Marines Chief Warns Most Are Uncomfortable Serving With Openly Gay Troops

reply to post by p51mustang
good point!. they deal with the most horrible things about humanity as it is! this little issue shouldn't be an obstacle for most soldiers!

Originally posted by Advantage
reply to post by Darkrunner

 

FMJ was propaganda.. and a f-up maybe should get a smacking. Others lives depend on his performance. I doubt being homosexual is a precursor of not being fit for duty. There are openly gay men and women in barracks right now. They have already proven their salt and no one really cares who they poke or whatever. These are different days... its not viet nam or Korea. There are homophobes everywhere, but soldiers know who is covering their lives.. and sexuality kind of takes a back seat in the current modern military.

Now dont get me wrong, Im a Christian and believe truly that its wrong, but I also see that human beings are accountable to God and not me. If they can do the job, I have no quarrel. The quarrel is between them and God IMO. Until I am blameless and lily white, I figure I better keep my judgments to myself and worry about keeping myself on a Godly path before I start pointing fingers at anyone else's trespasses! LOL! Very seriously though, there are some real arguments for women being allowed in the military and them not belonging.. all about as valid as the ones for homosexuals. In other words, these arent valid arguments. WOmen were raped for punishment and not beaten with a bar of soap in a sock It passed and they are now brothers/sisters in combat and after. small minds not centered on the win usually become silent in time. SO too will be the future for homosexuals. I mean sure, if Bruno walked in in pink camo.. yeah, he'd get beaten.. but these SOLDIERS who happen to be attracted to the same sex of folks.. well.. its just a non issue as far as battle ready and being fit for military duty. We'd all be better off not worrying about what folks do between themselves as concenting adults in the long run.

Heck.. I kind of wonder if anyone has really read any history on the military.. as in the soldiers and militaries of the world in history, ancient times to present. Gays were always in the military, women were NOT always in the military. Why the whining about it now? Last I checked morality and godliness isnt the priority for this government of ours anymore. Seems like a reason picked out of a hat to whine about to take the attention from the other real hardcore issues in our military. You know.. REAL issues.

Oh and BTW.. Im not arguing meanly or being confrontational.. just debating and being opinionated

Im New here.. so Im sure I need to clarify as no one knows me!

..

Thank God for thoughtful Christians.

Originally posted by Connman

Originally posted by Tykonos
I thought soldiers are supposed to be tougher than that, or have they gone soft?
A little perspective is needed here, come on!
If a soldier crumbles at the thought of possibily of getting checked out by a guy in the showers, how the heck is he going to cope with the horrors he will go through during combat?

Ok toughen up and let them make the same mistake in open bay sleeping areas as what occurred on my watch on the first page in this thread. Then I think once the pervert is caught they should have both hands stomped flat with combat boots due to the fact they shouldn`t be touching someone they are sleeping near or around.. I can see the headlines now in the news. Gay hospitalized in the military for being gay. Like they wasn`t at fault.

Since I am back in this thread responding and have thought some more on this issue. It raised this one question.

If we had to use the draft would there be a no gay allowed waiver?

That's like saying all hetrosexials are rapists and gropers of women.

Seriously, if a guy makes a sexual assault on another guy, he is in the wrong, totally!

Beat the f*ck out of him, no problem, I would feel like that if a guy had groped a woman whilst she was asleep.

But you can't throw every person into the same basket based on the actions of one or a few.

reply to post by Darkrunner


Then there is something totally wrong with the training.

It should be drilled into all people that serve, to respect, look after and protect people on your own side, regardless of the fact that they dislike them.

reply to post by AP-Chris


Hey, I agree with you on some points.

Of course there are rapists, murderers, bad wolves etc that are gay. But being gay doesn't make them that. that's dwn to the individual.

So by your view, because a rapist, murderer or bad wolf turns out to be attracted to the same sex, all others of a similar sexuality should be punished too?

Can you control your sexual interest in women you interact and work with? I'm assuming you were born straight, and am fairly sure you're not permanently obsessed with the opposite sex.

Gay people are not all sex crazed maniacs; another silly stereotype.

I did not stereotype anyone, unless it is the human race.
Most people I know can not turn this on and off like a light switch. Sometimes you're just attracted to someone else.
Now if you are attracted to someone and had to continually do the three S's with this person day in and day out, do you really believe there would be no tension?
Simple fact: If you want to serve- Then serve.
If you don't- then don't.
Your sexual orientation has nothing to do with it, so why mention it unless you want the attention?
How many straight people do you see running around announcing how straight they are? They don't because people can see it in the way they live their lives most times.
Don't ask Don't tell = It is no ones business but your own. I think you will find most people do not care about your sexual preference until you start trying to cram it down their throats.

I don't know if homosexuality is a choice or not. I do know I have been told by many, many homosexuals that if it is proven to be genetic, they do not support a search for a cure.

I do know that you cannot live two lifestyles in the military and that open homosexuality as a life style is incompatible with military service.

Open homosexuality does not change just DADT. Once that happens they will have to change DOMA, allow marriage and let them move into housing. And THAT will cause problems.

There is no good reason to do this and every reason not to. Service in the US military is not a right. Every country that has allowed it is a shell of their former military selves if they were ever any good at all. Open homosexuality is not the cause, it's a symptom. But it is real.

It is much like the females. We kid ourselves. We say "They are fully integrated, they're just as good, it's ok." In some cases it is close to the truth. There are some very good female soldiers. No matter how good they are, they aren't the same. And we don't do different well.

Black soldiers are no more "fully integrated" now than they were 30 years ago. Anyone that believes there isn't racism in the Army is a fool. And not just a bit. And not just one way.

The Army is falling apart and this will do nothing but hasten the problem.

I keep seeing people say that open homosexuality is not congruent with military lifestyle.

No sexuality is congruent with military lifestyle.

It doesn't matter if it is homo or hetero.

So the Marines are protesting they may have to work with Gays.....but they are not protesting they are going to Guam and the water there is worse than Camp Lejeune?

The Federal EPA just gave DOD a waiver for the Trichloroethylend in the bottom of the water table on Guam. It's from the old military build up.

Google "andersen afb superfund" and click on the Yosemite EPA website that comes up. Scroll down to "Marbo Annex" to read about the waiver.

The old military dumps with hazardous waste and munitions were just pencil whipped off of SuperFund as well and they are not capping them. Why? They plan on drilling wells next to them so the Marines have water.

Marines are not too smart.

reply to post by Tykonos

Hey, I agree with you on some points.

Of course there are rapists, murderers, bad wolves etc that are gay. But being gay doesn't make them that. that's dwn to the individual.

So by your view, because a rapist, murderer or bad wolf turns out to be attracted to the same sex, all others of a similar sexuality should be punished too?

No, what I'm saying (and no proponent wants to acknowledge) is that the predatory gays are disporportionately attracted to the military.

My bet is that any gay proponent is either not military or does/did not serve in an infantry unit.

If queers want to serve in the military in administration or something, fine. But not a combat unit that barracks together in close quarters.

Why do proponents ask us to bend over backwards to accomadate gays yet show no respect for us in return?

To hell with the gay community and their supporters!

They won't, for one second, acknowledge the probelms within their own community and demonize us, who (by all standards) are more normal than they are.

Hey, I'm sorry you guys are gay, but that's not my problem so don't force yourselves into my life. And don't F up the Marine Corps so you can feel like everyone else. Your not like everyone else.

Women still do not serve in Marine Infantry because it does not work. People can like that or not, but it is a fact.

It is the same with open gays in infantry. It will not work. Click your heels together and wish all you want, you will not change reality. Go ahead and pass the law and force it on the military. You will accomplish nothing more than degrading our military so Obama can score a few points with gays for the next election.

Originally posted by AP-Chris
reply to post by Tykonos

 

No, what I'm saying (and no proponent wants to acknowledge) is that the predatory gays are disporportionately attracted to the military.

If queers want to serve in the military in administration or something, fine. But not a combat unit that barracks together in close quarters.

To hell with the gay community and their supporters!

It is the same with open gays in infantry. It will not work.

"Predatory gays are disporportionately attracted to the military", Seriously? Have you got a source to back that claim up? To me, it seems like it's only your opinion which is based on bigotry towards an entire group of people based on the experience of one. You've had a bad experience, I'm really sorry you have but it's clouding your judgement on this issue here mate.

You say it won't work, the fact is gay people have fought in wars along side their straight mates for years. The only thing they are after is job security. There are Countries that already allow gay people to join up, mine included. It hasn't crushed them units.

I know people who have served and are still serving with no problems from their straight mates. Sure they take a bit of banter for it, but that's just like everyone else there.

reply to post by AP-Chris


It is as if they are more concerned with forcing the military to accommodate their strange lifestyle than they are about serving their country.

They don't care about how this will affect enlistment, or fighting capability or how the enemy perceives our sliders. They just care about forcing the military to accommodate them.

*There is no law preventing gay men from forming their own security company and helping the troops that way. Thing is though there is no gay security company out there helping our troops.

Originally posted by justadood

Originally posted by Steve8511

Originally posted by justadood

Originally posted by Steve8511
You can call me a bigot I guess but then I can call you stupid on this issue.

Who called you a bigot?

Also, a 'bigot' is not the same as 'stupid'. Not even comparable, really.
\

And we in the Marines just want to kill the bad guys so you can do whatever back here in the US. BUT again society thinks we need gays to improve our standings with the emotion driven fringe groups, while you all forget what out ultimate purpose is.
I await youingo! That’s where you don’t understand what we do and how we do it. Our training and lifestyle doesn’t have room for the special and correct way of handling another gender or legalized fetish.
Sorry.
r replies.

So gay people can't kill bad guys? How will making it not illegal to be gay in the military effect your ability to fight?

Bingo! That’s where you don’t understand what we do and how we do it. Our training and lifestyle doesn’t have room for the special and correct way of handling another gender or legalized fetish.
Sorry.

This has NOTHING to do with 'special rights' That is a CLEAR misrepresentation of the issue. Gays dont need 'special treatment', they just want the freedom to not lose their job defending the USA simply for being homosexual.

You attempt to characterize it as 'special rights' belies your extreme ignorance.

Not my ignorance, yours. You see it as just let me say I'm gay if you want to and end it there. By pushing your sexual issues on everyone you are wanting policy changes which will have to be done if passed. Housing, uniforms, bathroom use, and you open the whole issue to other fringe groups too.
Just because you have the way you "feel" the issue needs to be handled has no bearing on how the Military does things.
Your bedroom behavior doesn't make you special.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by justadood

 

Wasn't that the whole point of the DADT policy? So that no one that was gay were forced to tell anyone, and they weren't put in that situation? I thought their whole fighting DADT, was so that they could tell. Of course I could be way off base, but I am sure there is spin from both sides like usual. I just don't see what the point is of being openly gay in the military. You are not there to try to find a date.

What you're saying is just as silly as telling straight people to conceal their attraction to the opposite sex. With education and a pro-active policy to change the culture of the military even the most ignorant homophobic people learn that hate based harassment and discrimination is unnacceptable. After a while sexuality becomes a non issue and people learn to see past a persons sexuality without even giving it a second thought. It's possible for even the most bigotted people to get over their bigotry and be friends with gay people- it's just a matter of overcoming the ignorance and conditioning some people have about gay people. You can see this ignorance clearly in this thread as people spout the same old stereotypes equating gay people with other sexually extreme behaviour, being sexually obsessed with all of the men around them, being overtly effeminate and flaunting their sexuality, and the list of ridiculous stereotypes goes on and on.

Of course the great irony is that as any historian will tell you that for the ancient Spartans, Alexander the Great's armies, the ancient Greeks and indeed the ancient Romans, bisexuality and same sex attraction was considered totally normal conduct within all of their armed forces from the top down, and did not impede any of these armies' abilities on the battlefield in any way whatsoever. They would probably consider this whole debate to be highly unusual and nonsensical.

Originally posted by Exuberant1
reply to post by AP-Chris

 

It is as if they are more concerned with forcing the military to accommodate their strange lifestyle than they are about serving their country.

They don't care about how this will affect enlistment, or fighting capability or how the enemy perceives our sliders. They just care about forcing the military to accommodate them.

*There is no law preventing gay men from forming their own security company and helping the troops that way. Thing is though there is no gay security company out there helping our troops.

edit on 21-10-2010 by Exuberant1 because: (no reason given)

Your comments clearly display just how totally cluless and ignorant some people are about this issue.

Originally posted by signal2noise
I don't know if homosexuality is a choice or not. I do know I have been told by many, many homosexuals that if it is proven to be genetic, they do not support a search for a cure.

You can best rest assured that same sex attraction is overwhelmingly not a choice, is genetic and as such was intended by nature to be that way. Can you imagine how ridiculous it would sound if someone told you that your attraction to the opposite sex was a lifestyle choice that you've learnt? That is the argument that many people are repeatedly putting forward in this thread, like a clulessly ignorant broken record player.

[ Not my ignorance, yours. You see it as just let me say I'm gay if you want to and end it there. By pushing your sexual issues on everyone you are wanting policy changes which will have to be done if passed. Housing, uniforms, bathroom use, and you open the whole issue to other fringe groups too.
Just because you have the way you "feel" the issue needs to be handled has no bearing on how the Military does things.
Your bedroom behavior doesn't make you special.

Again, gay people are not pushing their sexual issues on anyone, they're just seeking to be treated equally to straight people, your reference to other ' fringe groups' is just pulling out the old sexual perversion stereotype again, and no, gay peoples bedroom behaviour does not make them special, that's why they're fighting to not be singled out for harassment and violence by criminal haters in society.

The only way this will work is if we change the rules of "Don't Ask Don't Tell."
No enlisted soldier shall divulge or express his/her sexual orientation, whether straight or gay.
Likewise, no enlisted soldier shall express an opinion relating to sexual orientation.
Doing either would immediately result in a technical discharge from service.
Essentially, the military should be androgynous and completely unbiased.
Wishful thinking, I know.

Either way, when it comes down to it, if you're in a foxhole or bunker fighting for your life, the only thing that matters is the men by your side. You're not going to have time to decide whether the guy next to you is a bit fruity.

Bingo! That’s where you don’t understand what we do and how we do it. Our training and lifestyle doesn’t have room for the special and correct way of handling another gender or legalised fetish.
Sorry.

Bingo! Scratch the surface a little and out pops the violently hateful bigot.

The same routine is repeated over and over again whereby a bigot will start out with some ridiculous illogical statement and as soon as you scratch the surface a little out pops the violent homophobe like a psycho jack-in-the-box. Kind of exposes the real underlying issue here; ignorant hatred.

No, what I'm saying (and no proponent wants to acknowledge) is that the predatory gays are disporportionately attracted to the military.

And the stereotypes just keep getting more and more ridiculous.

If queers want to serve in the military in administration or something, fine. But not a combat unit that barracks together in close quarters.

Wow, a 1950's homophobic slur. Kind of exposes where your mindset comes from.