Christians 100% Nonbelievers 0%

reply to post by Zmurfix


Hey thanks Zmur!

I am having a lot of trouble here!

God used to be a wrathful type of fella, then he realised the error of his ways and decided to turn over a new leaf.

He got mellow in his old age like most folks. So then he says I know I'll send my son down to teach people about my life change, and we treated him the only way we know how, by murdering him good.

Then God said 'screw you guys I'm going home' and yay he left us and this is why the Earth now sucks.

As it was written by me 3 minutes ago.

[edit on 2-8-2010 by Big Raging Loner]

This might be helpful, but hard to understand or accept. There are two Gods mentioned in the Bible. God and Lord God.

God is the one who creates the heaven and the earth. The God who lets earth and the sea bring forth a all the living plants and creatures. God created Man in his image. In his image he created man as male and female.

In Genesis chapter 1. God is described as a spirit. God gave "the man creature" his spirit.

In Genesis chapter 2 verse 4. Lord God appears and takes the credit for what God has done in Genesis Chapter 1.

Now, Pay attention to this verse! I have underlined the sentence you must pay attention to.

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

What this verse is telling you is that the plants and the herbs were already growing as God had explained it in chapter 1. Lord God is confusing everyone with the rest of the verse. Man already existed at this stage.

In the next verse, a mist comes up from the earth and waters the whole face of the ground.

Than Lord God forms Man of the dust on the ground verse 7. Than Lord God planted a garden East wards in the Eden: verse 8?

If you read verse 8: properly. Lord God never created the Garden of Eden, but planted a Garden east wards in the Garden of Eden that already existed.

Verse 8.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Now, The Bible talks about the Giants " The nephilims" it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Lord God brought his angles to live with Man.

Verse 7.

Lord God forms man of the dust on the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Before anyone gets the Idea that I am "Christian Bashing", please read carefully.If you believe in conducting your self by the ten comandments and do, please don't make this about you.
This post is not about you.

I had been working with a fundie for the last few years, and he had attempted the explain to me constantly that he and his would be going to heaven because of literal belief in the bible.

Every time his behavior was in contrast to the ten Commandments I would politely point out: "So how come conducting your self by the Ten Commandments has nothing to do with it?"
For instance when he was caught "fibbing" about a mistake he had made on the job to escape taking responsibility for it.
These were brotherly conversations as I was trying to educate him on how to avoid painful situations that he was creating, when the simple admission would have satisfied the supervisor.

He would maintain Jesus died for his sins and he was going to heaven because of his literal belief in the bible.

"Let me give you a bible" he would say...
He was constantly trying to save me.
"No thanks" I would reply

So, Jesus died to absolve him of his sins, some Christians get forgiveness in confession...Oh, they aren't Christians he would say". He was a protestant type fundy...Catholics aren't Christians apparently...
But anyway...

Not having to take responsibility for your actions creates a situation where certain behaviors against fellow men are permissible when in good conscience they are not...
His attitude against Gays and Catholics and Muslims and NDNs and "those not of the body"
was plainly dogmatic to say the least.
The diatribes and invective regarding "Liberals" rivals the best of the comments about them made here on ATS

Once they have you believing in things that couldn't possibly be true they have you right where they want you. You will have the attitude you are told to have.
You will vote the way you are told, You will go to war with who you are told...you will behave towards others the way you are told...you will send money to whom you are told...you will justify things that have no justification, all to the benefit of the teller.

Now you will violate the ten commandments without guilt at the direction of the teller.

Well, that's just dandy.
Does the word "cult" come to mind?
It does when you are not of the body




[edit on 2-8-2010 by Danbones]

reply to post by Big Raging Loner


Yes, they behaved just like people - this is why you have to believe in your own thing, whatever that is.

reply to post by catwhoknows


The doctrine of the trinity is what you appear to be having problems with. I believe we each need to seek truth for ourselves so I suggest you do some online research on the truth of the doctrine of the trinity and what early church fathers said about it.That would help you to decide for yourself what you believe rather than be spoon fed what someone else thinks. The Bible tells. readers to study. The same still applies to us today. I suggest researching the trinity as a good place to start.Seek the truth.

Originally posted by catwhoknows
Thanks for your replies but I am still left wondering.

Why is Jesus gentle and kind, God is saying "I am judging you", and I still don't know who the holy spirit is.

OK, I am still sticking to Jesus - you can't go wrong there.

So, help others, love others and forgive others - can't be wrong.

No its not wrong to help and forgive others, however in line with the question here a closer examination of Jesus really does show something other than the urban legend ect. Some folks just cant get over the fact that reality does not mesh up with common understanding about Jesus.

A very simplistic way of understanding the Trinty is to think of Water, Ice, and Steam, all are H2O, but in different forms. Each has it own funtion but is the same as the other.

reply to post by brokedown


dont ask me why but when i read your thread it may me think of this passage.....

1 John 5

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

I am not what most would call a christian, I believe in Jesus and I believe in what he tried to teach us but I do not follow any church or their doctrines. This is only an example of how I see the trinity.
We are each made in the image of God, so like God we are made of three parts.
A body
A soul and
A spirit.
According to the bible, everything on earth is a living soul, even the rocks and the trees. These living souls do not have a spirit, only man has a spirit.
When God created man he gave him free will, man at this time was a body and a soul. Man had a choice of what spirit he would chose. Man could choose the spirit of God (the holy spirit/ghost) or the spirit of Lucifer who God gave this world too.
Man chose the spirit of Lucifer in the Garden of Eden. All have been born with that spirit every since that time.
Man still has free will and we have the ability to change our spirit. We can choose to follow Jesus or not and that is our choice alone as an individual.
The Trinity is one God and consists of a body, Jesus-a soul,God and a spirit-the holy spirit/ghost.
Deciding to except the spirit of God, becoming a christian, does not make a person perfect, It does not mean that you will not make mistakes. Being a christian means that you will try to do what is right and will try to make yourself into a better person.
The problem is that non Christians believe that you should be perfect. Non believers think that you should instantly be perfect, never curse, never make a mistake, never do anything wrong. That is why they are so critical of Christians. The non believers will pay little attention to someone who cusses constantly but they will throw a fit if a christian says damn, or make any little mistake that proves that he is not perfect.

Originally posted by ammilam
God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are considered one in the same. Which, personally, I don't understand the whole concept either because in the bible God is shown as a wrathful being, and should be feared. Jesus is supposed to be God in the flesh, but also his only son. Who is also a loving individual. The holy ghost is the incarnation of God in ones self. Also Jesus is seen as ones ticket into heaven, and most christians believe they must "accept Jesus into their heart" in order to walk into the white pearly gates. None of this really makes since to me. I grew up in a christian home, with these beliefs practically scared into me. That I should fear God, and for some odd reason accept himself, who is also his son, into my heart, and then by some crazy miracle no matter what I do, I'll be ok.. So according to that a person could kill someone, or commit some crazy sin, and still be forgiven and allowed into heaven. None of it makes since to me... So I don't know what to tell ya.

If you believe that about the Father then you're basically "cherry-picking" His revealed attributes. Or to put it another way, you're only acknowledging attributes 1-4 of the Father and denying attributes 5-10. And it's true, Jesus came to Earth to redeem man. It says "I have not come to condemn the world, but to redeem it."

Look at it this way, Jesus was sent to Earth by the Father to save the world from it's sin, and Jesus was fulfilling His assigned mission. But if you look at Revelation, the cute, cuddly Jesus is not coming back at Armageddon in the same manner as before, He's coming back very pissed off, and this time He is swinging the hammer on all unGodliness and unrighteousness.

Originally posted by brokedown
A very simplistic way of understanding the Trinty is to think of Water, Ice, and Steam, all are H2O, but in different forms. Each has it own funtion but is the same as the other.

That's a bad analogy. The Trinity, (Godhead) is best explained this way. People are made up of a soul, spirit, and body. All 3 are different, yet all three make up ONE person. When a person dies, their spirit and soul moves on, the body turns to dust. No one believes they are 3 different people do they? Of course not, but we can see that we are all one person who is comprised of 3 "persons".

That is precisely why Jesus said at creation 'let US make man in OUR image'.

Originally posted by catwhoknows
But my problem is that Jesus is all about love and forgiveness, but God is about punishment.

well, if you look at the progression of man and ideas from the start of the bible to the end, there is definitely an evolution and maturation that takes place.

if GOD at first had to punish as part of a disciplinary plan with the goal being man's eventual ability to self-rule within the ideals that GOD set forth with the statement of LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR, then that makes sense.

until you were grown up enough to make the right decisions, your parents sought to help you learn how. this is discipline. when you know better and yet persist with the wrong decisions, you are going to get punished. that's because you obviously need a little drastic snap-to! that's just natural.

being a horrible person and murdering people is not the same thing as punishment or discipline. it is just being selfish and violent.

we cannot say that it is unfair for GOD to kill people because they wouldn't have life in the first place if it weren't for GOD.
also, GOD works on a larger scale than humans do and so things might sometimes seem out of proportion on an individual basis.

the biggest problem with the kind of confusion you are sharing is organized religion. according to the natural evolution of the human spirit/soul, we should be getting close to self-government and flawless self-discipline. and maybe we are, but we don't have the chance to demonstrate this because religion refuses to evolve and keeps the same mindset of the Old Testament!

even though christianity is founded on the life and death of Jesus, it seems to still be stuck in the life and death of Moses, if not literally, then certainly theoretically. the idea being that we are not capable of christhood or even that such a thing does not exist and there is no christ but Jesus Christ.

that's not the way things are supposed to go. the bible says as much but any original thinking about the message in the bible is suppressed within the confines of traditional religion.

traditional religion can NOT believe in evolution because if it were admitted as being a valid and actual process, the entire standing doctrine of the religious establishment would be undermined and the system would crumble.

that system is spiritual for many but for some within it, it is economic - it is literally their livelihood! not necessarily to be dishonest in the way of attaining wealth but just like all the rest of us - to simply make a living!

So, could someone please enlighten me - why are God/Jesus/the holy ghost one and the same?

And who or what is the holy ghost?

i'm not a christian or a trinitarian although i know there is great metaphysical import in the idea of THREE as ONE.

but in my view, i see it more as the nuclear family - the new freshness of a father, mother and their first baby.

when a man and woman marry, they become one instead of two.
and then they make a baby from their one-ness and so logically, this baby is a third yet is directly derived from the one that are the parents...who used to be two but now are one.

the holy spirit might be the mother - the shekinah, the breath of life, the comforter.

our mothers are our source of comfort
our mothers or our wives, even daughters.
females, at any rate.

no one can logically deny that but they will.

just watch and see!

Originally posted by catwhoknows

Here is a scenario - what if it turns out that if you helped your brother and were generally nice - that maybe you were a nice person.

Maybe. I believe i'm a morally sound person. Maybe i hit my brother the next day. But morality is subjective, like "abortion is bad because it kills a human" or a more rational approach "abortion is ethical, because the baby would have had a bad life, or maybe the victim was raped" There's two sides to every story. Like in some tribes it being "right" or "good" to cannibilize through religion theories or by survival.

What if it turned out that if you were horrible to people, and/or murdered them - maybe you were a bad person.

Well i, personally, wouldn't murder anyone. But just because i did a few bad things in my life doesn't make me a bad person, especially if i have learned from them. Forgiving my self if i have learned of my wrong doing, and see the pain i have caused, and feeling guilt for it.

But if i was horrible to people, conscious or unware of my doing, i would seek forgiveness from the people i wronged when i understand through reason and empathy, social understand that i have been unpleasant to my fellow human beings; through a emotional sense of guilt and human empathy.

You could donate to charity and then the next day murder someone who had an affair with your wife.

Is that person a half good/half bad person? No because it's not as easy as that

Where would we put Jesus in this scenario?

In the bible, but no where in this scenario, irrelevant: Jesus is irrelevant to human morality. It wouldn't teach anyone the reason, or the logic of actions, the consequences, the social obligations we all hold, the emapthy we have, the sympathy in order to act with "moral" accordance.

It would teach the deluded that Jesus died for our "sins". Well theres no proof he was the son of God, and if any other man said he died for MY sins - I would think he was a crazy man, we are all responsible for ourselves.

The teachings, or at least some of the more humane teachings are a matter of philosopy and understand which can be reasoned with without needing to believe miracles, emaculate conception and ressurection.

Jesus always loves, always forgives, and always turns you to God.

Jesus teaches us to love our enemies, enemies are not to be adorned or sympathised with, i'm not going to love a radical islamist, thankyou very much. Forgiveness depends on whether you feel the forgiveness is due, i won't forgive a killer if he carries on killing. Forgiveness is earnt, not granted.

Jesus says repent.

So what? Hitler said repent from the Jews. I'm not going to repent to what Jesus preached, but show my intuition, intelligence, reason but most importantly compassion when interacting with people.

But my problem is that Jesus is all about love and forgiveness, but God is about punishment.

I believe your right if your talking about the comparison of the character Jesus and the alledged present universal dictator God (in your particular scripture).

Jesus was percieved as more merciful than this tyranous and jelous God. Whether i believe the real TRUTH of the story is another matter.

...A story in which an invisble God sacrificed his son, in order to cleanse us of our sins.... did a pretty good job, didn't he? And all this after a good 50,000+ since man was on earth he decided to introduce a "savior"

So, could someone please enlighten me - why are God/Jesus/the holy ghost one and the same?

My question is why would anyone believe this story over any other abrahamic religion?............... whether it be Islam, Chritianity (and its many forms) or Juduism, its all contructed, dictorial absolutism all with different fantasies and stories.... it demands itself to be true, its core belief is to not deny that truth? when there is no evidentry truth, just literature and preachings of the characters within.

No thanks, i don't want any of it, i appreciate Jesus words and actions (except suicide for our sake, lol) but that doesn't mean i believe in Jesus, or think he the right to say he died for my "sins"

As if men who wrote the bible could reveal "wisdom" at a time in history like that, when we knew nothing of the universe, could reveal such wisdom, such wisdom like we know what is beyond the skies, we KNOW there is a God, when they didn't even know what caused bacteria. And their supposed perfect moral guides are severly out of date, Jesus preached love, but the bible teaches gay love, is bad? erM? contradiction?

And who or what is the holy ghost?

Who really is the Holy Father? who really is the Holy Spirit? a myth. all regarding deities and fictional creations present abrahamic scripture and few other faith based cults.