Laws on "dangerous" items too strict?

Now Before I get flamed two things

one: if this is the wrong forum I am very sorry Not sure where this should go, possibly my story? Bully pulpit? I'm a newb at thread creating.
*bows* Please forgive oh great ATS masters

two: I'm not a teenager who thinks we should be allowed to drink 24/7. But rather observing a new trend, and want to have a discussion about it if possible.


Anyways, First I would like to tell my story. It begins with my birthday and going to the liquor store, as I am a young adult in university and as such there is often drinking. I am from Canada, specifically Ontario where the legal age is 19, however you are an adult at 18. As I walk in to the LCBO (the liquor store) I grab what I need, ask where this alcohol I had never drank or heard of before and where it was. At the time I was with my best friends one of which is not of age yet (3 months), but comes from a very traditional European family and has been drinking wine and liqueur for years.
I needed them to pick up some stuff at the store so they stepped outside to get that while I paid. It is then that this story takes a weird turn. As I'm about to pay the cashier asks if I have ID and if the people who were with me have ID as well and if they could come back. I said well they just went to the grocery store, so no. Without even giving a glance at my ID she abruptly stated an obscure law that is called underage by association. She denies letting me buy the alcohol stating that she cannot sell me the alcohol and that I will have to leave and go to another store because I potentially could sell this alcohol to minors, and that I am by association underage unless those who were with me present legitimate photo ID recognized by the LCBO (passport, of age card OR license with photo and birth date).

So before you judge me hear me out, I get that there are people out there who do but this law is applied at cashier's discretion. Meaning even a parent can be denied alcohol if they are with their child. This to me seems a bit outrageous. It seems to me that laws on certain items are becoming so strict that its becoming nearly impossible to obtain it.

Medicines are just as bad. Cough syrup is now becoming harder to obtain and in some cases cough syrup is being diluted in order to remain over the counter. Why because there are drug addicts and alcoholics.

Another example that's been floating around is the laws on organic and raw foods. What is our world coming to that we must be coddled and helped to make good choices. What happened to the days of live and learn?

So now that I am done explaining through my little rant I want to know:

-Do you think laws are becoming to harsh on "potentially" dangerous Items?

-Do you support these laws? Why or why not?

-Why are governments trying to stop alcohol and drug sales (legal) rather than educate and let people make their own choices? Should they do this?
*for this question I do realize that more drugs are being prescribed now but, I am a legit user of high dose pain killers due to chronic migraines before you say try natural, I have

As always,

Xiamara

Originally posted by Xiamara
-Do you think laws are becoming to harsh on "potentially" dangerous Items?

-Do you support these laws? Why or why not?

-Why are governments trying to stop alcohol and drug sales (legal) rather than educate and let people make their own choices? Should they do this?
*for this question I do realize that more drugs are being prescribed now but, I am a legit user of high dose pain killers due to chronic migraines before you say try natural, I have

Having lived in Amsterdam, amongst other place, I can say that I noticed people looked quite differently at drinking and smoking marijuana. Marijuana, especially, is something people try and then decide if they like it or not. My friends there did not abuse it and used it sparingly. The consensus between us was that because it was legal it's sort of like working up a bit of a tipsy feeling to have more fun on a night out/in with friends.

Granted, I know full well that drugs, and alcohol for that matter, result in damage to your body and possibly your mental state. But people are aware of this. Because it is legal it's not a taboo subject. You can talk to parents or others and get informed. Furthermore, drug awareness is very big to fill kids on the possible effects and dangers of use of these substances.

So people try smoking a spliff and make their own mind up. With communication, I don't see a problem with that because you have nothing to hide.

As for Alcohol, I see it similar to learning to drive a car. Your age doesn't mitigate the risk or danger. However, I'm not saying you need to do a theory + practical exam to learn how to drink (now there's an awesome idea) but it's something you need to be informed about like I said above.

The fact that governments are making certain things harder to get is just in response to media outcries over occasional incidents. As such the public then thinks the government cares.

Originally posted by Xiamara
She denies letting me buy the alcohol stating that she cannot sell me the alcohol and that I will have to leave and go to another store because I potentially could sell this alcohol to minors, and that I am by association underage unless those who were with me present legitimate photo ID recognized by the LCBO (passport, of age card OR license with photo and birth date).

I think she's protecting herself from getting into trouble (losing her job). Anyone can sell alcohol and give it to a minor, so I don't buy that reason. I've seen a guy buy beer at "The Beer Store" down the road from me 1 Saturday evening, and he was completely intoxicated. I have also seen a guy refused beer for the same reason.

I do believe that some people do take it a bit far with the laws. Personal example:

I went with friends one Sunday to take their 2 boys swimming. In the afternoon, I walked over to the convenience store to buy cigarettes. There were about 8 people at the back of the queue when I got the the counter. The woman asked for ID, and get this I was 31 at the time! Needless to say everyone starting laughing at this ludicrous request.

reply to post by Tarrok


I totally agree I was given crash course drinking. Never got that bad again. The government needs to let people make their own mistakes. Instead of harsh laws let people make their mistakes and have the resources to educated them and to help them should any substance abuse happen. In Canada they under fund drug an alcohol education but invest in the safe injection site program that supplies safe drug paraphernalia to stop aids and HIV but not drug addictions. I think paid drug and alcohol education AND rehabilitation is needed. Not over legislation.

Obviously the question of safety is always the top one on everyone's mind. But I agree if you make sure to educate and inform people.

Most importantly make them feel like they can talk to people if they have concerns about their friends or any questions/whatever. In terms of drinking, loads of people do it before the legal age without any knowledge on the consequences. All they hear is: "If we get caught the cops will bust us." and then think they're cool and want to be special.

Fear is not what will prevent overdoses and abuse. Knowledge and a sense of comfort however, will.

It seems everyone has got very scared of accidentally selling to anyone underage. In a way I can understand. Our local laws mean it is the clerk who gets a fine of thousands, out of their pocket. My local store has a policy sign that says anyone under 30 should be ID'd, but some of the more paranoid store clerks ID people who are even obviously in their 50s.

The whole "underage by association" thing is new to me though. Here the store clerks don't have to worry about that. If a customer then gives the alcohol to someone underage, it's not the store clerks problem, it's the customers, and it's them who will be fined, although sometimes you can legally give alcohol to underage people here, if it's in the home, or to members of your family.

Hi

I live in the Netherlands. About the freely available option to by marijuana.
2 things :

1. My country has statistically less users than the US.
2. Never ever have I seen it cause problems as only alcohol can cause.

Furthermore I agree with the guy that lived in Amsterdam.

I will present an even more absurd rule out here.

The cinema or movie theater in my city has denied entry to a 15 and 9 months year old girl that wanted to see a 16 year old rated movie. Keep in mind that these are meant to be an advice for parents . Now it comes...
The girl was with her father.

The theater can get a 10.000 euro fine if they let underaged kids in.
The age rates are meant as an advice and parents themselves have the final call. Officially. She did not see the movie that night.

I really was shocked by this. Still can't grasp the severity of our loss of freedom.

Reply to Tortoiskweek

Hey don't feel lonely and under aged.

That happens to me all the time. Yesterday even. I'm about to turn 28 two weeks from now.

Really... I'm not kidding.

This exactly it. The Europeans I think have it right. Allowing freer access to alcohol and marijuana, makes it more socially acceptable, so kids just don't feel the need to rebel via drugs and alcohol.

The story about the movie is very interesting. Its the exact opposite of where I am from. I have never been carded to see a movie most clerks ignore it and allow entrance. Rated R in Ontario is age 18. I've been able to see R movies since I was 15/16. I've even seen 14 year olds buying rated R movies. We just don't care what kids see, rather what they do.

I have a similar story,

I had been visiting my girlfriends sister in New Hampshire and on the last day we decided to buy her some wine as a gift, so as she was driving us to the airport we stopped by a shop to get it.
At the time I was 29, my girlfriend was in her early thirties and her sister nearly 40.
We picked up the wine and went to the check out where the Cashier said I need to see your passports before I can sell you this. I was totally amazed and said "I'm 29 for gods sake" so my girlfriend took the wine and said, OK I will buy it, the cashier said I still can't sell it to you because you might give it to him when you leave the store. Our passport were buried underneath all of our other luggage in the back of the car so we left the store empty handed.

I was pretty astounded at how strictly the law was applied, I guess I can't blame the cashier as she was only doing her job, but it was a real culture shock compared to the UK where there is a really lax attitude to selling alcohol to young people.

I think I would rather carry an ID around though then have to face hordes of teenagers hanging around on street corners drinking cheap vodka straight from the bottle like you get in London

reply to post by Xiamara


Yeah... That movie thing was pretty recent.

If I remember correct you need to be 18 to even be allowed inside a coffee shop. Out here that is where you can buy your herbs. However it is not legal it still is illegal, but they allow it. You are only allowed to buy 5gr a time or carry it on you. If you get caught with more, they confiscate it and give you a fine/ ticket. You are allowed to use in the coffee shop or in your home. Outside isn't allowed officially.
The new anti- smoking law has made it mandatory for employees to have a smoke free work place which means that the one place specially in existence for smoking you can only buy from a guy or woman that spends all day in special smoke free room.
The shop owners have it harder as they are only allowed to have a stash of 100 gr on location. That could be all gone with only 20 customers.
It is also illegal to grow sell and buy for the owner. Weird huh...

Alcohol has a different set of rules.

You can by beer, and whine from 16 years old. Stronger and you need to be 18.

In stores you must identify yourself until you are 20 to prevent selling alcohol to kids that look older.

I still am asked to ID myself and I'm 28 in a couple of days how cool is that ? I hope I still look that young at 50

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


Ontario alcohol laws are no alcohol until age 19. Unless its under 1%. Parents are allowed to give children alcohol at any age in a restaurant but that child must provide legitimate ID, and its at servers discretion.

Alcohol is monitored by the LCBO (liquor Control Board Ontario) and can only be sold by the LCBO or the Beer store that just sells beer. LCBO employees are at full discretion to deny you alcohol if they suspect you to be selling you young people. Which means they can deny anyone they feel like. Which to me is absurd. If they think you are buying too much and are suspicious they can automatically say no and ask you to leave the premises. So essentially you can get banned from that location for a short period of time. For someone who doesn't own a car its quite difficult since alcohol cannot be transported on any public vehicle. Meaning, If caught by transportation security they have the discretion to not only confiscate my alcohol but in addition fine me under the suspicion of drinking in public. If caught with underage people the fine goes up and additional fines can be given.

reply to post by Xiamara


We can buy beer 5% and whine from 5 to 15 or something
at our common grocery shops and when you cross the border into Belium or France you can even by strong liquor ar gas stations.

For Alcohol above 11 or 12 % we got designated sale points or liquor stores called : slijterij. sounds like Sly-ter-ry

We are allowed to transport our liquor as long as it is unopened.
Although I saw on tv that cops stopped a guy that was drinking a beer in his car and made him do a test. It turned out H did not drink more then allowed and was free to go without any consequences.

It is illegal to be publically drunk.

That's about it.

I quit tending bar in Ontario because the liabilities are staggering.
Tar-benders who were ultimately found not guilty have lost everything because of not being able to work while being stuck in the limbo of court time. Let alone what happens if you are found guilty.

Not only that: if I "cut someone off" or refuse to serve them because they are obviously too drunk, or high on some other legal or illegal drugs, they often start swinging;
( bad move for them it has always turned out)
and I sure am sick of that action.

If I were to be caught serving a minor in a bar, that would be an automatic one week suspension for the liquor license, and everyone in the bar would be out of work for one week for each infraction.

If I were to serve someone who had an alcohol related accident I am open to being sued by everyone connected to the driver plus libel for 10 % of what the bar also would get sued for.

Years ago the Liquer inspecter for the area I live in came to us and told us they were going to destroy the Bar business in Ontario and we should all look for another career, so I became a sound and light technician.
(among many other things)

My friendly advice is to realise the way it is, and just play accordingly.
Realise the liabilities that providing alcohol to anyone applies to you and the liquer sales people...and avoid those consequences, and realise the law as it applies to you as a consumer...
and play safe.
PS know this: you don't have to be driving to be charged, sitting in the bar while over the legal limit, or walking can get you charged...and also now no alcohol while driving while under 21 years of age.

I don't mean to be talking down, its just been my experience most people don't know
Having said that,
Ontario has very minimal deaths from drinking and/or driving, but we have the boringest bar and music business in the free world.


[edit on 22-8-2010 by Danbones]

reply to post by Danbones


This is what I mean the seller should not be held responsible for the actions of user. It's passing the blame. I think yes bartenders have a responsibility to take the keys away from drunks and provide a cab, but if they slip up it should be the fault of the user. Underage drinking should be charged to the drinker not the seller. Its like saying suing a the cashier at a grocery store, because you chocked on your food when eating it. Or suing them because you knowingly ate something that caused an allergic reaction. Users discretion, if you choose to drink underage or violate laws its YOUR choice not the bartenders.

Just my opinions..

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


Mooi weer een Nederlander te zien. Hoe gaat et, Sinter Klaas? Es eer ook ein zwatte Piet op het forum?

Anyway, I have to agree with Sinter Klaas. The rules in the Netherlands are a bit strange regarding 'herbs' but they do work quite well.

There is a lot of drug awareness that I remember having during School there for both alcohol and marijuana. Nevertheless, I feel that it's the hard drugs and especially alcohol that are responsible for the majority of the accidents and tragedies.

As for who is responsible. Sadly in today's society of greed, businesses are always trying to protect themselves from lawsuits first and foremost. There's a constant tug of war between the supply and the demand in terms of legalities. I do, however, find it that those that are seeking the product are ultimately responsible for their actions. The bar tender will still need a fine of some kind or a reprimand/punishment but it should not be so severe.

Bar tending is a stressful job and you can't always realize how old someone is on a super busy night. There's also plenty of fake IDs and other tricks people use to get access to things they shouldn't get.

reply to post by Xiamara

Now while I don't disagree with you...
the trouble is some people are freaking tres stupid.
I worked a bar opening a couple of years ago ( as security).
There were seven cruisers lined up out side in the exit frrom the parking lot
At closing time, we were giving free cab rides home to anyone we served.

Quite a few of the people leaving told us to" bite me don't tell me what to do" and got into their cars, and drove straight into drunk driving charges.

A couple of dummies even tried to swing at us for even suggesting they might want to take a look acroos the parking lot, and maybe take the free cab.

Booze shuts down large sections of the human brain and some people just don't get that they don't have the right to put other innocent people in danger. I have been in seven car accidents caused by drunk drivers in other cars, while the driver in the cars I was in was sober.

Again having said that, Ontario has killed the bar business in Ontario and we have the most boring night life on the planet...
Which is why everyone goes to their cottages to drink.

I wish it was less restrictive my self,
but I wouldn't be serving
Id be partying.


[edit on 22-8-2010 by Danbones]

Totally agree with you Ontario's bars suck. The bar scene died when all the protocols went up. The only way to party is to do it in your own home and hope the cops don't come to break it up.

heck i am 44 and have been carded for cigs lol.
But if you want a really funny story here yea go.
I walked up to a convenience store counter and asked for cigs as the girl was reaching for and went to hand them to me i looked her in the eye and said .(you know I am not 18 !) which as i say i am 44 so it was the truth.
anyway she stood there a second with a glazed look in her eyes then ask for my id lololol.
The point is by telling her I wasn't 18 her mind automatically went to oo must be under age lolo as that is drilled into them lol

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
reply to post by Xiamara

 

We can buy beer 5% and whine from 5 to 15 or something
at our common grocery shops

You know what's crazy, you can only buy liquor at the LCBO or "The Beer Store" here in Ontario. But climb in your car, drive 4hrs into Quebec, and you can also buy from grocery / convenience stores. Go figure hey?

Its a sad state of affairs, but if Quebec ever were to separate we'ed sure miss Montreal I'll tell you.