The Holocaust happened - stop questioning it, please

reply to post by catwhoknows


Then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I have nothing negative to say towards you, nothing at all. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs/opinions.

As for abuse, I can see how you would take the actions as such. Unfortunately ATS only sees sensationalism anymore.

toben is weird i'll agree to that, and the video is amateur to say the least.

it raises a few good points if you watch the entire series. here is one of those good points referenced in a much better youtube video that is only a minute or so long.




the video raises and important question;

how do we have a holocaust of many jews in both wars?

one being EXTREMELY PUBLICIZED

and one holocaust in WW 1 yes ONE,

that no one has heard of!?!

strange indeed

but i respect that its not enough for some people. oh and BTW. i don't HATE and jewish person, or anyone for that matter.
AND i am not a holo denier so please don't paint me with a broad brush. I just think there are a few RELEVANT questions that have never been answered and that have been supressed which makes me wonder if something devious is ocurring.

reply to post by 011011110110111001100101


I didn't realize it was a series! (Confession, I didn't make it to the end of the first (Though in my defense I got pretty far.))

Also, I don't paint, at least not people. Actions, those are easy to color in.

Lastly, do I have to watch those? Is there a transcript somewhere? I mean man...

(No disrespect to the videomakers etc, but man...)

reply to post by adigregorio


I don't blame you for not wanting to watch all 9 of them. lol

i can't find a transcript but i did find a website full of scans of the old newspaper articles toben is referencing in the film. it is a very detailed website with lots of information.

taking a scan through this website would, in effect be the same as watching the video series.

reply to post by 011011110110111001100101


Alright Taunty Taunterton, where is the link!

Don't just say there is a site, gimme gimme! I thirst for knowledge, or is that coffee...mmm

reply to post by adigregorio


D'OH!


sorry man i knew i forgot something

www.wintersonnenwende.com...

please excuse that utter FAIL post. lol

There is nothing wrong with questioning it.
The problem comes when, after seeing the facts, people still deny it.
The death numbers come straight from the Nazis themselves.
It's the numbers and methods that they gave during their trials, etc.

The holocaust happened.
It happened in the numbers given.
6 million Jews. Millions of Catholics, homosexuals, and handicapped people.

The Holocaust did happen it is a fact of history. But if we can not trust this part of history can we trust any part of history? What is the point of studying history if it can not be trusted on something this big. Could this be a time shift thing going on here where in another time line it did not happened? That is a bit of a stretch but the way things are going now days I just do not know what to believe any more. In this time-line the Holocaust did happen. I wished it did not but it did.

I have seen no proof of ovens, the zyclon b was used for delousing. It leaves blue stains on the walls as you can see to this day in the delousing chambers. People died no doubt from typhus and other things but I've seen no evidence of Jews being gassed. This was just war propaganda. I highly recommend David coles videos on you tube, he is a Jew and went into hiding after he put his videos out. Just as 911 needs to be accepted to justify wars, the holocaust must be accepted to justify the state of Israel. That's why people are jailed in certain countries for just having a different opinion. Now if that isn't Naziism I don't know what is.

Originally posted by mayabong
I have seen no proof of ovens,

Then you haven't been looking very hard. The people at Topf und Soehne that built them surely do remember them.

the zyclon b was used for delousing.

And for the gassing of people deemed unworthy to live. Not all killings were done by gassing, by the way. Do you only reject those?

It leaves blue stains on the walls as you can see to this day in the delousing chambers.

If you knew the first thing about the Holocaust you would not cite the long debunked Leuchter Report in such a thread. You would also be aware of the fact that most of the actual facilities that were used for gassing were destroyed by the Nazis, and that the chamber at Auschwitz is merely a reproduction.

People died no doubt from typhus and other things but I've seen no evidence of Jews being gassed.

Then you can't have been looking to hard.

This was just war propaganda.

Then please come to my thread here and explain who invented it, when, where and for what purpose. Thanks.

I highly recommend David coles videos on you tube, he is a Jew and went into hiding after he put his videos out.

You might want to tell the truth here. David Cole has recanted and apologized for his "shameful" (his words) participation in those videos. David Cole is not a reasercher but was used by other, well known Holocaust deniers in these videos in order to embarrass the personel at the museum. David Cole no longer promotes the idea that the Holocaust did not happen. Very disingenious of you to claim something else.

Just as 911 needs to be accepted to justify wars, the holocaust must be accepted to justify the state of Israel. That's why people are jailed in certain countries for just having a different opinion. Now if that isn't Naziism I don't know what is.

Please provide one example of anyone that was jailed just for "having an opinion". If you were familiar with the subject you would know that it takes a lot more than just "having an opinion" to get jailed. This is just a dumb straw-man argument.

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


David Irving and Ernst zundel to name a couple. Of course Cole recanted his life was threatned. It doesn't make his points any less valid. Through researching many things have been found untrue in recent years even by mainstream researcher such as soap from Jews and lampshades. So is dachou (sp) still accepted as a gas chamber?? Personally I don't care if it happened or not, truth fears no investigation.

Originally posted by catwhoknows
reply to post by Rising Against

 

OK,

Give me proof that the liberating forces did not find ovens in which many people were gassed.

Just give me that proof, and I will agree with you.

Well, um, I hate to tell you this but.... people aren't gassed in ovens (they're burned). People would have been gassed in gas chambers during the holocaust. So I guess that counts as proof?

reply to post by mayabong


Uhm sorry. In Irving's first court case it was him who sued, not him being sued. His conviction in Austria is based on a speech that he gave to the public (some neonazis) - I don't see how either of these two cases constitue being prosecuted for merely "having an opinion". There's a big difference between having an opinion and publicly and knowignly defying a law that the majority of the people support (as is the case in Austria).

Zündel too was convicted for publishing material that was demonstrated to be fraudulent in court. Nobody stiffled his research, nobody forbid him to ask questions. But peddling known lies in order to denigrate a people is a crime in some countries and when you knowingly and willingly cross that line just to make an example I can hardly see how that constitutes just "having an opinion". There is not one single case were a historian, or an investigator was convicted or jailed or fined just for doing research. The convictions are always on the grounds of promoting lies in order to denigrate a people.

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


So are you saying "holocaust denial" isn't a crime in certain countries??

Originally posted by mayabong
Personally I don't care if it happened or not.

You don't care that it happened? Really?

You just destroyed your credibility right there if I take your comment to mean what I think it means. Bottom line.

reply to post by mayabong


Yes that's what I'm saying. Among the many countries that have such laws, only a few specifically were made against Holocaust Denial and even in these, say Switzerland, these laws are not against doing research or bringing forward controversial new evidence concerning the Holocaust. These laws are against distribution or public, non-private promotion of material that is fraudulent and spinned in such a way as to denigrate a whole people.

David Irving was not convicted in Austria because he believes that there were no gas chambers but because he chose to say so in public even though he knew that he would get prosecuted for it. David Irving had the chance - a chance he today uses - to promote and forward these ideas only in environments that don't criminalize such behavior, a chance he didn't take in order to make a political stunt and because he loves attention and is quite fond of playing the martyr. The same with Zündel.

The funny thing about these laws is the following: If you could conclusively prove that the Holocaust didn't happen then you have nothing to fear from the courts even if you get indicted. If you look at the individual cases you will see that the greatest part of these trials are concerned with the question of the intellectual honesty of the works under review. Irving as well as Zündels problem was that they both had been shown to be disingenious liars, quote-miners etc. using a methodology that was quite fradulent. I say this because I'm famliliar with both cases and I invite you to read the court proceedings and witness for yourself how important the honesty and scientific standard of such indicted works is for the outcome of the trial.

As I said, there's more to being convicted under the laws that are known as "Holocaust Denier laws" than to simply "ask questions". It takes a will to publish or publicly promote material that has been shown to be fraudulently composed in order to smear a certain minority. In most countries these laws cover any attack of this sort against any minority. In Germany at least you could sue under the same law if someone published an anti-gay tract that would denigrate gay people by using bogus science. There also, it takes more than simply "having an opinion". It takes public promotion of something that has been demonstrated to be false and only promoted by people for ulterior motives.

I have argued with Holocuast deniers and have been blocked from their websites when they found out I knew too many details about what really happened. That happened to me two or three times, but I didn't need very long to show how deceptive they were.

I once got kicked off a website for making mincement of debunkers on another subject. One in particular I just drove nuts and he was their golden boy, but he was finally got so crazed that they had to ban him, too. In fairness, I didn't know that the debunkers had taken over the website when I joined it, but I sure drove them nuts for a while.

That's what the Internet wars are really like.

Originally posted by mayabong
I have seen no proof of ovens…

With the greatest respect what you see is irrelevant. It is documented historical fact that there were ovens and that they did not bake bread.

Originally posted by mayabong
…but I've seen no evidence of Jews being gassed.

Again, and with the greatest respect what you see see is irrelevant. It is a historical fact that the Nazis undertook the industrialised extermination of Jews, gypsies, Poles, the disabled et al and this is evidenced in contemporary sources and material and from testimony from people who were there and who managed and conceived the whole nasty affair. The Nazis were sticklers for bureaucracy and the evidence is in the files, so to speak! No number of YouTube videos will alter this fact.

Originally posted by mayabong
I highly recommend David coles videos on you tube…

David Cole is a single focus Holocaust Denier who paints himself to be a Holocaust “historian”. Yeah right. He recanted his Holocaust at one point but restarted them a few years later – presumably when he needed the revenues from a book! His views may play well to the Denier crowd, but are out of tune with historical fact, but then facts are not really part of the equation when revisionism is your game.

Originally posted by mayabong
That's why people are jailed in certain countries for just having a different opinion. Now if that isn't Nazism I don't know what is.

You should be glad that you don’t live in times where Nazism exists. I assume you are railing against the laws in Germany which prohibit Holocaust denial. Quite right. In the same way that paedophilia is unacceptable in civilised societies there are some crimes which are also deemed unacceptable. The revision of World War 2 history in Germany is considered to be unacceptable because the Germans have decided to become custodians of the historical record, without it being tainted. Perhaps if Cole was so sure he could go and argue the point in a German court!

I have a strong dislike of historical revisionism.

Regards

Here's the famous Alfred Hitchcock documentary on the concentration camps in 1945, which is even more graphic than "Night and Fog" or "Shoah". This is what they saw in those camps right after they were liberated, and it should be shown more. Hitchcock was so upset by it that he couldn't finish it, but this alone is an answer to people who say that it never happened.

editby]edit on 10-10-2010 by witness63 because: (no reason given)