A question about the expanding universe

Hi all.
I've been here for a couple of years now, but this is my first thread.

I have tried to get the answer to this question from numerous places, but so far, no luck.
My question is.....

As the universe is expanding and accelerating, as it does so, is it not possible that the effect could be due to the gravitational pull of other universes outside our own?
As each body in our own universe moves further away from it's neighbours, their gravitational effect on each other would become weaker, and the expansion rate would increase due to the external pull of the other universes outside our own.

I know I can't be the only one who has pondered this simplistically obvious idea, but I can't find anything on the net apart from stuff about dark energy/matter (Which I understand to be a term for something unknown) and the like, which does little to enlighten my admittedly simple brain, whereas the above explanation does make sense to me.

If it's totally wrong, could someone please explain to me why, as it's been bugging me for years now, and it's only now that I've been able to pluck up the courage to put my question out there at the risk of looking extremely thick and stupid.

Thanks in advance for any words of enlightenment.

I do not think you or your question is thick or stupid.

I have hypothesised that statistically there must be multiple universes. I had not thought about the idea of other universes being the cause of expansion. As far as I have read there is no proven reason for the universe expanding.

I always think of the universe like a cell in a human body, one of billions, forming something as a collective grouped with other multi universe bubbles. In its self part of something bigger etc etc

No idea how far off base I am and in this case very unlikely to find out definitively in my life time.

Originally posted by Illegal Alien
As the universe is expanding and accelerating, as it does so, is it not possible that the effect could be due to the gravitational pull of other universes outside our own?

I think the argument against this is that the expansion of our universe is fairly uniform, meaning that if it was caused by other universes these would have to be very evenly distributed.

But the idea of a multiverse is fairly mainstream these days. Michio Kaku gives some good talks on the subject. Just Youtube his name.

There is also a phenomenon known as "dark flows" which are great movements of matter, which are believed to be caused by the gravitational pull of very large "structures" outside of our universe.

Hi, and thanks for the encouraging replies.
I have thought similar things too.
I see the multiverse as a kind of crazy foam in which all possible realities are played out to make the oneness of all that can be.
Which seems to tie in with most of the esoteric ideas which have developed over the ages within our own bubble of perception.
I've read about the dark flows quite recently, and they're really interesting, but I can only go so far with many of the theories which abound throughout the field of astrophysics before my brain goes into meltdown, but I enjoy trying anyway.
Thanks again for the responses.
A boggled mind is a happy one, at least in my world.

[edit on 19-7-2010 by Illegal Alien]

reply to post by Illegal Alien


It's a decent question, but one has to remember that other universes as well as a multiverse have not been proven at all and only exist mathematically. There is no proven framework for an expanding universe and no tangible evidence that the universe actually expands. Recent research is showing the whole redshift idea that indicates an expanding universe may be bunk and inaccurate along with recent measurements indicating a structure to the universe that can only exist if it's 150 billion years old.

We're still learning a lot about reality, hang on tight and enjoy the ride!

reply to post by sirnex


Wow! That's the first time I've read that about the uncertainty of the present theories.
I thought thay were pretty much written in stone by now.
I am enjoying the ride very much, but I sometimes find myself hanging on white knucked for dear life.
For me though, all the uncertainty and contradiction which seems so prevalent in these matters only releases me from fixed modes of thinking, and hopefully gives me a degree of flexibility of belief which may come in useful one day.

THanks for the reply.

reply to post by Illegal Alien

Wow! That's the first time I've read that about the uncertainty of the present theories.
I thought thay were pretty much written in stone by now.
I am enjoying the ride very much, but I sometimes find myself hanging on white knucked for dear life.
For me though, all the uncertainty and contradiction which seems so prevalent in these matters only releases me from fixed modes of thinking, and hopefully gives me a degree of flexibility of belief which may come in useful one day.

THanks for the reply.

Nothing in science is written in stone.



[edit on 19-7-2010 by sirnex]

reply to post by sirnex


Yes, he does say a lot of interesting things and puts them sufficiently into layman's terms for the average Joe to get a reasonable grasp of what he's on about, but I always have an unsettling suspicion about most of the mainstream stuff (Hence my presence on this site), but who am I to argue at the end of the day?
I have no relevant qualifications, apart from the fact that I have a curious mind and a pretty good imagination, but when all's said and done, I can only believe or disbelieve.
In that sense ignorance can be bliss in a weird and twisted kind of way.
It's a pity that profit seems to be a major motivating factor for a lot of people (Including myself to some degree), and there does seem to be a lot of 'fleshing out' in many areas of interest so I do end up re-reading a lot of stuff just to get a small detail not mentioned elsewhere.
Because of this, I should remember more, but I don't.
Oh well...........

reply to post by Illegal Alien


You're theory isn't totally wrong but it's getting into very complicated physics. Have you ever heard of M theory?

Originally posted by Illegal Alien
reply to post by sirnex

 

Yes, he does say a lot of interesting things and puts them sufficiently into layman's terms for the average Joe to get a reasonable grasp of what he's on about, but I always have an unsettling suspicion about most of the mainstream stuff (Hence my presence on this site), but who am I to argue at the end of the day?
I have no relevant qualifications, apart from the fact that I have a curious mind and a pretty good imagination, but when all's said and done, I can only believe or disbelieve.
In that sense ignorance can be bliss in a weird and twisted kind of way.
It's a pity that profit seems to be a major motivating factor for a lot of people (Including myself to some degree), and there does seem to be a lot of 'fleshing out' in many areas of interest so I do end up re-reading a lot of stuff just to get a small detail not mentioned elsewhere.
Because of this, I should remember more, but I don't.
Oh well...........

I'm not trying to argue against the information he puts forward, just the methodology of how he does it.

reply to post by Illegal Alien


Illegal Alien

"A question about the expanding universe

"Hi all.
I've been here for a couple of years now, but this is my first thread.

"I have tried to get the answer to this question from numerous places, but so far, no luck.

"My question is.....

"As the universe is expanding and accelerating, as it does so, is it not possible that the effect could be due to the gravitational pull of other universes outside our own? . . . ."


Response: It is not impossible that other systems can interfere with local evidence of expansion of the universe, but that is not the best reason the universe is expanding. Nor does what you call “black matter” or “black energy” have anything to do with the expansion mechanism of space.

I rely on the reports received from a revelatory contact commission which produced this report on space expansion some decades ago. In part it reads:

“The present relationship of your sun and its associated planets, while disclosing many relative and absolute motions in space, tends to convey the impression to astronomic observers that you are comparatively stationary in space, and that the surrounding starry clusters and streams are engaged in outward flight at ever-increasing velocities as your calculations proceed outward in space. But such is not the case. You fail to recognize the present outward and uniform expansion of the physical creations of all pervaded space (1). Your own local creation . . . participates in this movement of universal outward expansion. The entire seven super-universes (2) participate in the two-billion-year cycles of space respiration (3) along with the outer regions of the master universe. [Paper 12, Section 4 - The entire paper may be viewed at Paper 12

Vocabulary FYI:
1) Pervaded Space. Space that contains planets and other astronomical features as opposed to Unpervaded Space which envelopes pervaded space. If your hand were pervaded space and unpervaded space were an envelope, your hand when slipped into the envelope would be like pervaded space being encapsulated by unpervaded space. The universe is so designed.

2) Superuniverses. In the pervaded space plane there are seven gigantic star organizations containing untold billions of galaxies. All of the space plane we are part of exists in superuniverse number 7. The other six rotate with us around the hub from which both kinds of space emanate.

3) Space Respiration. The central hub of the universe re-circulates space. Pervaded space is pushed out from the hub, and returns to the central hub via unpervaded space. Space respiration has a positive and negative cycle lasting 2 billion of our years. We are presently experiencing the positive phase of expansion in mid-cycle - about 1 billion years from when it started. Space contraction will begin in a little over 1 billion years to begin the negative phase of space respiration.

So you may well see that your innocent question has a very ponderous answer, and there are yet other mechanisms unrevealed which affect how space appears to us from within our gigantic superuniverse. The short answer to your question is that space appears to expand everywhere because of the operation of space respiration.

Just so I do not create the impression that creation of space is limited to the seven superuniverses, I call your attention to another fact in revelatory report. Beyond the superuniverse level even further beyond the central hub of the core universe lies four more bands of space. Each one of the four bands is hundreds of times larger than the space band we occupy in the seven superuniverses. Each band rotates around the central hub alternating directions. Our band rotates counter-clockwise in relation to the core universe.

Nice theory, but I don't think it's right.
What objects in distant universes can put a gravitational effect on our universe? I think there is no such objects according to what we see in our universe.

To Nosred.

No, I don't think I've come across M theory so far, although I may have seen some reference to it at some point.
Thanks for the heads up, and I'll check it out.

To Sinex.

I don't think you're trying to argue against his points, but I was just giving my own approach to the general consesus, as these ideas change a lot due to new discoveries which change the general viewpoint.

To Aronolac.

That's a bit of a mind boggler, and a new one on me.
I have had a PDF of the Urantisa Book kicking around for some time now, but found it a bit daunting as it's so massive, and the ideas contained therein very different to what is generally accepted as scientific truth.
I first heard of it from a band I listen to called 'Spirit', who have influenced me in many ways due to their songs' lyrical content.
But I don't want to derail my own first thread here......
Thanks for the detailed response, and the link, I'll definitely check it out in more detail.

To Etherguide.

My(!?) idea is that the actual universes surrounding us have their own massive gravitational pull outwards in all directions thereby causing all component objects in our own universe to move further apart, weakening their own gravitational effect on each other, and thereby causing the expansion to accelerate.
I know that this has not been proven in any way, shape or form, but Hubble did detect previously unknown galaxies from focusing on that apparent empty area of space not too long ago, so I am toying with the idea that these universes are so far away, that they haven't been detected yet.
Like I said, this is a very simplistic theory, and I did half expect to be slated for my naivete, but everyone so far has been extremely helpful and given me loads to read, and think about.

Thanks everyone.

reply to post by Illegal Alien


M theory is a potential theory of everything and ties together the five superstring theories.

Imagine that our universe is a big bubble in an infinite sea of other bubbles all floating around in eleven dimensional space. Some of these bubbles are less than a millimeter away from ours, so close you could almost touch them.

Originally posted by Illegal Alien
To Nosred.


I know that this has not been proven in any way, shape or form, but Hubble did detect previously unknown galaxies from focusing on that apparent empty area of space not too long ago, so I am toying with the idea that these universes are so far away, that they haven't been detected yet.

Thanks everyone.

now you got me interested, and perhaps im fuzzy on the whole "universe" thing. but how exactly could you detect another universe? i can understand detecting galaxies within our universe, but an entirely new universe?

also, our universe has been expanding for roughly 15 billion years we think. we think this because the farthest things away from us that we can see are roughly 15 billion l.y. away. remember that when we look through a telescope we are not looking far away, rather light is coming to us from far way. so if some "universe" outside our own is pulling on it, how could we detect it if this other universe is greater than 15 billion l.y. away?

im not saying you are wrong, but rather at this point this conversation should be moved to hypothetical. because anything that exists outside our known universe is unknown. and talking about the unknowable is in itself a logical fallacy.

Originally posted by Illegal Alien
My(!?) idea is that the actual universes surrounding us have their own massive gravitational pull outwards in all directions thereby causing all component objects in our own universe to move further apart, weakening their own gravitational effect on each other, and thereby causing the expansion to accelerate.
I know that this has not been proven in any way, shape or form

I'd say there's pretty strong evidence to prove that theory partially true but mostly false.

Mr. Vertigo made the best reply in the whole thread. The "dark flow" he mentioned is the closest thing we have to proof of something beyond our ability to observe drawing matter toward it. Whether it is "outside our universe" or just "outside our observable universe", is debatable, since we really don't know how much of our universe is outside the observable universe.

New Proof Unknown "Structures" Tug at Our Universe
This is the new proof that proves your idea partially true.

"Dark flow" is no fluke, suggests a new study that strengthens the case for unknown, unseen "structures" lurking on the outskirts of creation.

And here's why it doesn't explain the relatively uniform expansion of the rest of the universe, it's highly directional:

"we clearly see the flow, we clearly see it pointing in the same direction,"

So why would there be just one directional flow, with the rest of the expansion relatively uniform? It's a rhetorical question, nobody knows the answer.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Again, there are disclosures indicating that the alluded to “UNKNOWN STRUCTURES” tugging at our universe indeed do exist. I would like to briefly quote the narrative from the revelatory report made decades ago where they discuss universe organization and, in this case, the master gravity structures in the central universe - the “hub” as I have called it in the post above.

Quote From Paper 14 Section 1

“On the outskirts of this vast central universe (1) [the “hub as I have called it- Aronolac], far out . . . there swirl an unbelievable number of enormous dark gravity bodies. These multitudinous dark masses are quite unlike other space bodies in many particulars; even in form they are very different. These dark gravity bodies neither reflect nor absorb light; they are non-reactive to physical-energy light, and they so completely encircle and enshroud . . .[the hub] to hide it from the view of even near-by inhabited universes of time and space.”

And this:

“The great belt of dark gravity bodies is divided into two equal elliptical circuits by a unique space intrusion. The inner belt revolves counterclockwise; the outer revolves clockwise. These alternate directions of motion, coupled with the extraordinary mass of the dark bodies, so effectively equalize the lines of . . . [central universe] gravity as to render the central universe a physically balanced and perfectly stabilized creation.

“The inner procession of dark gravity bodies is tubular in arrangement, consisting of three circular groupings. A cross section of this circuit would exhibit three concentric circles of about equal density. The outer circuit of dark gravity bodies is arranged perpendicularly, being ten thousand times higher than the inner circuit. The up-and-down diameter of the outer circuit is fifty thousand times that of the transverse diameter.

“The intervening space which exists between these two circuits of gravity bodies is unique in that nothing like it is to be found elsewhere in all the wide universe. This zone is characterized by enormous wave movements of an up-and-down nature and is permeated by tremendous energy activities of an unknown order.” See full context in Paper 14 top of page.

(1) Note: I have substituted the word (hub) for the actual name given to the central universe to maintain consistency with my earlier remarks. The central universe is the gravity control (among other kinds of control) for the time-space superuniverses which we live in. The revelators call it “Havona” because of its unusual material and spiritual nature. Linear gravity is not the master force of gravity at work; it is absolute gravity which even over-rides the natural operation of mass attractions in space.

Science has begun to notice that there are extraneous influences - that is; apparently the “outside” over-control of gravity lurking far beyond their ability to see or precisely identify what is going on. It really does take revelation to learn of these different controlling mechanisms since they are hidden from our telescopes and nearly impossible to intuitively identify very well.

Those in the readership who have an abiding interest in why and how the universe operates as it does should at least review the Papers on science and the universe in the referenced Paper above. It is fully understood by yours truly that the edge of knowledge sounds fantastic because it is glimpsed at such a great distance without the verification of scientific suspicions. But the truth about matter and gravity will sound quite strange to those who seek only surface explanations. But as our ability to see deeper into the universe, verification of what is reported in these papers will become evident.

#

Originally posted by Aronolac
It is fully understood by yours truly that the edge of knowledge sounds fantastic because it is glimpsed at such a great distance without the verification of scientific suspicions... But as our ability to see deeper into the universe, verification of what is reported in these papers will become evident.

In that case please get back to us when you have verification, as this is the science forum where things like observational evidence and verification are appreciated.

The information I posted about dark flow has been verified by scientific sources.

Your source looks like something better suited to the conspiracies in religion forum than the science forum. It has some basic scientific facts wrong, like the rotation period of Mercury for example (We have learned some things since 1955, would you agree?)

en.wikipedia.org...

The book repeats the idea prevalent at the time of its origin that one side of the planet Mercury always faces the sun due to tidal locking. In 1965, radio astronomers discovered that Mercury actually rotates fast enough for all sides to see exposure to the sun.

The universe is expanding from dark energy, which has opposite gravity. Because gravity is created through virtual particles and virtual particles are can only exist via phasing in and out of a different universe-bound dimension or another universe, your ideas hold some merit.

Also there's a video on this from the science channel. I'll post it if I can find it.

Hello again.

Thanks again for the insightful replies.
Sorry I'm so late in replying to your posts, but had to work and stuff.....

Nosred.

I did go and check out the M theory on Wikipedia, and I had heard of string theory before, but the terminology and mathematical references put me off a bit in the past, but I've since learned that repeated reading of a subject does help me to become more familiar, and general understanding is improving with each successive read, plus research further afield with regard to the unfamiliar terminology would do me no harm.
I did read years ago on the 'net about something called GUT (Grand unified theory), and TOE (Theory of everything), but it was quite complicated, although I did get the gist of some of it.

Monguzi.

Due to my lack of mathematical ability and theoretical understanding, I tend to approach these things form an 'as above so below' prespective.

As a lot of my thoughts and activities are based upon internal 'spiritual' approaches to things, I try to equate them to the outer physical world, so when I see another person for instance, I regard them as another universe outside of my own, each of which has it's own interests and perspectives, or laws of nature.
These include laws of attraction and repulsion among many other things, so although these other outer universes have not been detected on a macro level, my belif system allows me to play around with ideas and come to conclusions which I feel have some relevance to the general scheme of things.
So yes this is all hypothetical, but it's all I've got to go on at the moment so I have to make do with it for now, but the ideas presented in response to this thread have given me a great deal to ponder upon..

Hope that goes some way to clarifying my approach to this stuff.

Arbitrageur.

Interesting stuff that dark flow isn't it?

I have an idea which may go some way to explaining that.

Maybe these other universes aren't equally spaced in all directions after all, but some are dispersed in clusters, and others more far apart, like some of the stars and galaxies in our own universe.

If there was such a cluster relatively close to our universe, perhaps it has created a localised gravity field which is pulling more strongly from one area than the others, thus creating the dark flow phenomenon.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming to KNOW anything here, just trying to put my limited powers of logic to use, maybe putting two and two together and making five, I don't know, but I'm having fun trying.