it better, cheaper and more efficiently. There are more good reasons to take it out of the hands of our incompetent government than not.

(1)ABC News on September 15th
(2)Fox News on September 16th
(3)TSA tester slips mock bomb past airport security - CNN
- *Most fake bombs missed by screeners - USA TODAY
- *Undercover agents slip bombs past DIA screeners - KUSA 9 (NBC AFILLIATE)
- *Air marshals say system a complete failure, another 9/11 could happen - WTSP 10 Florida

I just got back from a trip, and yes, the screeners in the various airports I used were invasive and just legalized voyeurs, though they were trying their best to make the process as un-humiliating as they could. One of my screeners was clearly drunk; I imagine imposing pat-downs on people who hate them is no fun at all and it may take a few stiffeners in order to tolerate one's job at all.

That said, I found the process somewhat humiliating, though not as bad as it conceivably could be. The new rules are in place because of the recent shipment of explosives on cargo flights from countries in the middle east. Their aim was clearly to blow up Jewish community centers. I support the heightened security which is a result of this.

I am willing to tolerate such measures if they will make us all safer. I do not take the pat-downs as a personal insult to me.

The fact that airports can opt out of the TSA screeners in favor of privatized ones will make no difference to the average airline passenger. A grope will still be a grope, whoever does it.

Time to learn from El Al Airlines

El Al (according to Global Traveler magazine in 2008, for instance) is the world's most secure airline. This is both despite, and because, her planes are assuredly the highest value terrorist targets in the air.

Though El Al incorporates many of the same screening techniques to which we have become accustomed (and more than a few more "behind the scenes" processes and procedures, ever-changing as El Al anticipates and adapts to new threats), the "security experience" for El Al passengers is quite different from that of other airlines. For those of us who might qualify for an imaginary "do fly" list, at least, the difference is this:

The El Al security experience is comfortingly intimate, as opposed to humiliating.

El Al security is not entirely devoid of that familiar "cattle stockyard" feeling, plodding forward in a line, holding your shoes and presenting your papers. There is some of that, but many travelers report that these procedures somehow seem far less intrusive than the anonymous and mechanical stripping, sniffing and prodding which is presently our lot. How can this be? Because El Al incorporates something else: a personal touch. It is a brief personal interview for every passenger, Muslim, Christian, Jew or otherwise.

Before boarding, a few simple, and a few not-so-simple questions are asked, directly, of every El Al traveler. Surely, different people are asked different sorts of questions. They are nominally personal questions, yes, but – and perhaps I only feel this way because I am not a terrorist – they do not seem unnecessarily intrusive. Some questions are specific, and some are not so specific. The questioners, in my experiences, are remarkably pleasant and kind. One gets the impression the interviewers are highly trained – watching for micro-expressions, hidden cues and many other special signs as they listen – but also highly courteous. In a word, respectful.

The brilliant and worldly Rabbi Dr. Gerald Meister told me once: "Political correctness is the enemy of personal respect." I fully understood his meaning when I first flew El Al.

The whole process (for me, at least) takes less than a minute. But that's not the best part. The best part, by far, is the knowledge that every other passenger on the aircraft has been through the same brief, personalized process.

Every passenger experiences the same process

There is an unusual and pleasant consequence of El Al's intimate approach to security: many El Al travelers, myself included, report that there is a special kind of quiet, friendly camaraderie among passengers. One could argue that it's just a fraternal warmth one feels when one is in the "orbit of the Holy Land," but there are many "holy lands" on a passenger roster as heterogeneously diverse in race, religion and politics as Jerusalem itself. What unites El Al passengers is neither collective victimhood, "TSA Stockholm Syndrome," nor a shared taste for kosher airline food. Rather it is a unique sense of self-interested, very personal and very mutual involvement in the security process.

El Al to all outward appearances should be the most dangerous airline in the world, but it is, in fact, the safest. And the airline's most apparent point of difference, for passengers of all colors and faiths, is that little interview.

When you're seated on that flight, by the way, and your meal comes, you'll notice that your knives and forks are not made of plastic. They are made of steel.

El Al, you see, is not focused on detecting nail clippers, marlinspikes or silverware.

It is focused, like a laser, on detecting terrorists.

www.wnd.com...

The job of skilled screener should be filled by highly trained and highly skilled and intelligent people. I heard a suggestion today that called for the employment of some of our service men and women when their commitment is up.

Originally posted by Sestias
The new rules are in place because of the recent shipment of explosives on cargo flights from countries in the middle east. Their aim was clearly to blow up Jewish community centers. I support the heightened security which is a result of this.

I am willing to tolerate such measures if they will make us all safer. I do not take the pat-downs as a personal insult to me.

hey Sestias...good to hear your fresh and rational voice.

First...The UPS cargo shipments/jewish center bombs that were intercepted for the USA? The FBI did the math on the timers in the packages and it turns out they weren't timed to explode when they arrived at the Jewish community center...they were specifically timed to explode when the plane was over a US city on the east coast.
The idea was to time the bomb to blow when the plane was over a heavily populated area of the US....The plane would have exploded and come down in the center of a major metropolis. The FBI hasn't specified specifically where it was rigged to blow yet.

These folks are evil.

What amazes me about all the hub bub??

In fighting terrorists the USA has..

Spent Trillions of dollars.
Invaded and gone to war with 2 Nations...
Sent a couple hundred thousand of our best youth into harms way...to kill and be killed.
Lost thousands of soldiers, and had many more come home missing limbs etc.
Hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians have died in the process as well.
We have illegally improsend folks, Tortured people...passed the patriot act 1 and 2 ..
etc. etc. etc.

But when the average American runs the risk of getting a pat down on our way to taking a vacation..

Whoa!! ....that is where we suddenly draw the line!

Just insanity

reply to post by maybereal11


I'm going to assume that you just recently opened your eyes to the opposition of events that have been taking place in the United States of America over the course of the past 10 years. In fact there has been countless debates, articles and bills brought up to counter the Patriot's acts 1 and 2 etc. and the 2 front war which is continuing to expand now yet into another country. The problem isn't that people don't stand up to it. The problem IS that the people are kept in the dark and manipulated on a regular basis. Only when something smacks them in the face do they start to open their eyes to what's going on.

People feel that their Constitutional right is being violated because they are now being subjected to searches and seizure of properties without due process of the law or even suspicious activity. There is a growing concern that our legal system is shifting to this "Guilty until proven innocent" paradigm. Frankly it's frightening because there aren't enough security firms willing to be thorough enough to prove your innocence.

You sir need to open your eyes to the many intrusive bills, and acts going on in the US right now or you will be one of the ones they decide to test on or herd like sheep. This is not only a proven ineffective means to catch terrorists but is a proven effective means to test the complacency of the US citizens.

This is the DHS, and their supporting seat holders sticking a big frozen middle finger in your face saying let's see what we can get away with because we have an overall agenda that is NOT for the welfare of the people at all.

Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by SIEGE
reply to post by maybereal11

 

What other rights and freedoms shall be taken away from us . . so you worry-warts can feel better ?

Yes...it's a government conspiracy...it was airport security officers who flew those planes into the WTC towers on 9-11...all with the end gaol of being able to feel up your mother without being punished.

C'mon...I know it sucks...we can certainly improve security, scanners do most of the work these days, but if you end up being felt up because something worried security...then I want you felt up before I get on a plane with you.

I remember 9-11 vividly, moment by moment, minute by minute. If airport security needs to pat down your mom in order to make sure that doesn't happen again then they should. If you feel it is too much..then don't Fly. just my opinion.

FYI - I am typically called a communist/socialist/far left-liberal...so I believe in rights. I also belive in keeping us safe.

the Patriot act? That was an erosion of our rights. Getting felt up by airport security after the scanner goes off...that is life.

I wonder who is confused? You, for saying people call you a communist/socialist because you believe in personal rights or me for not getting the joke...

You are walking talking proof that terrorism works. Youve brought up the point about the airline being a service that we pay for and by buying a ticket we give up our 4th amendment rights and that sounds kinda good except that if it had any truth to it then we would have to buy the tickets from uncle sam. Since the airlines are a private business they should be providing their own security.

How about they just start enforcing the rules they already have...
-Pay attention to the no-fly list.
-Dont allow 1 way tickets paid for in cash.
-Scan for metals.
-K9 or puffer explosives detection.

If you want to give someone an extra thorough searching then it should be done by a LOCAL law enforcement officer and it should be preceeded by PROBABLE CAUSE ie you have removed all metal items and still set off metal detectors, alarm on portal explosive detectors or youre "suspicious". The hands on searches should be very rare. You think these $12 an hour TSA "Agents" arent complacent enough to actually find something worth finding?

reply to post by BingeBob



maybereal11,

Your views/beliefs wouldve had you tarred and feathered in 1775.

LONG LIVE KING GEORGE!

reply to post by Smack


So now we most rely on private mercenary security firms to run our "security" for the right amount of money, more power grab for this entities and more incursions on public civil an constitutional rights.

Do you know who runs the spying programs in the US, yes private companies that are not been monitor either for the spying.

Wake up, it is private elite the one that is eroding this nations freedoms and turning with "their profiting products" our nation into an oppress one.

When private groups infiltrates politics to oppress the populations from profiting they are all a danger to liberties and should be dealt with as per case

Group slams Chertoff on scanner promotion follow the money trail and see that it has nothing to do with Security and safety for for some to profit and cash out on Americas population and they do not give a crap about civil and constitutional rights of the people

Since the attempted bombing of a US airliner on Christmas Day, former Homeland Security secretary Michael Chertoff has given dozens of media interviews touting the need for the federal government to buy more full-body scanners for airports.

What he has made little mention of is that the Chertoff Group, his security consulting agency, includes a client that manufactures the machines. Chertoff disclosed the relationship on a CNN program Wednesday, in response to a question.

An airport passengers’ rights group on Thursday criticized Chertoff’s use of his former government credentials to advocate for a product that benefits his clients.

Yes is nice to see how this piece of trash get involved into politics to force upon the citizens anything for profits

www.boston.com...

Originally posted by Stryker Ops
reply to post by maybereal11

 

I'm going to assume that you just recently opened your eyes to the opposition of events that have been taking place in the United States of America over the course of the past 10 years.

Incorrect. I do find it ironic that many conservatives who support the wars and draconian measures are the same ones complaining.

Originally posted by Stryker Ops
Only when something smacks them in the face do they start to open their eyes to what's going on.

The idea that our soldiers comming back crippled or in coffins doesn't smack someone in the face, but an airport pat-down does?....WTF is wrong with this country?

Originally posted by Stryker Ops
You sir need to open your eyes to the many intrusive bills, and acts going on in the US right now or you will be one of the ones they decide to test on or herd like sheep.

You sir have no idea of what my eyes have seen or my positions on the broader issues. You sir, let your assumptions and arrogance get the better of you.

Originally posted by BingeBob
I wonder who is confused? You, for saying people call you a communist/socialist because you believe in personal rights or me for not getting the joke...

That would be you for not getting the joke.

Fox News, the GOP, and most of the mainstream news has been giving this non-stop coverage...The same folks that call the patriot act neccessary and the wars just.

Who here is being manipulated?

Originally posted by BingeBob
You are walking talking proof that terrorism works.

That's right...when they flew the planes into the towers, thier end goal was to subject Americans flying somewhere on vacation to being frisked.

We have tortured people, invaded two nations, spent trillions of dollars and killed thousands of civilians and sacrificed thousands of our best youth in war...but when you get frisked on your way to Hawaii...the terrorists have won? Seriously??? How Efed up is that. Are you mad because FOX news told you to be?

Originally posted by BingeBob
reply to post by BingeBob

 

maybereal11,

Your views/beliefs wouldve had you tarred and feathered in 1775.

LONG LIVE KING GEORGE!

You need to read a history book sometime. I recommend “A History of the American Revolution” by Alden to start.

Unless you actually have no interest in 1775 and are just talking smack, which I find to be more likely.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by Smack

 

So now we most rely on private mercenary security firms to run our "security" for the right amount of money, more power grab for this entities and more incursions on public civil an constitutional rights.

At least someone is smelling the BS.

Fox News, GOP etc. railing on about this? This is one huge marketing campaign for Blackwater or one of their many new subsidiaries.

Give it time. Same posters will be shamefully silent when they discover where this false outrage the media is handing them leads.

Shall I start to connect the dots for folks? I have already found the head of the Transportation Committee …the one that just told airports they should opt out of the TSA…was taken to task a couple of years ago for taking money from Blackwater.

Here let me just start to break it down for you…


Rep. John Mica, the Republican who will soon be chairman of the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, is reminding airports that they have a choice.
Opt out of the TSA
sayanythingblog.com...

Airport tells TSA to "get lost, we're opting out'
community.history.com...

Rep. John Mica (R-FL) questions the need for the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing on Blackwater
beemp3.com...(R-FL)+questions+the+need+for+the+House+Oversight+and+Government+Reform+Committee+hear ing+on+Blackwater+USA%2C+saying+it+is+just+the+latest+attempt+to+discredit+anyone+associated+with+the+war+in+Iraq

Republicans ask Waxman to postpone Blackwater hearing
The Republicans include Reps…. John Mica of Florida,
www.politico.com...

“While Democrats like Henry Waxman, who received $6,300 from defense contractors over the past seventeen years, and Elijah Cummings, “whose career contributions from defense interests tally a mere $1,200,” lit into Prince, Republicans like Tom Davis ($717,829), John Mica of Florida ($145,454), and Darrell Issa ($131,235) went easy on the Blackwater chief. In fact, they praised the guy, his company, and the contracting industry in general. ”
www.cjr.org...

reply to post by maybereal11


Youre actually eating the poop that you just crapped out...

You think its ok to subject american citizens to this rediculous groping and radiation exposure because of the NON-EXISTENT terrorist threat. The needless wars and the power grabbing patriot act; they all tie into eachother. If you support the new TSA search procedures then you support the patriot act...they are one in the same.

They tarred and feathered people in 1775 for much less than the blasphemy you spout...

The first airport to opt out. Orlando/Sanford International airport

The backlash continues over those new TSA screening measures, and now one Central Florida airport has decided to go with a private security screening firm.

Orlando Sanford International Airport has decided to opt out from TSA screening.

"All of our due diligence shows it's the way to go," said Larry Dale, the director of the Sanford Airport Authority. "You're going to get better service at a better price and more accountability and better customer service."

Dale says he will be sending a letter requesting to opt out from TSA screening, and instead the airport will choose one of the five approved private screening companies to take over.

Congressman John Mica, who's expected to lead the powerful Transportation Committee next year, says the TSA is crying out for reform.

"I think TSA is overstepping its bounds," said Mica.

Dale says, if all goes as planned, the private security firm could take over in about 12 months.

The TSA points out that even if an airport decides to use a private firm for security, the screeners still must follow TSA guidelines. That would include using the full body scanners if they are installed at the airport.

wdbo.com...

Apparently, they can choose between 5 approved contractors. I am still trying to find those 5 approved contractors. Back in 2005 there were 30+ approved contractors.

reply to post by jibeho


I am glad, see I am all for "security" but in America "security" has become such a corrupted "private" run business that Americans have not clue how far this elite in power running the "security" for profits will go to get their investments pay off.

Originally posted by jibeho

Apparently, they can choose between 5 approved contractors. I am still trying to find those 5 approved contractors. Back in 2005 there were 30+ approved contractors.

Blackwater...
Xe (Blackwater subsiderary)
John Mica Airport Defense Corporation
Ruport Murdoch Industries
And...We overcharge the taxpayer while giving millions to DC Politicians, Inc.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by jibeho

 

I am glad, see I am all for "security" but in America "security" has become such a corrupted "private" run business that Americans have not clue how far this elite in power running the "security" for profits will go to get their investments pay off.

I don't like what has become of this country either. Unfortunately, the TSA monster was created and allowed to fester like a bad wound. They clearly need to reform some policies and procedures seeing as how any new private contractors will have to follow their failed guidelines. We were warned back when the TSA was formed and we all know that the govt. is incapable of managing anything efficiently and above all effectively. They are damn good at pouring money into a black hole though.

I posted some info further up this page regarding the screening system used by El Al airlines. It is highly effective and some time back the TSA was supposed to model its SPOT system after it. TSA has failed. It is definitely time to sharpen up TSA guidelines so that they can stop terrorists and let us have our nail clippers and toothpaste back.

They need to hire the best of the best instead of the bottom of the barrel for these critical jobs.

I chose to not fly today to Vegas (yeah it hurts) ,because I don't want to be touched by a stranger and I don't want even a low dose of radiation. United airlines wouldn't refund my ticket, but offered to give me credit for another flight sometime within the year. The only catch is that there's a 150$ fee for changing my reservation. I just ate the ticket and I won't fly until their procedure is not humiliating to ME. rant over.

reply to post by maybereal11


I bought my plane ticket before molesting was part of the deal. 150$ fee to change a 120$ flight.

reply to post by sbc650mike


The airline owes you money. I honestly think the ticket itself should include on the back what Potential screeners are permitted to do and a disclaiimer explaining the scanner. Whoever issues the ticket at the time of sale should verbally or by email explain what security proceedures you will be subject to...before issuing the ticket. Anything else seems less than legal.

The new TSA guidelines came out in late October, if the airlines didn't make you aware of it, they owe you a full refund. Write an email to the airline, let them know you plan on discussing the matter with a news org and finding a decent class action suit attorney if it isn't resolved quickly.

reply to post by sbc650mike


Bring your gripe to the better business bureau and seek for emotional and compensatory damages. Sue them for the potential millions that you could have won while in Vegas.