Hi Kiwi, thanks for replying mate. You raise some great points for discussion.
Originally posted by kiwifoot
reply to post by atlasastro
Thanks for the time you put into your post, I see you argument and it makes sense.
No problem.
What I see is in the future is all these subsidies being removed, the pubic paying the true cost for oil, and us also getting stuffed with
carbon taxes and all that entails.
If we removed the subsidies, our system would become to expensive for us now too!
I think you are misunderstanding the concept of the carbon tax, it is to make a transition away from using the fuels and energy that emits carbon as a
by product. It is about stopping us actually emitting carbon. Naturally, if you get your energy from other methods or say, as a basic example, you buy
goods or products locally rather than those with lots of transport and manufacturing costs etc, you avoid the taxes involved around carbon.
I think you are caught in the concept that we have to continue with our old methods with this added tax. The market will sort these out by making them
real as a cost which will induce consumer trends to drive the market of services and goods to seek variety and innovation that was missing due to the
artificially low costs of energy that have made us lazy.
I don't disagree with you in the main, and I'm not against new taxes or saving the planet just because politicians plan them.
I agree
with you totally. The problem is that Politicians will compromise in order to keep the big end of town happy. What they often compromise is the
integrity of a plan that has our interests at heart in order to satisfy a few.
I just don't see this as a viable plan intended to help the planet.
The problem you also have to remember is that we way we live now,
is not viable either nor is it benefitting the planet.
All I see is a system where those that control the oil, squeeze as much profit as possible by making money from the
waste.
Unfortunately, this is what has gotten us into trouble. Profit before anything else. It is the only way to make people change too. If we
apply the real costs of oil and fossil fuels onto the public, demand drops, profits drop. This makes people eager to find newer more profitable
methods. Unfortunately, people will manipulate the system. But we need to find a solution.
Also, governments need to find a system that generates revenue in order to fund research, innovation and provide business incentives and grants to
start up companies providing alternatives to the Oil crowd.
Change does not come for free.
The problem is though, is that we think we are getting screwed, when in reality, we have had it real good for a long time and now we have to pay the
bill.
This is where politicians and big business pack up and put it all on us. They don't want to pay their share. And this is where the problem begins
with some of the trading schemes and exemptions etc get manipulated or will be abused in order to benefit just some people.
This is what you are seeing, and you are right to be pissed. I am.
I mean seriously, do you think that this will change peoples' habits that much?
Yes people will. People will stop driving frivolously.
People will stop buying imported goods that incur real transport costs. Just two quick examples.
If this was about helping the planet, about a real threat (I'm not convinced myself) I'd be all for it. But as soon as I see AG and Tony
Blair getting on board, well my friend, you can bet sometime is up.
No doubt, AG and Blair make the Gulf of Mexico look clean

.
The thing is Kiwi, our whole society is based around making money. It puzzles me that when we mention Green technologies etc and Profit, people start
screaming it must be a scam or a con. Governments tax things all the time, People make new trade systems and mechanisms of profit all the time. Why
would a solution to our current miss use and dependance on oil, be any different?
I agree with you that any cap and trade system will be manipulated, it is or will be, but then again so is the current system. But we need a solution.
It is just that the solution is going to cost us a little more, but only when compared to how cheap it is now, which is artificial and unsustainable
anyway.
My friend, there is no simple equation, and as always we will just have to keep the bastards honest as best we can.
Take care mate.