What makes you believe?

This thread was not made to be confrontational, and this question is not rhetorical, i'm simply asking a question, any and all answers are appreciated, and this question can go for any religion you worship, if any. For example this question goes out to all Christians out there. What makes you believe in Christianity, there is absolutely no proof for it, if their was there would be no requirement for faith. So my question is, what makes you believe? In god, in heaven, in an afterlife, when there is no proof for you to believe so.



The flip side to this question is what makes you not believe? For the atheists out there why don't you believe?



Also, to the agnostics, what makes you the way you are, why are you agnostic? Why so unsure?


Please don't post angry comments, like I said this thread was not meant to be confrontational I just want an answer thanks in advance.

[edit on 20-7-2010 by XxRagingxPandaxX]

It comes down to personal revelation. My inner voice. My ability to discern the environment though my mind. I started a solipsist. Very early on. Then moved to atheism. Seemed logical. then came personal revelation of the supernatural. through ufos and specters possessing my dreams. I am very confident of my belief in christianity. There is no need for me to push it on anybody, and I can get along with anyone so long as they treat me with equal respect. So in short, logic (my own, not anyone else's) and personal revelation.

reply to post by The Endtime Warrior
But how does Christianity make sense when their is no proof, why is faith a good thing is what I guess i'm asking.

reply to post by XxRagingxPandaxX


It’s really very simple it’s called FAITH.

reply to post by XxRagingxPandaxX


Well IMO, the problem for me was not believing in christianity. it was believing that a god existed in the first place. once I understood that god existed, again through personal revelation, I was able to come to the realization that God is Love. Love is Trust. With trust comes faith. Logically it made sense to me over time, and let me tell you, it was hard to come from where I came from. Remember, solipsist originally, by the age of 6! wow and i hung on to it for awhile. This won't answer your question im sure, but I can simplify it anymore in that I came to it through my own, not by any man pushing a book in front of me.



[edit on 7/20/2010 by The Endtime Warrior]

reply to post by kevinunknown
I understand that, but do you think faith is logical?

reply to post by The Endtime Warrior
Okay but there is no proof that a god exists (or gods for that matter) so what personal revelation made you come to that conclusion, and what made you think this god was Jesus out of all the religions out there?

reply to post by XxRagingxPandaxX


its not when used in a scientific laboratory. it is when speaking of your own existence. no one can speak for you. its your faith which reigns supreme in your own mind, that is unless you are able to be moved by someone else's smooth talk or latest "discoveries".

reply to post by XxRagingxPandaxX


there is no "empirical proof" for you or anyone else on this planet, and there never will be. if there is a god (rhetorically speaking) he will reveal himself to you, make no mistake of that. if you are waiting around for science to discover all the answers to the secrets of the universe, IMO you are wasting your time. you should never live your life through someone else's discoveries and experiences. you have a life, live it!

gotta run for now, but ill be back if you post anymore questions for me.
good luck panda

It is not so much the believing or not that confuses me but how I should label myself in this context. I was brought up within strict Roman Catholic rules and began to question this faith when i was 9 year of age.

I became a total atheist for most of my life but then I nearly died and experienced a near death experience and then found myself leaning toward the spiritual side. From there came a pagan mindset because I made friends with some cool Wiccans but even so not so strong enough that I would think there are gods and goddesses out there or even that I a real pagan just someone who enjoys a Wiccan company over someone who might argue that I should “give myself to god” - hiya mama .

I believe there is an energy all around us and that our life energy, the soul is in essence directly connected to or is a part of this hidden energy and meditate enough times and you do get to experience this energy when chakras come online.

I have no clue what I am these days or what I believe in the religious context but if I was to choose then I could only call myself a carrot or a hub cap or even a cloths peg because really what is a religious label but something that just pigeon holes a person into a sub category of believer or unbeliever and in between just means you are a ditherer?

Today I believe I might reincarnate but as yet there no proof so I think it could possible but believing it probable enough to make it a part of me is still a long way off and without proof I will always doubt so I just go with the flow and look to do the right thing by myself and those around me.

My reason for believing is, there is no reason to NOT believe in Christianity. If im a Christian, i follow Gods words, pray to Jesus, etc, then when i die, i will continue to exist in heaven (hopefully). But if there isn't any gods after death, then i don't lose anything. I will just be dead, end of story. But i believe there is life after death, a heaven, a god, and his son.
I mean technically, i don't really know Antarctica exists, ive never been there, and ive only seen pictures. No one i know has been to Antarctica, so there's no proof it really exists.

reply to post by XxRagingxPandaxX

One word: consciousness.

That is the elephant in the room for hardcore materialist atheism.

Otherwise, gotta go with the Endtime Warrior on this. Personal revelations are ineffable. Not the sort of thing you can explain to another to make them believe.

I actually don't know what I believe. But I do know, from personal experience, that there is more to reality than meets the eye, and that at bottom the universe is doing more than just bouncing particle-sized billard balls around in a deterministic fashion.

Our existence is real. This seems like such an obvious statement but I find many people do not deeply grasp this. The assertion that "it's all an illusion" is clear escapism, not to mention about as faith-based and denying-the-obvious as you get.

I intend to someday organize the realizations I've been having recently and get them down in writing to the best of my ability, as a critical exercise to see if I can create a coherent system out of them.

As for this thread, I am content to say that hardcore zealots of all stripes are denying something obvious (that something depends on the specific "stripe"), and I believe that in some ways it is just this fact that makes their zealotry so hardcore.

I received personal proof. I asked for proof to God, and later on I received it. Otherwise I would still be an atheist.

reply to post by XxRagingxPandaxX


Faith has to do with the faith that we have that Christ's work for us is sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins, not the faith as a whole. There must be evidences for the historicity of the Christian faith or else people wouldn't have started following it 2000 years ago.

The thing I don't like about organized religion is the idea of someone else telling you what you are supposed to believe in. No one religion fits. I believe in an intelligent universe, but what is that exactly? Is the unified field God? What is God? Everything or nothing. Outside of us, or us?

The organized religions also seem to want us to believe that women are inherently evil. I find that insulting. According to some of the bible beliefs, I am already screwed, both being a woman, and having a father who was an atheist (sins of the father and all).

This story I find really disturbing:

"Genesis, the first book of the Bible, has Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God. "Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18) Abraham takes his own son up on a mountain and builds an altar upon which to burn him. He even lies to his son and has him help build the altar. Then Abraham ties his son to the altar and puts a knife to his throat. He then hears God tell him this was just a test of his faith. However, God still wanted to smell some burnt flesh so he tells Abraham to burn a ram."

What parent would do that? I for one, would never sacrifice my son, or even my pets. What kind of God would ask that of anyone, I say the dude above failed the test as a father. Why worship such a God?

Apparently the new testament cancels out the old testament, and it is a bunch of contradicting stories, written by man, and interpreted by man. Even the priests and archbishops that have molested all those children don't believe or how would they have done what they did?

I believe in Karma. And she can be nasty.

Nice thread Panda.
This subject has always intrigued me.
Unfortunatley, for the most part, the answers that are given in respect of religious revelation are often too vague to understand.
I want to hear from those who found religion, not those that were indoctrinated from birth.
Please be specific about your experience. If you had an NDE, what actually did you experience and how did you relate that to a particular religion?
Same question relating to hearing a voice. Whose voice? What did they say? and again how did you link that experience to a particular religion?

I do not understand the word "faith" and any explanation ever given has been at best confusing. I believe that word stems from the indoctrinated at birth people and I have no desire to hear from them because I believe they are only repeating and believing what they have been told to believe.

I grew up in a non religious household and have never experienced anything to even hint that any of the religions are true. So from my standpoint I am eager to hear from people who "found" religion later in life and what the causes were.

reply to post by snowspirit

The thing I don't like about organized religion is the idea of someone else telling you what you are supposed to believe in. No one religion fits. I believe in an intelligent universe, but what is that exactly? Is the unified field God? What is God? Everything or nothing. Outside of us, or us?

Not all "organized faiths" make their adherents believe the same things. Yes, there may be official things that a church believes for example, but I guarantee that if you were to go to my church, for example, on a Sunday and ask people what they believe, many people (including myself) would vary from what my church officially holds.

The organized religions also seem to want us to believe that women are inherently evil. I find that insulting. According to some of the bible beliefs, I am already screwed, both being a woman, and having a father who was an atheist (sins of the father and all).

I would be curious to see these parts of the Bible that you're referring to. I don't recall any part of the bible saying that only women are inherently bad and doomed. In fact, the Bible says that all of humanity is screwed because we all sin and have fallen short of God's glory. It doesn't matter who we are or where we come from.

The beliefs of our parents don't count for much biblically speaking either.

What parent would do that? I for one, would never sacrifice my son, or even my pets. What kind of God would ask that of anyone, I say the dude above failed the test as a father. Why worship such a God?

If you were to actually go through and read that story carefully, you would see that Abraham didn't expect Isaac to die. Genesis 22,5:

Then Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you."

You added something to the story as well. The story doesn't say that God wanted to still smell burnt flesh. Later, it does say that the burnt flesh of the Israelite sacrifices were "a pleasing aroma" but it would seem that what was pleasing was more the actual act of giving something up to the Lord, and not the sacrifice itself. (This is backed up by the Lord saying in the Psalms that he doesn't desire burnt offerings and sacrifices.)

Apparently the new testament cancels out the old testament,

Not really.

and it is a bunch of contradicting stories,

That's news to me. Have you read the Bible or are you just repeating what you heard someone say?

written by man,

Moved by the Holy Spirit.

and interpreted by man.

Who else would read and interpret them? Kangaroos?

Even the priests and archbishops that have molested all those children don't believe or how would they have done what they did?

That's bold to be judging someone's faith. How could they have done what they did though? The Roman church has an unbiblical practice of celibacy for it's clergy. That coupled with the fallen human nature adds up to not good.

Don't forget either that it's only a small portion of priests that committed offenses and that not all Christians are Catholic.

Also, to the agnostics, what makes you the way you are, why are you agnostic? Why so unsure?

So unsure? I'm just plain unpersuaded either way. I don't know whether the Lakers will win the 2011 NBA championship, either, but I don't feel so unsure about it.

I also don't know that all those who do believe in some god are necessarily sure about their belief. On the opposite side, if memory serves, even a movement atheist like Dawkins describes himself as less than sure about his belief that there is no god.

Anyway, agnosticism. The biggest factor for me is that I like the heuristic similar cases should be decided similarly.

When I was a kid, I noticed that the evidentiary foundation for the living religions I was familar with was the same as the evidentiary foundation for the dead religions nobody believed in. Old stories, for both.

I didn't see why someobody would believe that Jesus was a god, but that Zeus wasn't. I still can't.

I am older now, and I see that there's more to it than that. For example, I think I understand the concept of faith in its various aspects (gift of God, virtue, warrant for belief), but I remain unable to see how it is a reliable guide to truth.

I notice that in practice it leads different people to believe incompatible things, both of them citing their faith. That, of course, is evidence about the reliability of faith as a guide to truth. And it is not encouraging.

None of that, however, offers any support to the proposition that there is no god, IMO. So, I am not an atheist.

Originally posted by XxRagingxPandaxX
For example this question goes out to all Christians out there. What makes you believe in Christianity, there is absolutely no proof for it, if their was there would be no requirement for faith.

I am a Christian, in that I work to integrate the teachings Jesus provided. Having made this proclamation I will never be accepted by the Christian community because I question everything, including the word as it is written. I DO NOT believe in Christianity. Christianity is a system implemented to extend Rome’s empire another few centuries. Today this is the evangelical leaders doing the same thing.

I believe in the Christ that resides in each of us. Here is my logic trail: God is everything and everywhere. I am somewhere. Therefore God is in me and I in he. The collective fabric we are clothed in is God who spoke the world into existence. There is no doubt that Jesus Christ is the son of man. We are all created to push forward creation, we are antennas and choose whether or not to receive the instruction. We are also capable of reflecting the creator in this world.

Proof is experiential. You cannot simply make a believer of someone. Yesterday you posted an thread about meditation. As you meditate, you peel away the layers and filters that the mind applies to the world around you. There is a reason the pyramid is significant in esoteric teachings. You start from the base and progress upwards until the body is gone, the mind is gone and the spirit is returned to the collective source. The Tao states “All things end in the Tao as rivers flow into the sea.” This is the proof you cannot find in the material world. Mind, Body and Spirit are three dimensions that can be integrated or separated and they are the micro to the macro.

Originally posted by XxRagingxPandaxX
So my question is, what makes you believe? In god, in heaven, in an afterlife, when there is no proof for you to believe so.

How do you know what is right or wrong? I realize it is wrong to answer a question with a question but there are no words to answer this question. God is incomprehensible. As far as the afterlife, there is plenty of allegories, within doctrine, throughout history to stitch together a common understanding from all of humanity living before the flood. In scientific terms, energy cannot be destroyed. We are all energy vibrating at a frequency that allows us to be manifest in the material plane. Alledgedly a higher vibration will move you to the ether.

Have faith in God, not in man. A sampling of current events should easily validate my thinking on this one.

There is no way to explain everything in a single post so take this response with a grain of salt. I have no way to guess the reader’s level of understanding however I do believe the OP can get it just fine.







[edit on 20-7-2010 by zroth]

reply to post by octotom


The feeling of women being evil stems from years of a patriarchal society, much of it that used to be ruled from the church. Also many churches still do not let women be leaders. I feel the church has been misused by men wanting to control society. I guess it does depends on the church these days.

I have a bible, and have picked it up now and again, and read bits and pieces, although not in any order, so my knowledge of it is minimal, I will admit. Just what I have read doesn't seem to make sense, or feels wrong. For instance Genisis 19, the story of Lot and his daughters and the two angels, and the corrupt men of the corrupt city just feels so wrong.... 19:6..... I would love to hear this wasn't so, but there it is. Maybe I am not meant to read the bible if these stories are what I keep finding if I open at random. I would rather hear/read about the good stuff anyday.

I am glad to hear some churches are not pushing particular views, people need to believe what feels right to them. I also think if Jesus was alive today, there are things he would be horrified by, such as religious wars, killings in the name of God, Allah, or whoever.

I do believe in karma, you reap what you sow, and I feel that if I am a good person, if there is an afterlife, it will be good for me. I don't believe in the idea that if you aren't baptized, or don't believe a certain way, you will go to some sort of hell, or be non existant because of that, there are too many people that don't know, or question. If God is good and understanding, there will be allowances for that..

I feel spiritual, but not religious. Have too many problems with the bible as I see it, and with most churches. I guess I lean toward the mystical, mysterious beauty of the nature we are surrounded by, and the mystery of what comes after.