It's official - RELIGION = Right Wing, ATHEISM = Left Wing.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Old habits die hard; boy is World War III going to be messy.

Starred and flagged OP, I think it behooves us all to start having the difficult discussions about what gives religion in general such an appeal, as opposed to the infighting between the religious as to what sect or denomination or faith has the most appeal.

I hope it doesn't come to that Proto! I enjoy life

Thank you for the S&F, indeed intelligent discussion about religions' role in politics is very difficult. I'm proud to say that this thread has attracted some of the brighter minds on the board - which is a pleasant surprise.

As I have mentioned many times, (it is usually overlooked) I actually support EVERYONES right to practice religion. I just don't believe in proselytization or evangelism - I think both are wrong and undemocratic. That's why the Canuck's point of the United Church in Canada struck a chord with me - they sound like a religion that doesn't seek followers, seekers find it. That's the true nature of a good faith - if you're looking for it, you'll find it. I even think there's something a little romantically noble about that concept.

I will always be an atheist - but I'm not cold with it.

Parallex.

Religion and politics are two wholly separate things. No political ideology or party (at least not in the US) represents Christian theological beliefs, and likely never will, because they are not the beliefs of those who would rule, rather of those who would serve.

I refuse to vote for anyone who declares himself the "Christian candidate" solely on that basis, in fact I tend to scrutinize such people much more, because they are rarely supportive of Christ's teachings, which come down to protect the innocent, help those in need, and try to get along with others.

People who allow themselves to be manipulated thusly marginalize themselves. If I declare that the abolition of abortion is all that matters to me, then the candidate who claims to support it assumes my vote regardless of his other positions, and when the dust has cleared and it's time for evaluations of what got accomplished, for my single issue, it's usually nothing, because there's no need to address me and my myopic views. Say "we'll get 'em next time" and count on my blind support, yet again.

Both I, and most of my friends at church, tend to be a bit more liberal than conservative, though if pressed, I'd likely categorize myself as Libertarian, and have voted that way most often. If I don't like any of the candidates for an office, I won't "vote for the lessor of two evils", I'll just not vote for that office. I did not fill in the section for President in 2008, couldn't support any of them.

I think that the loudest of these two groups (atheists and religious) tend towards your categorizations, but that's not really telling of much beyond the loudmouths.

reply to post by adjensen


Innocent question for you - Do you practice or agree with proselytization or evangelism?

Parallex.

Originally posted by Parallex
It has finally become distinctly clear in the minds of the world at large.

Religion has become the preserve of Right Wing thinkers and practitioners, Atheism & Agnosticism have become the preserve of the Left Wing. Yes, these are generalisations, and don't take into account specific examples. However, as a general rule of thumb, it's sound.

About as sound as any other left wing thought processes go. All that's important though is if it makes you feel better with your Gay Jesus, then it must be good.

Originally posted by Ferris.Bueller.II

Originally posted by Parallex
It has finally become distinctly clear in the minds of the world at large.

Religion has become the preserve of Right Wing thinkers and practitioners, Atheism & Agnosticism have become the preserve of the Left Wing. Yes, these are generalisations, and don't take into account specific examples. However, as a general rule of thumb, it's sound.

About as sound as any other left wing thought processes go. All that's important though is if it makes you feel better with your Gay Jesus, then it must be good.

Why so hostile?

Does my gay Jesus offend you? If so, why?

Would you class yourself as a right-wing thinker?

Parallex.

While I think there's some truth to what you say, I don't think it's really that simple.

Christian groups in the U.S. have a long history of activism in the social justice arena (typically seen as a left-ish sort of pursuit), and many churches continue that tradition now.

Many of the major U.S. denominations, for instance, have adopted official statements supporting the legal right to abortion:

Pro-choice religions are among the most trusted institutions in the United States. These traditions, with more than 20 million members in the U.S., support reproductive choice as the most responsible position a religious institution can take on this issue.

The Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church (USA), United Church of Christ, United Methodist Church, Unitarian Universalist Association, and Reform, Reconstructionist and Conservative Judaism all have official statements in support of reproductive choice as a matter of conscience, adopted by their governing bodies.

source

Neither the Pope nor the Evangelicals can speak for all Christians, or all religious people.

edit to add a link:
Catholic Church and Universal Health Care

In this link you can see the complications: the Catholic Church in the U.S. strongly supported universal health care (leftish) while refusing to support any bill that required coverage for abortion (rightish). The groups from the last link I gave mostly supported universal health care with abortion coverage; the evangelical Christian groups mostly didn't support universal health coverage at all.

Originally posted by Parallex
The right-wing religious thinkers propound that Atheism should not be ALLOWED to advertise it's values and ethics (as in that it has none on the religious front), and that Atheists should become subject to religiously affected government / private policy. Clearly, this is undemocratic and is not practicing freedom from religion.

Whereas the left-wing thinkers who are devoid of religious intent, propound equality for all with freedom from religious influence (and latitude to practice to religion) as a fundamental right.

Which is better?

Your image of what makes up "right-wing religious thinkers" is probably seeing red faces boiling with hatred, fear, homophobia, racism and ready to deploy machinery of war.

But I dare say that the actual majority of right-wing-voters and churchgoers are just normal suburban folks who say "Its none of my Business what others believe or dont believe". Folks who would agree with you.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Looks like I messed a lot then.
www.religiousrightwatch.com...
Of course the Christian Right wants to take over the country.

Originally posted by Parallex
reply to post by adjensen

 

Innocent question for you - Do you practice or agree with proselytization or evangelism?

Nope. I have a responsibility to correct misrepresentations of Christianity and (in the exceedingly rare case) tell those who don't know what it is what it's all about, but it ends there. I don't really care whether you believe it or not, that's between you and God, not you and me. As Christ says -- tell the people, and if they're not interested, walk away.

I am probably more of an proponent of the separation of church and state than a non-believer might be, because I don't like it for two reasons -- the state "forcing" anyone to believe is contrary to my faith, and is abhorrent to me, and the other side of the separation keeps the state out of my church, which I find as important as anything else.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


These two sides have been in Competition since hundreds of years and would love to hog airtime and "take over".

But the American brand of ultra-rightwing Christianity is not as widespread in other places in the world.

America is not the only place that exists.

The essential conflict of Relativism vs. Absolutism goes back thousands of years.

This false dichotomy is the prime Conspiracy upon which all suffering of World History was built. Today it takes the shape of Left vs. Right and Atheism vs. Religion.

Originally posted by americandingbat
Christian groups in the U.S. have a long history of activism in the social justice arena (typically seen as a left-ish sort of pursuit), and many churches continue that tradition now.

That is quite correct -- my own religion, Methodism, was founded on the tenets of social justice. John Wesley was a member of the Anglican Church, but felt that they weren't doing enough to address the general needs of society. He didn't really set out to start a new church, and remained a member of the Church of England until his death, but his views, and those of his followers, were sufficiently less mainstream than the CoE, and Methodism was the result.

We do not use wine in communion, for example, because of the temperate views of the church, as well as the recognition that those who are unable to drink alcohol should not be barred from communion. While the church tends towards social justice as a focus, and world service (UMCOR is often one of the first organizations at the site of a disaster and sticks around long after the cameras and other agencies have left, helping without preaching,) it is neither a liberal nor conservative church, across the board.

I have my issues with it (I am, for example, in favour of homosexual rights, and the church is not,) but it has been my faith home for a long time, and we get along well enough.

Originally posted by Parallex

Why so hostile?

What hostility?

Does my gay Jesus offend you? If so, why?

Doesn't offend me, but he's just not my 'cup of tea'. If he appeals to you, then you should stick with him. Everybody has to find their own Jesus, and it looks like you found yours in him.

Would you class yourself as a right-wing thinker?

If by 'right wing' you mean a conservative view, yes I would.

I hate when the left and right enter a conversation and the definitions are not explained.

The true left right, when speaking of totalitarianism.

Left-Dictators, Communists, Socialists, Kings, Fascists, Corporatists, etc etc etc

Right-Libertarians and Anarchists

As for your figuring out that the True Right has a majority of the Religious, WOW, talk about a no brainer.

Do no harm. Do not infringe on other's rights. WOW, that would like take a genius to figure that out.

Titheing is completely different than putting a gun to someone's head and being a tyrant.

Sometimes I am just amazed.

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower


A lot of you guys don't know any of these political theories to criticize them.
www.publiceye.org...
A while back I created a thread on Fascism and as well Communism and Socialism.
Fascism is difficult to explain.
Check the link out and tell me what you think.

You are right. The Left has always been against hiearchial establishments especially Monarchy, Aristocracy and Religion. This does not mean the Left is strictly against religion because that's not completely true, but the Left has always been more Secular and Socially Progressive.

When I say the Left I mean:

Anarchism
Communism
Socialism
Liberalism
Libertarianism


Those of the ideologies of the Left and yes they do stretch quite far across the spectrum. But their general idea of Egalitarianism, Equality and Secularism remain strong.

S+F

Originally posted by Misoir
When I say the Left I mean:

Libertarianism

That is quite a stretch -- a Libertarian is, effectively, the last adherent of the credo "the government that governs the least, governs best", which is hardly a liberal tenet. Nor a conservative one, of late.

reply to post by adjensen


Anarchism origins is neither left or right. Of course both sides have had success in the various Anarchist schools. Traditional Anarchy is non government.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


What are you talking about? "Traditional Anarchy is non government"? Anarchy IS the lack of governance! That's what it means! I was replying to a note about Libertarianism, which has nothing to do with anarchy.

reply to post by adjensen


Well I'm an Atheist. I'm not an lacking of any faith. The same with Anarchism
www.infoshop.org...
I need to study more about the philosophy though.