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My absolute "last" post on the subject of LEOs!

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posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 04:35 PM
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cool story bro.

But I hate it when people just post bad things about cops. Yes, not all cops are bad. My bro is a cop and an ex-marine. He didn't let the pressure of the marines get to him so why should he allow the pressure of being a cop get to him? I take it personally when people say all cops are bad. I should just say all white cops are bad cause that is what mostly seen on video tapes.




posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by seeashrink
 

To me this speaks less about police corruption and more about the inequality of equality laws. Women are favoured in pretty much all law regarding the sexes. A woman makes an accusation against a man and that man is either fired or goign to prison. A man makes an acccusation against a woman and he is laughed at and no doubt she'll turn it around on him pretty fast.

It's sad the laws are so easily abused with a few tears.

I hope your wife recovers.



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by whatukno
I feel for you, I know quite a lot of cops that are good honest people that are quite professional and do their jobs right.

I have noticed a lot of anti cop posts here on ATS and it's quite unfair. I would say that for every report of abuse by the police that makes its way to threads here there are 10 unreported acts of civility and professionalism above and beyond the call of duty preformed by your average cop.

But no one is going to post those stories, do you want to know why?

Because no one films a cop being a nice guy, no one films a cop actually listening to a suspect and figuring out that they haven't done anything wrong. No one will film a cop helping someone out of the goodness of their heart. Why should they? That's what cops are supposed to do.

It's a thankless job, I understand that. I appreciate what cops do. But in the court of ATS public opinion, cops are all bad. (I think many of these posts are made cause a cop took someones pot away once.)

Keep the faith, some of us appreciate what you do for your community.


I too am sorry that what happened to you seeashrink has happened. Pride in one's Modus Operendi is a big part of a person's success in this life - I hope that you can find that pride once again, in whatever you do.

On the subject matter I quoted here, I would like to bring to the attention of LEOs reading this to take the above quote and apply the sense behind the comment towards criminals... or should I say, perported criminals.

I'm not talking about your every day, serial killing, baby eating, woman bashing, gangster murderer types, the ones that are in prison more than they're out in society and being a productive citizen. I'm talking about the ones that have to go to the county for 6 months over a shoplifting charge, or one that casually sells drugs, or even the one that has beat someone down so bad they have to be charged...

Believe it or not, many of these people that operate outside of 'the law' as it's known, are decent people too, when they don't have to put on the hat that they operate outside of legal parameters with.

Drug Dealers provide a service to a sickness that exists within society that will find its way in regardless of people's wishes. People who use drugs to cope with a corruption within themselves will find a way to do so, or the silence that drug use brings to these people won't occur, and they'll erupt somehow - I've seen it. Child Abuse, Domestic Violence, Assault and Battery, even murder - because the drug they depended upon wasn't available.

They're sick, and they need to be educated - it's a simple solution but not for a complicated problem.

Both the drug dealer and the drug user are people. the user is ill. the dealer is broke. The user can't control their mental or emotional issues without drugs. The dealer can't get a job because they're uneducated.

When the user is 'high', you'll see them help other people, and find that they're happy - for the most part. There are those that have progressed into a degraded state of mind that often go the way of recidivistic criminality when they've all but given up. Those types can be dangerous, and again, they are not the one's I'm addressing here.

The dealer on the other hand, if they are still business minded, even though uneducated, will generate enough income to support his family with the clothes, food, and even education they need... even educations that the dealer themselves never were given the chance in thier lives to get.

True, a good dealer will carry a weapon, because of the competition that exists out there , and from time to time that weapon will have to come out to defend that dealer from either being murdered themselves, or robbed by the users they deal to.

That is the dark side of reality people - it won't go away any time soon. But being that a given, and the thought or idea of this 'criminal' as being sub human or even a waste of skin is absolutely wrong!

Once that 'criminal' is brought to 'justice', the prejudice against them by society is astounding. This 'criminal' may have even opened doors for the elderly, went to church when they could, loved thier families - more than some 'honest and reliable' corporate types! and even watched out for folks in thier neighborhoods and protected them from outside intrusive criminal elements...

They may have handed the disabled vietnam vet a twenty while encountering the vet on the corner holding a sign up that said they would work for food...

Brought food to the homeless...

helped sick people get medical help...

Assisted a police officer who had just been sideswiped by a hit and run driver, by bringing out a clean towel and bowl of clean water for that officer to address his wounds with... while the gathering 'good citizen' crowd just sat there and stares at the bleeding officer.

The world we live in is a complex and diverse intercommunal conglomerate of people of all shapes, sizes, and colors, with all sorts of cultures, ideas, beliefs, and lifestyles.

NOTHING should ever comit the crime of unjust prejudice that leads to a supressive violation of those people's right to exist in happiness by those who do not like or agree with what they do, how they think, or what they believe. Believe it or not, that is the universal law, as it exists under God. It is the very reason why what we know as the devil still exists, and why even when powerful enough to do so themselves, archangels have even given the power to rebuke another, to thier Creator.

We as God's children must come to perfectly understand this concept - the one known as Free Will - if we are to ascend into the creature's we were originally created to become. Creators....

Let the one who has understanding use discenment with what I've just revealed.



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by seeashrink
...I have always been proud to be an LEO and I have always been proud of the job I do. But, the last couple of years I have become distressed and discouraged about the job because of the hatred of police that exist now. If I were offered a job tomorrow making what I am making now doing something else, I would probably take it, and I say that with great sadness...


I appreciate the story you related. It took courage to do that.

My only comment revolves around the statement you made regarding the hatred of LEOs that exists now. The reason for that hatred is not because the public is just hateful, you know? It is because many in the public relm have encountered the same or similar treatment you have from so called "peace officers".

It is now safe to assume that most cops are not to be trusted and avoided if possible, IMO. No more image of a cop helping someone in need exists. Too bad. But the image problem was self-inflicted.



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 05:50 PM
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reply to post by seeashrink
 




Yes, I am a Police Officer. I have been for over 11 years now I guess.

So you are a police officer, not were right?


he told me that my services were no longer needed and fired me.

But you were fired?


I have always been proud to be an LEO and I have always been proud of the job I do. But, the last couple of years I have become distressed and discouraged about the job because of the hatred of police that exist now. If I were offered a job tomorrow making what I am making now doing something else, I would probably take it, and I say that with great sadness.

And here at the end of the story you are still a police officer?

Am i missing something here?
If you were fired why are you still a police officer?

And as others have said, it is hard to really take anything away from the story if you dont even tell all of it and refuse to answer any questions reguarding it. Poor form there OP.



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 06:43 PM
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reply to post by seeashrink
 


I'm sorry to hear about what you went through. It sounds like a truly disgusting conflict of interest on the Sheriff's and the arresting/invading officers' parts. And the fact that being an ex-cop STILL leaves you without justice is also disgusting of the system.

I personally have had a number of negative experiences with cops. And I can't speak for others but I don't believe individual cops are the problem per se. Just as you've explained, a police officer can get caught up in the brutality and corruption of the system just the same as anybody else. And this brings me to a larger point about law enforcement in general- THE WHOLE SYSTEM is inherently corrupting. When you give ordinary (or even extraordinary) men/women that kind of power over otherwise equal human beings, you're just asking for trouble. There are plenty of pathological, careless, immature, bigoted, and/or hot-headed people out there who should NOT wear the badge, but even BEYOND that, a sane, kind, decent person can become psychologically CHANGED by holding such authority over others. Not to mention they are beholden to the system/laws already in place rather than their own ethics.

A very interesting study was done in the 70's at Stanford that put participants in prisoner/guard roles and observed the power/submission dynamics that played out:

en.wikipedia.org...

Here is another conducted by the BBC as more of a televised prison experiment. Of course their initial setup was different than Zimbardo's:

www.bbcprisonstudy.org...



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 07:09 PM
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I'm not fond of police officers, but I have to say that was very wrong what happened, and I'm on your side on that one. Do you suppose these officers had some sort of grudge from the beginning?



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 07:46 PM
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Well, now that I have read through the thread again and got some more input from other members, I have a question for everyone.

It seems like the OP has proven my point that this is a systemic problem.

Do you not also think this?

He has pretty much defined his department as exactly everyone has seen in numerous other threads. That the police will do anything they want with no repercussions. Yes, that is a blanket statement also. Yes, police that do things like the recent Oakland shooting will get sentences, but here is a question, what would of happened if there was no video.

My recent thread on the SOL police department as case in point on the systemic problem.

I think the situation is not that there are not good officers in the departments out there, but why they are not calling out the very system for the systemic nature of the abuses going on.

The more I think about it, the more I could care less about the problem this officer has come across.

I would like to say, how does it feel being treated like the rest of us?




posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 07:47 PM
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I feel for you, man. It's horrible when you're at the effect of people with no internal moral compass - just all EGO. Reminds me of a story that aired about a cop in Cape Cod who was shot in the face by a scumbag. But the scumbag had everyone scared of him or he had paid them off or both. So the cop gets shot, knows scumbag did it and scumbag walks. The cop survives and he and his family live in fear of retribution by scumbag. They eventually have to move bcause the PD doesn't want to pay to protect them anymore! The cop's family crumbles. Years later Scumbag's family has a meltdown and they all start outing each other. Scumbag is fingered as the cop shooter, but guess what?
The statue of limitations has run out and scumbag can't be prosecuted. Scumbag ends up in an institution with a brain wasting disease. Too nice an ending for a cop shooter in my opinion. But what about that PD??????????
Didn't even look out for their own



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 07:50 PM
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reply to post by sicklecell
 

Ummm...he got another job as a police officer.



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 07:53 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 

It may be a systemic problem, buy you, my friend, have a long way to go to proving your allegation of 80% corruption. You also fail to acknowledge that sometimes it's the politics that have nothing to do with the force per se that is in many cases at the core of the problem...the mayors' and governors' offices and their corrupt political maneuverings with corporate and other political factions. The "white shirts" and their bosses.



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by sicklecell
 

I entitled this, "my absolute last post of the subject of LEOs". Perhaps I have broken one of my own rules on posting. I've always felt that people that used superlatives in their titles, i.e. "absolute proof" "undeniable proof", etc, etc were setting themselves up for failure and here I have gone and done it myself. I don't want to appear wishy-washy but it seems a disservice not to elaborate on the story and to help clear up some misunderstandings. Some of you are not going to be satisfied regardless of what is said because your mind is made up and you don't want to be confused with the facts. Having said that, I will try to address some to the questions and concerns that have been posted.

First of all, I have nothing to hide. As far as I know I'm not sleeping with anyone on here nor am I trying to impress anyone. You will just have to take my word for it because that is the nature of the internet. It just is what it is.

If you will Google Jennifer Cranford vs Stanly Co. Sheriff's Office, it is public record. You may also want to Google Sheriff Tony Frick, Jeffery Bradford, and Dennis Rickard. The case is over and we settled for an amount that added insult to injury just to keep from walking away with nothing. Justice was not served.

Yes, I am still an LEO in the same county but in a small municipality called Badin, NC. Look us up and you will see my name under Master Police Officer. I am the assistant to the Chief in this small town. The Sheriff in question is no longer Sheriff. He lost in the 2006 election. He ran this year but did not make it out of the primary. This Sheriff was very vulnerable to flattery, in other words...brown nosing. When I first entered law enforcement this guy was my training officer with a larger municipality and we worked together for a year and became good friends. I left law enforcement for the low pay of the time and went back into the military.
When I got out of the military and got back to NC after a few years, I heard that he had made Sheriff and as I wanted to get back into law enforcement I saw this as my opportunity, so I went to see him. He gladly hired me back on and sent me back through rookie school. He made me a supervisor in his jail. You could say that is where my trouble first started. You wanted details, so you are going to get them. I'm sorry for the length of this post. The high ranking deputy that was on the deck of my girlfriend's house that day was my supervisor in the jail. His wife worked for him in the jail but was assigned to me. I immediatley saw this as a problem and I approached him about it. He said that is would not be an issue. It was. She was constantly trying to undermine my position by running to her husband with every decision I made. This caused a great deal of tension between me and my supervisor. He did not like me because I was by the book and he was not. I used the chain of command by discussing it with my supervisor. He did not give me satisfaction, so I informed him that I would be talking to his superior which was a captain. The Captain R.O.A.D. (retired on active duty) and did not want any part of it. I then went to the Chief Deputy with the Captain's blessing and the Chief Deputy suggested I talk to the Sheriff, which I did. The Sheriff moved me to a baliff in the courthouse and eventually to a patrol position which is where I wanted to be anyway. I warned the Sheriff that the supervisor in the jail was going to cause him some grief some day and he did.
While on the road I was promoted to corporal and made assistant shift supervisor for my squad. Again, I was by the book and it caused me problems with my sergeant. As I said, the Sheriff was vulnerable to flattery. There was a rookie on my squad who was still going through rookie school but never the less had been sworn by the Sheriff so he had all the powers of a deputy. He lived in the Sheriff's guest house. He was what we refer to as the "golden child". That is when someone is so close the Sheriff he can do no wrong. He came to work, when he wanted to. Would not stay in his assigned zone and would not adhere to any policies and basically did what he wanted to do. When I tried to put a stop to this I became the enemy. My sergeant let the little guy get away with anything and was also close to the Sheriff. So I had this guy, my sergeant, the bimbo (who I will address more later), the jail supervisor and his wife all wanting me gone for no other reason than that I had standards and the nads to back those standards up.

Allow me to give you the status of all these people involved now:
The jail supervisor: Fired from the SO for running against the Sheriff 4 years ago.
The sergeant that was with the supervisor on the deck that fateful day: Fired for soliciting and having sex on duty. He was also investigated for molesting his own children.
The Golden Child: Fired for leaving the scene of an accident while driving drunk and possibly messing with the Sheriff's wife (I can't confirm that). Every once in a while a warrant appears for something else he's done.
My road sergeant: Quit when the Sheriff loss the election because he knew the upcoming Sheriff would fire him for past behaviors.
The Bimbo: She quit and went to another agency and tried to sue them for some type of sexual something. She told everyone that she had implants and that they were bought and paid for from a lawsuit she had with a department before she came to our Sheriff's office. Last I heard, she was working for a jewelry store in a mall.

Let's talk about the bimbo and why I refer to her as such. This girl would take off her shirt and run up and down the hallways of the Sheriff's office with a tight Micky Mouse T-shirt on chasing and being chased by some of the other deputies like it was the tenth grade in high school. When she was on the radio, she would talk real breathy like Marilyn Monroe singing happy birthday to JFK. She was a joke. I can count the times that I have referred to a female as a bimbo on one hand. There is no other way to describe her. If you will notice in the original OP, I stated that not all women were bimbos. I have no problem with women in any career field.

Continued



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 07:56 PM
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Listen, you folks are being had by this op.

Please allow me to explain how it works.

A LEO no matter what the infraction, be it Sexual Discrimination, Conduct unbecoming, murder. It matters not...

Under The policeman's bill of rights, Any disciplinary action taken on a Peace Officer, Corrections Officer, Deputy Sheriff is done by a Disciplinary board. No Sheriff, Chief or any other Superior Officer can firer an active duty LEO.

The Chief or Sheriff in this case may suspend said Officer [usually with pay] Till said Discipline board is convened. The Dept Superior Office brings his case forward to The disciplinary board where the Defendant [LEO] is Present and represented with a Union Lawyer and High Ranking Union Officials [typically the President of the local F.O.P].

The Case is then brought forward, The discipline Board decides on guilt and recommended punishment. [if found guilty of said charges]

The Union Lawyer appeals, the case then goes to State Arbitration. Arbitration then reviews the case. Then the State Arbitrator Makes Judgment, Either deciding the case stands, reduces punishment, or dismisses all charges.

This process takes months, sometimes years [in some cases].


The statement that Deputy Sheriffs showed up at his girlfriends house to fire her is absolutely Laughable to anyone that has been involved in Enforcement for even a week.

In No way does the original poster Shrink boy, or whatever his name is, is telling the truth to you good people.

This is the way discipline is doled out throughout the Country.

By reading the post, it reads like a bored 16yr old having some fun at the expense of good folks.


Also I find the compassion from some of repliers compelling. But I wanted to bring this into light for you.



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 08:07 PM
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reply to post by seeashrink
 


Its sad but this is happening allot and they are doing it to get the good cops out, they are also buying out the better ones for cheap rookies. If I was a cop, I would have my whole house on video 24-7 and be armed at all times whether it is mine or the departments gun.

I think I would have shot them or at least got the drop on them the minute they stepped into the house un-invited because you never know what the heck they are going to pull on you.

I know thats easy for me to say but I'm good friends with a recently retired sheriff and other great cops.



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 08:14 PM
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reply to post by seeashrink
 


All you "good cops" have a serious problem. I'm not saying you are not in fact a good cop but the policies adopted by almost every dept in the country at the same time are ruining your reputation.

It seems that police depts en mass have adopted these same policies:

-Heavy handedness in dealing with people.

-Hiring authoritarian goons

-writing ridiculous amounts of traffic citations

-shooting pets

-tazering children, elderly and disabled people

-militarizing departments with armored personnel carriers tanks, machine guns ect.

-Demanding total respect for the most insane orders or punishment is dealt on the spot, some people get executed for momentary disobedience.

Now, I know not every cop follows the rules of the totalitarian jackboot guide, but most do.

It is designed this way to get the people to oppose the police, and for the police to disrespect the people.

It is another level of division. Keep the people and enforcers divided.

Unfortunately, this is not China, and Americans are armed to the teeth, and getting real pissed, and there are a lot more pissed armed Americans than Jackbooted idiot cops.

All I am saying is you and the other good cops better get your heads together and get TPTB to ease up a little or it is going to be bad.



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 08:22 PM
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reply to post by bull621
 


You are WAY off. seeashrink is most definitely an LEO.

Your assumptions are pretty whack...you might want to revisit them and try again.



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by seeashrink
 

Lets talk about Jennifer, my then girlfriend, now my wife. There was a much older sergeant in the Sheriff's Office that had designs on Jennifer. They had not even dated and he began telling people that they were going to get married. His kids would come to the office and talk about how Jennifer was going to be their new mother. This sergeant was also very close to the Sheriff. When Jennifer started dating me, this sergeant became angry and you could call that strike three for both of us. Just about every ranking officer in that department tried to bed Jennifer and they were all married. She would have nothing to do with any of them. The Sergeant that was on her deck that day, the one that got fired for soliciting sex on duty, said to Jennifer on one occasion, and I quote; "I WILL lick your pee hole one day". Now don't you know he enjoyed seeing her lying on the floor in handcuffs in boxer shorts and a T-shirt.

Oh, what me and the bimbo disagreed about: I went to a domestic call at the same house that I went to on an average of twice a week. I knew them by name. The man of the house was a truck driver and everytime he came home from a trip his wife would have some other young couple at the house eating his food, etc. The wife was mentally unstable and there were guns lying all over the house. Anyway the husband had returned home from a trip and there was a young married couple staying there and he wanted them gone. I arrived at the house and I did not call for backup because these were frequent flyers. I told the young married couple that they should leave because of the constant problems at that house, the mental instability, and the firearms that were all of the place. While I was doing this the Bimbo arrived on the scene and heard the conversation and proceeded to tell me in front of the client that I could not ask them to leave. I explained to her what I was doing and she stormed off back to her patrol car. After I finished with the call, I radioed the bimbo and told her to meet me somewhere. I told her that I didn't mind her questioning my judgement but that she was never to do so in front of a client and that she could do so after the call.

Some of the things that have been brought up:
I did not set my girlfriend up by letting myself into her home. I had authorization/permission from her to do so as she did my home. The other officers were there on an admin call, not criminal or civil, they had no authorization be in the home.

To the 25 year veteran officer who said this did not happen and could not happen. Well, it did, it's documented. Maybe you were a police officer at Disney World, but here in the south the FOP is just another clique. And I have never heard anything, ever, about an officer's bill of rights. Maybe I need a job where you worked. Put in a good word for me will ya. lol.

I'm not going to elaborate on those who have said that I am a crooked cop. Selling dope, taking pay offs, etc. If I was, I wouldn't be sitting here in this little town barely making ends meet.

I am known in this town for my integrity.

I'm sure that I have missed something. So, I will answer questions.
Maybe I should have said that I will no longer take part in cop bashing threads after this one, and I want. There is no sense in trying to convince a bunch of cop hating close minded people that they are wrong. Like I said there minds are made up.

Sincerely,
Seeashrink



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 08:30 PM
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reply to post by seeashrink
 


I'm very sorry you were treated the way you were. I have to say that this points to just how corrupt the police force has become and always has been.
They originated because the people of power(people with the money) locked away the food and made people think that they had to pay for it. Well some people didn't buy that line of bull and try to take back what belonged to all people.
So the people of power decided we need people to beat up people and make the people think they need us. So at first they hired groups of people, we will call them the Moffia families to beat people and in general act bad.
Next since people were becoming dependent on the government to take care of them used the police force to further enslave the people and to keep them in line and to train them to do what the government wanted them to do.
The people in power(the bad guys) win, the unfortunate truth.

>>>>This is the summary version, and it is without physical backing, and most of all it is my opinion, and it will not change no matter how often I am told that I am wrong by people dependent upon the system



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 08:41 PM
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Originally posted by seeashrink
I don't want to appear wishy-washy but it seems a disservice not to elaborate on the story and to help clear up some misunderstandings.


Thanks for taking the time to do that, after you said you wouldn't.


You could say that is where my trouble first started. You wanted details, so you are going to get them. I'm sorry for the length of this post. The high ranking deputy that was on the deck of my girlfriend's house that day was my supervisor in the jail. His wife worked for him in the jail but was assigned to me. I immediatley saw this as a problem and I approached him about it. He said that is would not be an issue. It was. She was constantly trying to undermine my position by running to her husband with every decision I made. This caused a great deal of tension between me and my supervisor. He did not like me because I was by the book and he was not. I used the chain of command by discussing it with my supervisor. He did not give me satisfaction, so I informed him that I would be talking to his superior which was a captain. The Captain R.O.A.D. (retired on active duty) and did not want any part of it. I then went to the Chief Deputy with the Captain's blessing and the Chief Deputy suggested I talk to the Sheriff, which I did.


So, outside of your original post, you were having other issues at your department. It wasn't just the original story you posted, as I suspected, there was more than meets the eye.

Oh, and I did look up your wife, per your suggestion, but the only paperwork I could find was where she wanted to make a change to her request, and where the other guys were denied a request to have the suit dropped. I could not find any final judgement in the case.

edit to fix quote




[edit on 24-7-2010 by Blanca Rose]



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 08:42 PM
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reply to post by ~Lucidity
 


Well that is kind of what I am saying. The system has gone to a point of absolute chicanery. You know that with over 600,000 statutes, if you have a confrontation with a LEO, they can come up with something.

It is no longer peace officers, it is statute enforcers.

Heck, one LEO here recently mentioned that his chief said they were going to have to push the tickets or some of them would have to be laid off.

So, what is the purpose of the LEOs again? Are they a self perpetuating entity of control and money creation/taxation or are they actually here to protect the citizenry from actual criminals?

I will bring back my definition of criminal behavior once again. A criminal is someone that has harmed another or infringed on another's rights to Life, Liberty or Property.

And yes, the politicians and mainly the bureaucrats(unlawful components to a government that is out of control) are a MAJOR component of the problems. The parenthesis component I am referring to is the systematic removal of the responsibilities of elected officials to lifetime appointed czars and the like. All of these differing bureaucracies are a major component of the problem. Where is the balance of power? Where are the checks and balances?

We always hear about these huge bureaucracies having to be created to control those evil companies out there. Do we hear about these arrest and convictions of these evil companies? Well, we get a couple every couple of years, like Bernie. But, in the scheme of things, to create these huge divisions of power to catch these guys, what happens? The cure is worse than the disease.

I am sorry all those people got ripped off from ol Bernie. I really am, maybe the people should have actually done some investigation into the scam before trusting a thief.

Question, with this whole debacle of our economy, who is actually going to jail? What than is the purpose of these new powers and controls being implemented?

Is it actually to stop these things or is it for the only thing the government knows how to do, control and tax us?

I think you know what I think it is.

Hell, I will give it to you in their own words-
Dingell: It will take some time for ObamaCare to "control the people"



[edit on 7/24/2010 by endisnighe]




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