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Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by JohnJasper
Bottom Line - Capitalism fails, has failed, must be replaced, cannot be fixed, should be done now while we still have some unpolluted earth and oceans to survive on.
Replaced with what?
the greatest and most progressive transformation of the form of man’s social organization in world history – the ending of society based on classes and, therefore, of the exploitation of human beings by other human beings." 1
...a social order in which so much is produced that every member of society will be in a position to exercise and develop all his powers and faculties in complete freedom. 2
...take the control of industry and of all branches of production out of the hands of mutually competing individuals, and instead institute a system in which all these branches of production are operated by society as a whole – that is, for the common account, according to a common plan, and with the participation of all members of society.
It will, in other words, abolish competition and replace it with association. 3
We didn't adopt capitalism. It was the natural progression from the feudal system
The name is not important. What is critical is:
- that all people become equal politically,
- that the monetary system dies and with it the sickness that it causes,
- that society is structured for the benefit of all people globally
- and that resources are managed globally for the good of all, not just for those who can afford it.
(and as a sweetener for the pro-gun folk, a basic tenent is the arming of the workers instead of having a standing army that does nothing else! This is critical because without it, the elite will quickly establish control again with their legions of paid mercenaries.)
1. Socialist Equality Party Statement of Principles, Pg 3 Para 1
2. Manifesto of the Communist Party, Draft of a Communist Confession of Faith, Frederick Engels, Pg 47 Para 4
3. Manifesto of the Communist Party, Draft of a Communist Confession of Faith, Frederick Engels, Pg 47 Para 10
4. The Historical and International Foundations of the Socialist Equality Party
[edit on 25-7-2010 by JohnJasper]
Originally posted by justwokeup
Why socialism fails - its taken to extremes and marred by government corruption, bloat, apathy and mismanagement.
Why capitalism fails - its taken to extremes and marred by the big fish buying power and eliminating competition while nobody notices.
Arguing over the pure ideal is pointless since human involvement pretty much precludes a pure ideal. Pick your poison.
Neither system can be applied universally and neither necessarily requires or generates political freedom. You can do as much damage forcing privatisation on something ill suited as you can nationalising other things.
voluntary worker associations cooperating together in a highly democratic system where all are encouraged to participate.
Originally posted by gncnew
If I'm better at making widgets than you, why should I receive equal compensation to you? Before long, wouldn't I start to lose the motivation to create those widgets better than you?
Socialism encourages everyone to come down to the lowest common denominator. But golly it sure is "fair".
Capitalism encourages excellence as an avenue to greater reward. It sure is NOT fair... just like life.
And Socialism does not exist (and has not existed) as an economic system outside of being installed by a government. So the two must co-exist.
Capitalism has existed since a guy farmed more than he could eat and the other guy didn't get enough crops. Boom, supply and demand.
Let's say that four of us live in a dessert. You all have a bottle of water each. I have 4 bottles. When your bottles run out, but I have bottles left over - why am I going to give you my water? Because I just love you guys that much? What about me, what happens when I run out? Now, lets say that you guys all have plenty of food, but I'm running out.
What we're really all upset about is that those who lack the drive, ambition, skills, or ability get left behind. Sorry, but just like the good looking guy gets the pretty girl - the best get the most out of Capitalism. Life is not fair.
No because it's not about you, it's about the collective. If you slow down then your pay check will go down, why would you do that?
Everyone works to their ability, if they don't then they will by encouraged to do so, people can still be fired, or penalized some way if they don't work to their best ability. When you are on a fixed hourly wage where is the motivation to work any harder than necessary to keep from being fired?
Wrong. Spain is the ONLY place true socialism, workers owning the means of production, that has existed in modern times. The workers collectivized industry and farms, whilst at the same time fighting Hitler and the fascists, and increased productivity by 20%. No where else has the means of production been owned and ran by the workers, anything else is not socialism.
Does Socialism Breed Lazineess?
Are Spaniards really overworked? According to data compiled by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), Spanish workers do indeed “work” more hours than many of their European counterparts. In 2007, an average Spanish worker worked 1,652 hours. This compares to 1,561 hours per French worker; 1,433 hours per German worker; and 1,794 hours per American worker. But what about labor productivity, which measures the amount (or value) of output generated per hour worked? According to the OECD, Spain has one of the lowest levels of labor productivity in Europe. An average Spanish worker generated US$39.4 in GDP per hour worked, compared with US$49.9 per French worker; US$47 per German worker; and US$50.4 per American worker.
Spain continued on the path of economic growth when the ruling party changed in 2004, maintaining robust GDP growth during the first term of prime minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, even though some fundamental problems in the Spanish economy were now becoming clearly evident. Among these, according to the Financial Times, was Spain's rapidly growing trade deficit, which had reached a staggering 10% of the country's GDP by the summer of 2008, the "loss of competitiveness against its main trading partners" and, also, as a part of the latter, an inflation rate which had been traditionally higher than the one of its European partners, back then especially affected by house price increases of 150% from 1998 and a growing family indebtedness (115%) chiefly related to the Spanish Real Estate boom and rocketing oil prices.
As for the employment, after having completed substantial improvements over the second half of the 1990s and during the 2000s which put a few regions on the brink of full employment, Spain suffered a severe setback in October 2008 when it saw its unemployment rate surging to 1996 levels. During the period October 2007-October 2008 Spain had its unemployment rate climbing 37%, exceeding by far the unemployment surge of past economic crises like 1993. In particular, during the month of October 2008, Spain suffered its worst unemployment rise ever recorded and, so far, the country is suffering Europe's biggest unemployment crisis. By July 2009, it had shed 1.2 million jobs in one year and was to have the same number of jobless as France and Italy combined. Spain's unemployment rate hit 17.4% at the end of March, with the jobless total having doubled over the previous 12 months, when two million people lost their jobs; with the oversized building and housing related industries contributing greatly to the rising unemployment numbers. In this same month, Spain for the first time in its history had over 4,000,000 people unemployed, an especially shocking figure even for a country which had become used to grim unemployment data. Although rapidly slowing, immigration continued throughout 2008 despite the escalating unemployment crisis, worsening the situation. In 2009 some established immigrants began to leave, although many that did continued to maintain homes in Spain due to poor conditions in their country of origin.
Originally posted by gncnew
reply to post by JohnJasper
The problem will always be with your ideals is that they rely on humans actually acting on behalf of the betterment of the whole.
We're not bees in the hive. We don't regularly sacrifice ourselves for others just because it's the right thing to do.
If I want to be an artist, but I suck... in the Socialist/Communist architecture what decides that I should not be an artist?
People are followers. We're pack animals by nature and need a "leader".
Socialism and Communism both represent an economic system wrapped inside of a governmental and societal model.
Economic systems are simply put - a means for a trading of goods and services. The only way to ensure fair distribution of those goods and services is to allow the eternal forces of supply and demand to dictate the value of them.
What about Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet? All of them came from meager beginnings as well.
His family was upper middle class; his father was a prominent lawyer, his mother served on the board of directors for First Interstate BancSystem and the United Way, and her father, J. W. Maxwell, was a national bank president.
How about me. I started in a broken home welfare apartment in Minn, and now I'm "upper middle class" with a college degree. How'd that happen in this "broken" system?
Originally posted by gncnew
This is just not true. Have you looked at a union factory lately? Unions are socialism, and that is the ONLY place where people on an hourly wage don't work to their ability because they know it will have no effect on their advancement.
People are lazy by nature, and if you have one person who can do the work of 2, you will have another person who will let them do it. Unless there is a motivator.
The motivator you're missing in the "hourly wage slavery" is the possibility of advancement and a raise. I just got one because my company values my services more than other people. I'm better at what I do than others here and thus when I show that ability - I get rewarded. THIS IS CAPITALISM. Supply and Demand. My company puts a higher premium on my services - thus I get paid more.
And how's that working for them?
So high unemployment, poor worker productivity, excessive time off, and now a new "syndrome" for those poor Spaniards having to return to work after their four weeks off....
Here is another question. If socialism works - why has China had to adopt a Capitalist model to achieve their unprecedented economic growth?
What does it mean to say that China is a socialist country? Is this some sort of “feel good about China” sort of thing? I’m not being facetious here. I hear this term “socialist” bandied about quite frequently and most of the time I have no idea what people are talking about. I don’t know why China is socialist, unless it is socialist because China’s political leaders call it socialist...
...The term certainly has nothing to do with the class processes that prevail or have prevailed in China. In the immediate past, China was dominated by class processes that were hardly “liberating” to workers. I would, in fact, argue that CPC policies have been quite reactionary, meaning that it has recreated class processes that are associated with pre-revolutionary Chinese society....
Originally posted by 547000
How would workers control the means of production? They would require setting up a bureaucracy to manage the means of production. This bureaucracy is the state. Socialism and communism both require a state, and not just any state--but a totalitarian state, managing resources and means of production. No one could produce anything except when the state approves it, since no one owns the means of production.
Saying that the previous failed administrations are not pure socialism/communism is silly. How would society as a whole manage things since some things belong to society and not individuals? They would require a strong state to do so. Pure Communism and Communism Lite (Socialism) can only work in a small system, like a family or a village. The government cannot step down, because the government is there to manage resources and/or production for society as a whole.
Originally posted by TeeZedem
Pure Communism is stateless and moneyless communism. Why have a bureaucracy to manage the means of production when computers can do it for you and much more efficiently? Apply the concepts of JIT (just in time) inventory management that we've built up for the capitalistic system and voila, a viable system to manage production levels for the general population.
Maybe the questions you need to be asking is why we need a state at all? Their is no reason why a resource based economy couldn't work on a large scale considering the advances we've made in technology, not to mention the exciting advances yet to come in the near future.
Originally posted by ben91069
Originally posted by Enf0rc3r
Difference here is that in real life u dont get a liberal professor failing you automatically. In real life, if u work hard, u will make money. Simple concept that has made America the power house it is today. The professor was a complete idiot, ad used a biased model of capitalism based on his political views to hammer home a point that some people aren't good enough in his world to succeed.
Sounds like you are about to graduate high school. There are millions of people in the United States that work hard and still do not have enough to adequately live on. There is a majority of working class who are getting poorer, a small minority who have nothing at all, and an even smaller minority who have more money than any single person could possibly know what to do with. Reality already speaks for itself that is exactly what Capitalism does. What world of fake imaginations do you live on?
[edit on 13-7-2010 by ben91069]
Originally posted by neo96
after reading through this thread i guess i never knew what a captialist was..
i work for my money
i save my money
i dont spend my money unless i absolutely have to
i dont spend money i dont have
i do invest the some of my money to make myself more money
past 35 years this is what i have been doing all under the assumption i was a captialist....
you all crushed my world cause now i dont know what i am now.
[edit on 8-8-2010 by neo96]