US rule could keep Iroquois from lacrosse tourney

US rule could keep Iroquois from lacrosse tourney

news.yahoo.com

"The U.S. government says it will only let players back into the country if they have U.S. passports, a team official said. The British government, meanwhile, won't give the players visas if they cannot guarantee they'll be allowed to go home, the official said."

(visit the link for the full news article)

Apparently the Iroquois have their own version of a passport but it is not good enough for the DHS. So instead of letting the one of the best Lacrosse teams in the world go participate in the World Championships with a waiver or letter of understanding, they will most likely sit out.

The team was offered US passports but they refused them as they felt it robbed them of their identity. I guess I cannot blame them but it sucks anyway.

One argument is take the stupid passports and go kick butt at the championship. I am sure there are those reading this who feel that way.

However, I can see the teams point of view. If the DHS was so incompetent or bigoted not to realize there exists Nations within the US which may be exceptions to the passport laws, then DHS needs to fix it.

It seems like another example of those in Washington unable to see the forest through the trees of their own self importance and arrogance.



news.yahoo.com (visit the link for the full news article)

Its a shame they wont be able to attend the tournement. Very commendable theyre standing up for their sovereingity .. Hope they win their case.

Wanted to bump this as it seems our UK government hasn't allowed the team to enter the country and wanted to take a member view on the passport. Do you believe they should be allowed to continue traveling on their Iroquois passports or surrender to an American one?

I think the UK should let them in. Too much red tape again me thinks.

BBC article

They should keep and travel on their own passports. After all theyve inhabited N. America much longer than america even existed. Its their right as a people to travel when and where they please without the idiotic u.s government forcing them to its misguided views. They are a Sovereign people NOT part of the riff-raff that was thrown out of every country in europe to form the u.s.. They should continue to tell the u.s to get stuffed along with keep their own passports. The uk should allow them entry on their own passports as well since it IS a VALID AND RECOGNISED PASSPORT. The uk is actually violating international law by failing to recognise their passports and not giving them visas to enter. Seems more and more common for western countries to pick and choose which international laws they want to follow ..

reply to post by LarryLove


I think their documentation should be valid. I think the DHS is just getting lazy or is full of themselves. Up until a few years ago Americans did not need passports to get back into their own country.

I understand times change but you would think common sense should prevail. Apparently not in Washington. I can understand England not wanting to step in the middle of the row.

reply to post by Expat888


I agree with the cherry picking of laws and regulations. The problem is the government writes so damn many, nobody can do anything without violating something. Time to back off already.

For those that didn't take the time to read the updated article. The U.S. did grant them permission to travel without a U.S. passport. But now the Limeys won't let them in without a U.S. or Canadian passport.

So now it's the U.K. that are being morons, not the U.S.

Why are they , its not a legal passport document , how easy would it be to get into the states with a non internationally recognised passport?
What did this team think would happen?Why not get this sorted out sooner ?

reply to post by minute2midnight


I have not read the update yet. Link?

If we thought needless bureaucratic red tape for one country is bad, try working with two countries.

I stand by my original post that the easy answer would have been to just take the US government passports and get on with it. I think these guys took the hard right over the easy wrong though. They stuck to their guns and stood on principle. I can respect that.

...or maybe they just didn't want to go

reply to post by gambon


The story is long run. They have used their Nation's passport for some time and it was OK. Now that is not the case. It comes down to them believing if they take the US passport, they lose their identity.

I guess I side with the Iroquois if for nothing more than telling the DHS to go pound sand. In the end, they are the ones who will not be able to play in the championship. Bureaucracy 1, Common Sense 0

As I understand it The 6 nations Iroquis are a sovreign nation.
GWB acknowledged that their constitution given to them by Deganawidah in the 1400s,( just so they would be able to stand up to the tyranny of the coming white man, how did he know?) was a major inspiration for the American constitution.

The US and Canadian governments would love to break them but they have a strong society and solid legal footing.
They have kicked butt before and don't like being pushed around.
The crown hates them because they won't be broken to the plow like the rank and file.

If they take a US passport they figure it will be used to set a precident that will lead to the dissolution of their status as independant.
They don't have to imagine what that leads to, they have seen it happen a thousand times to all the peoples around them.
Whitey included.

Their whole society was designed to stand up to outside tyranny and prevent it from taking over internally as well.
This is why they are still viable...in the face of impossible odds
They will not give this up.





[edit on 17-7-2010 by Danbones]

[edit on 17-7-2010 by Danbones]

reply to post by Danbones


I was not aware of that. It just makes me side with them even more now.

Originally posted by LarryLove
Wanted to bump this as it seems our UK government hasn't allowed the team to enter the country and wanted to take a member view on the passport. Do you believe they should be allowed to continue traveling on their Iroquois passports or surrender to an American one?

I think the UK should let them in. Too much red tape again me thinks.

BBC article

Let them in. Its their sport and their Country. They were granted sovereignty under Worcester vs. Georgia over a hundred years ago. Their passports are valid.

Go Iroquois !!

Originally posted by Expat888
The uk should allow them entry on their own passports as well since it IS a VALID AND RECOGNISED PASSPORT.

Erm, no it isn't. As far as the UK is concerned, these are Canadian and US citizens. There is no country called the Iroguios Confederacy that any country in the world recognises, hence we have no diplomatic relations, no treaties and therefore cannot recognise their passports.

Otherwise, any Tom, Dick and Harry can make up their own "country", get some dubious faux passport and enter countries willy nilly. Then, if they overstay their Visa or otherwise need removing, how do you know where to send them back? We already have enough illegals flooding these shores and destroying their passports so we're stuck with them, why do we need more?

FFS, these guys just need to get a passport for either the US or Canada and the jobs done. Either that or have their Iroquios people declare independance and form a proper country, not some pseudo-country that likes the benefits of being part of either the US or Canada when it suits them, but pretends to be independant at other times.

I suppose all you chaps would be happy if I flew into the US on a Cornish "passport", would you?

Originally posted by Expat888
The uk is actually violating international law by failing to recognise their passports and not giving them visas to enter.

Er, what? What "international Law" exactly? The UK (or any nation on earth for that matter) is not obliged to accept anyone from another state without a passport. Without a valid and recognised passport, there can be no Visa. No Visa, no entry.

reply to post by stumason


You make a good point. As an American from the area where the Iroquois come from, Maybe I feel a little more strongly than most on this issue. They are not making up a country. They were a nation, as they see it, before being conquered, like the word or not.

This was not all that long ago either in a historical sense. I am sure if we went back to a century or so after the Battle of Hastings, there surely were those who adamantly adhered to the notion, life and government were legitimate under Harold II. All this new garbage under the Normans is just trying to steal who we are as Britons.

My analogy may have a few holes in it but hopefully it helps refocus discussion on the point of their obstinacy.

reply to post by ABNARTY


Don't get me wrong, I understand their point of view totally, but that doesn't get round the cold, bare facts, which is that they currently have no nation and therefore cannot just issues themselves passports and expect to be allowed entry.

The irony is that people from the UK no longer have British passports, we have EU ones now saying we're EU citizens and look how we've been abosrbed by them.

I can definately see their point, so quite why they put up with being part of a country they don't feel attached to is mystifying. In today's world, there is sufficient precendent (set by the US mostly - more irony!) of small groups of people being allowed to get independance from the larger mother country, such as Kosovo, Bosnia, East Timor etc.

reply to post by stumason


Very true. If the US caved on the Iroquois, well, there are many Nations in the US who would expect the same. I agree with them but sadly I doubt their argument will go far.

As you mention, there are many groups around the world who feel they have a right to issue their own documentation. They probably have valid claims. Unfortunately a valid argument is not an effective tool against entrenched interests.

Perhaps if they just took the US passports and played in the tournament but spun their indigenous identity to the press, it may prove a more effective strategy to further their cause.

reply to post by ABNARTY


They have used the passport where ? not to the uk or eec have they ...it is not a legal passport , as it is not from a intrnationally recognised nation state...


"Either that or have their Iroquios people declare independance and form a proper country, not some pseudo-country that likes the benefits of being part of either the US or Canada when it suits them, but pretends to be independant at other times."

Exactly , I would also add , "When it suits the United States Government.."

[edit on 18-7-2010 by gambon]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by gambon]

reply to post by gambon


They have used their passports since 1923. The current one has been accepted for mover three decades. They have been accepted by numerous nations around the world. Since 9/11, that has changed.

en.wikipedia.org...
www.theglobeandmail.com...

To say that it is not from a recognized nation state is biased. The Iroquois have been around longer than the US or the EU. I agree declaring independence only when it serves you is weak. However, that is not at the heart of the issue.

I am not sure where this got derailed but it is a bureaucratic issue. Their passports were recognized and accepted regardless of what people thought of them. Now it is not good enough because the agencies put in place in various countries to supposedly protect the citizens, are incapable of procedure which instead of working with reality, freezes up when reality does not meet their procedure.

That does not speak well of their ability to protect anybody. As long as someone can flim-flam the procedure, the reality will fall through the cracks of the agency.

I do not think much of a US passport and I think it is garbage to get one so I can come back to the US.