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posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 04:30 PM
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I'm sorry if it took so long to find this but here it goes for the last thead Masons not a secret Society. Masonic Light/Alex have you ever seen this article? It is entitled "Secret Societies in the Ancient Americas". It states how Ancient Masonci Lodges have been discovered amomg the American Indians found at an Anasazi (I spelled it wrong earlier:wow archaelogical site 80% identical to Masonic Lodges in America now."In the ancient lodge...there were fifty rocks and clay tablets, which he dated 1000 and 1200 A.D, written what appears to be Arabic...". Does this seem like it may be the same form of Masonry which you currently practice in the Scottish Rite?




posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 04:34 PM
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Got a link or something? I did a search and found nada.



posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by Darktalon
Got a link or something? I did a search and found nada.

Unfortunately not. I am looking for the article online now. Maybe in an archaelogical magazine. But this info was to try to explain the notion of Ancient Masonic prescence. Still looking.



posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 04:50 PM
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I found something else from a Mason's article in Canada. Not as concrete as I would like but interesting.



posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by MOOR45
I found something else from a Mason's article in Canada. Not as concrete as I would like but interesting.



Do you have a link?



posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by MOOR45
Does this seem like it may be the same form of Masonry which you currently practice in the Scottish Rite?


Doesn't actually sound like anything we do in the Scottish Rite up here, but I have this to say.

I sincerely believe there were initiatic systems among Pre-Columbian Natives all throughout the Americas. In fact, I believe there is a Native Secret Society which has a ceremony known as the "Bear Ceremony" which is almost identical with our third degree (although, of course, the principals represent animals, not historical humans).

My explanation for this, however, is convergent evolution. If the Iroquois develop a long tapered needle with a hole at one end, and so do the Sumerians, we don't assume that the Iroquois learned it from the Sumerians, we simply assume that both came up with the most practicable solution for the problem. Similarly, if the Iroquios (who were a very social federation) developed secret societies, we should not be surprised that their form resembles those developed in Africa and Europe. But I doubt that there was any commerce between the Americas and Europe that would allow those kind of rituals to be transmitted from one to the other.

Similarly, I will never disagree that the Egyptians, say, or the Ethiopians did not have highly complex and worthwhile initiatic systems. Indeed, I suspect Egypt was the first country in the region to come up with initiatic systems that were linked to religion and rulership rather than just rites of passage for young adults. Nonetheless, I believe what we call "Masonry" was of European (probably British or Scottish) origin, with several elements derived from other cultures known to the original Masonic framers.



posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 07:19 PM
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When did Freemasonry start? I've heard that they are much older than 1000 years ago...



posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by MOOR45
I found something else from a Mason's article in Canada. Not as concrete as I would like but interesting.



Do you have a link?

Yes. For some reason it didn't post. Give me a sec. Ah, here it is www.mastermason.com...

[edit on 6/23/2004 by MOOR45]



posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 07:53 PM
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Alex, I understand your point, however, I found it interesting that the themes they found resembled the lodges of today. It seems even remotely possible that this craft spread across many lands in different forms throughout the ages into it's present form from the Grand Lodge of England.



posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by MOOR45
Alex, I understand your point, however, I found it interesting that the themes they found resembled the lodges of today. It seems even remotely possible that this craft spread across many lands in different forms throughout the ages into it's present form from the Grand Lodge of England.


I certainly wouldn't deny that it is remotely possible. I think an even more likely possibility is that both shared a common ancestor, a kind of primal initiation myth.



posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by MOOR45
Alex, I understand your point, however, I found it interesting that the themes they found resembled the lodges of today. It seems even remotely possible that this craft spread across many lands in different forms throughout the ages into it's present form from the Grand Lodge of England.


I certainly wouldn't deny that it is remotely possible. I think an even more likely possibility is that both shared a common ancestor, a kind of primal initiation myth.

What !? Alex, we agree almost!
It is a very interesting premise though. I still think there is a direct link! Don't scold me Alex!



posted on Jul, 6 2004 @ 09:14 PM
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Interesting indeed...

I actually read something about this awhile back, but I don't remember where.

Hopefully you will find some more links MOOR45.




Peace



posted on Jul, 7 2004 @ 12:23 AM
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i recently read a book in my lodge's library, from a research lodge (?) back east with a tremendous library. In that library were discussions from a Mason that lived among the indians at the turn of the (20th) century, wherein it is noted that an indian tribe had masonic ritual...

I will go look up that book and see what it says again...

May be a couple of days, though...



posted on Jul, 7 2004 @ 08:51 AM
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There were quite a number of Native American Freemasons. Joseph Brant was a Mason, and a Past Master, for example.

Several years ago, the Scottish Rite Research Society published a speech given by Albert Pike to a Native American Lodge, shortly after the Civil War, which is an interesting read.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Jul, 7 2004 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by MOOR45
Does this seem like it may be the same form of Masonry which you currently practice in the Scottish Rite?


Doesn't actually sound like anything we do in the Scottish Rite up here, but I have this to say.

Thanks. I was going to shriek and leap in with "NOnononono!" and other exclaimations of "golly, that's WAY wrong!"


I sincerely believe there were initiatic systems among Pre-Columbian Natives all throughout the Americas.

In some groups, yes. Most prominent were the warrior socieites. There were also some traditional practices (Peyote ceremonies, Deer ceremonies here in the Southwest) that if you didn't know about them might look like an initiatic system.


My explanation for this, however, is convergent evolution. If the Iroquois develop a long tapered needle with a hole at one end, and so do the Sumerians, we don't assume that the Iroquois learned it from the Sumerians, we simply assume that both came up with the most practicable solution for the problem. Similarly, if the Iroquios (who were a very social federation) developed secret societies, we should not be surprised that their form resembles those developed in Africa and Europe. But I doubt that there was any commerce between the Americas and Europe that would allow those kind of rituals to be transmitted from one to the other.

Excellent explaination -- and yes, quite true. The societies differ in some important ways because of the social structure of the groups.


Nonetheless, I believe what we call "Masonry" was of European (probably British or Scottish) origin, with several elements derived from other cultures known to the original Masonic framers.

Absolutely correct, and as you point out, the system is very obviously European in origin.



posted on Jul, 7 2004 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by theron dunn
i recently read a book in my lodge's library, from a research lodge (?) back east with a tremendous library. In that library were discussions from a Mason that lived among the indians at the turn of the (20th) century, wherein it is noted that an indian tribe had masonic ritual...

I think you'll find this is confirmed... though what's going on is not that they really had a Masonic ritual, but that the Mason (who was looking for parallels) "discovered" these "masonic rituals."

It's kind of like the preachers "discovering" that the Indians had a concept of a "creator god" that was "just like the Christian god." In truth, the two are very different, but to the enthusiastic outsider who's trying to find points of contact for the two cultures, it is seen as an "almost exact match."



posted on Jul, 7 2004 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by Tamahu
Interesting indeed...

I actually read something about this awhile back, but I don't remember where.

Hopefully you will find some more links MOOR45.




Peace

I definitely will try. Alot of my information is hardcopy but I will work on it right away. As I said in other posts that Modern Fremasonry is from European origin, however the system has shown it's roots to ancient times. There were several names for this system of initiation. One of them was the silent brotherhood.



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