Toddler Shot.... No Charges Being Filed !!!

The parents are responsible, yes, but to send them to jail and take away their older son would be wrong. Obviously they needed better gun safety education.

But really how would it be fair to the older boy to have his parents taken from him and probably put in our 'awesome' foster care system. The kid just killed his younger brother and will live with that for the rest of his life. No need to make things worse on him.

The parents just lost a son due to their complete irresponsibility. They have to live with that pain forever. I think Justice has already been served and will be for the remainder of their lives.

reply to post by semperfortis


The matter of my post was not of when to arrest them, but the matter of they should be charged with a crime for their negligence as gun owners and parents.

While I agree with you in the fact that there is a time and a place to formally charge someone due to the sensitive nature of the case, I don't agree with not charging the parents with anything.

The fact is they failed to be responsible with a firearm, fully knowing the danger it could pose if obtained by little hands, thus creating the events leading to their son's death. It's a terribly sad case that a family lost a son, but the same thing could have easily happened to anyone else due to the irresponsible storage and maintenance of the firearm on the parent's part.

reply to post by hawkiye


The best reason is so the other kid(s) don't get hurt or die from their negligence and lack of parenting. This is one good example of why parents should be trained and licensed.

reply to post by mistafaz


Do you have children? I myself do not, but as the oldest child in my family, I was often in charge of the littler ones.

Do you know how difficult it is to do everything right? 100% of the time? MOST of us alive today, are alive because of luck. Virtually ALL of our parents at one time or another, had a lapse of judgment, that COULD have ended our lives, and by the grace of God or Lady Luck, (depending on your belief) we did not die. I can think of several times in my own life that I could have died, in retrospect, as a child, and did not.

Those parents COULD have, for all we know from that article, have kept that gun under lock and key day and night and this is the one time they ever left it unlocked. You dont know. The article doesnt tell us what their habits were. The fact is, no matter how responsible you are, or how vigilant you are, there is always the possibility of something bad happening, and someone dying. We are spared hundreds of times by the time we are adults, often without ever realizing how close we just came to death.

I sincerely hope a momentary lapse of judgment on your part never comes with such a heavy price as that paid by those parents. But the next time you do look down while driving, and swerve a little, realize that you could have just negligently killed someone, or a whole family of someones, and maybe consider the role luck plays in whether or not you actually ever do. None of us are 100% responsible and aware. We all do stupid things. Most of us just get lucky and suffer no consequences for it.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


You are exactly right. Basically what I stated...kinda.

I think ATS should start a forum called "Jumping to Conclusions" and move this thread there.

I get a kick out of all you knuckleheads calling for arrest, prison, even death for these parents as though you were there and know every detail of the situation. You're getting your information from a news source, and you know damn well it is not complete information, yet you are willing to make snap judgments based on what is practically hearsay??

What is driving this judgmental behavior? Could it be your belief about guns and the right of people to keep and bear arms? A belief based on propaganda promoted for decades by the media?

Do you think any parents would want something like this to happen? This kind of thing happens, plain and simple. People are not robots. People make mistakes. Maybe someone had a lapse of memory and forgot to put the gun away, or whatever - you do NOT know.

I'm not defending these people, either. It is of paramount importance that guns be kept out of the reach of children. If they were drunk or high or something, then their actions or inaction had a very bad consequence, right? I don't know what really happened and neither do you.

I thought most of us on here were on the same page about the state being too powerful and too meddling in our private affairs. Now you want the state to get all high and mighty and toss these people in prison and fry them up nice and crispy because they made a mistake that led to the death of one of their children.

Grow the hell up and stop being judgmental. It's not your job.

Originally posted by hawkiye
So you keep all your butcher knives locked up and out of reach of your children I take it? The point is the parents were not there watching them play with guns as your false scenario tries to paint. And why should we appease your cry for vengeance instead of looking at what is best for the family in this situation? Again what purpose would it serve? You think they don't know now they just made the most tragic mistake of thier lives? They have already suffered the worst punishment they could.

And further thier neglect was not in not locking the gun up that is a false anti-gun lie that it is necassary to lock up your guns, their neglect is in not teaching thier 9 year old to shoot and what the awesome power of a gun can do. I was actively shooting by the time I was nine and had a healthy respect for what a gun could do. If this nine year old had been trained to shoot with gun safety he never would have been playing around with it like that. That's what happens when people buy into the anti-gun propaganda that your guns should always be locked up when not in use as if they are just adult sports toys and your children who are old enough should not know anything about them. Most people buy guns for self defense so lot of good they will do you locked up if some criminal confronts you in your home or otherwise.

Well actually yes, my butcher knifes are kept in a place that aren't accessible to my children. And they know the dangers of playing with knives. I've also educated my children about gun safety.

I can't fathom a circumstance where my children could run around the house with butcher knives and I not know about it. I also could not fathom a circumstance where my child managed to get ahold of my firearm. My children are not allowed in my bedroom where my guns are kept. Theres a wide range of reasons why my children are not allowed in my room.

I also do not keep my weapons loaded with one in the chamber. On my revolvers, I keep the next round to be fired empty, so in case of accidental discharge it is an empty round. I also keep the magazines removed from my firearms, it doesn't take but one second to pop the magazine in and engage the slide.

I'm not buying into "anti gun propaganda" that says you have to keep your guns locked up, I'm quoting the law that saws you have to keep your guns locked up. Agree, or disagree it is the law. We can't sit around all day breaking laws we don't agree with.

If you disagree with a law, take appropriate steps to voice your concerns and seek to have the law changed. I can't agree with breaking the law just because you don't agree with it.

Had this child went on a murdering rampage, or decided to shoot up his local school the outcry would be far different, atleast in my opinion.

I agree that futher information needs to be gleaned from this situation before making assumptions. We don't know if the parent went to the bathroom and in turn the child got access to the firearm, or if the parent was playing WoW and listening to lady gaga videos and was too busy to notice.

If the parents neglect allowed this to happen then they surely should be prosecuted appropriately. If it is a case of just a sad accidental random situation I'd hope the appropriate steps are taken also.

reply to post by elevatedone


I never believed in the idea of charging someone just for the sake of charging someone. The parents didn't shoot the kid, it's not their fault (well not directly) and there's no specific law they broke.. The kid himself is going to be traumatized for the rest of his life and will hardly even be able to function as a normal human being so I'd say that's punishment enough..

If the parents had taught their son gun safety, how to shoot it, reload it, aim it, hold it, safety procedures and so forth ... their family would never have been ripped apart in such a way.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Which the parents carry the responsibility for the death of their child, which occurred because of, even if it was that one million time they made the mistake, a dereliction in their duty to make positive that the loaded firearm was under constant supervision away from the children.

Regardless of being a terrible mistake it's still involuntary manslaughter due to their criminal negligence. This wasn't an incident where it was a kitchen knife or screwdriver or some other household item was used but a weapon which sole purpose is to kill or maim.

Tell me how no crime has been committed? I've given examples of why these people need to be held accountable to society for their failure to act in securing their firearm and all I've gotten has been "Oh No! It was a mistake, just leave them alone!"

Oh by the way, killing a person while driving even while having a "momentary lack of judgment" is still involuntary manslaughter because that lack of judgment IS criminal negligence in your driving abilities. If one can't be 100% alert while driving, then they shouldn't be driving because that makes the possibility of putting others and yourself in danger.

reply to post by mistafaz


Indeed, but accidents happen, that's simply the way of life, the course of nature. You are a reactionist.. something bad happens, you don't feel secure unless something is done to apprehend the one responsible or at the very least, indirectly responsible. Even though nothing is actually gained from said punishment, loosing a child is already the worst thing that could possibly happen to the family.. And yet, there are those who feel it can't be right until someone has suffered in a public manor, only then could a reactionist feel safe.

I too think we need more of the story. We do not know that these parents didn't keep the gun locked up in a safe or lock box, and the little boy knew which key to use to open it. How many of you come in and throw your keys on the table... just saying... there are many scenerios that could have played out here... I for one won't jump to judgemental conclusions...

reply to post by mistafaz

Tell me how no crime has been committed? I've given examples of why these people need to be held accountable to society for their failure to act in securing their firearm and all I've gotten has been "Oh No! It was a mistake, just leave them alone!

How has society been harmed? How is society in danger? They don't owe anything to society. Society is just a noun not a man or woman who has been harmed, it does not exist its fictional. These are real people with lreal lives who lost a loved one. Do you think these people will more likely be over zealous about firearms around thier children or careless now that the worst tragedy has happened? Society has nothing to do with it. They lost thier child the punishment is already built in whether they were negligent or not. No purpose is served in further punishment except to appease somes lust for vengeance.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by hawkiye]

Originally posted by mistafaz

Regardless of being a terrible mistake it's still involuntary manslaughter due to their criminal negligence. This wasn't an incident where it was a kitchen knife or screwdriver or some other household item was used but a weapon which sole purpose is to kill or maim.

We will just have to agree to disagree. I personally think you are panting for their prosecution because of your feelings about guns. Which is fine. It is your right to do so. I just think you are showing a stunning lack of humanity for someone who is so opposed to things that kill and maim. Which is my right.

If the parents had been horribly negligent, perhaps. No one wants to see children killed by guns under these circumstances, and one would assume that the investigating officers are no exception. I doubt that they would have let the issue go if the circumstances were so outrageous that charges were merited.

Certainly I do feel the gun should have been unloaded before being stored, and locking it in a gun safe would have been the wisest choice with children in the house. Clearly there was some bad judgment on the part of the gun owner. I just think that there is no punishment worse than having someone you love die because of your bad judgment. I dont think anything the law could do could trump that. Those parents and that 9 year old already have a life sentence. And, I think that the 9 year old, who will already have to deal with guilt, would only be traumatized more if one or both of his parents were charged and convicted with a crime that he will certainly blame himself for, likely for the rest of his life. I dont see any point in adding to the childs guilt, the parents guilt, or any of their grief.

But, you are entitled to feel however you want about it.

Originally posted by brutalsun

Originally posted by 1xion325alpha
Well when you look at America.... It is obvious that this kind of tragedy will unfold. With their gun rhetoric what else would you expect. It seems like you want a gun on every coffee table so no duh kids are going to shoot themselves every month.

You can't help the kids unless the parents are helped first.

(My point being what kind of screwed up person would leaved a loaded gun around a child, it is almost as if America lacks common sense - it is happening TOO OFTEN)

There is a gun in every household in Switzerland by law. You just seem intent on attacking America. Nice.

This is a case of irresponsible parent(s)
Amazingly enough, when Australia Banned guns, your homicide rates stayed steady, just the instruments of death changed.
www.aic.gov.au...

The event 'The Port Arthur Massacre' which comprised the justification for the gun ban, was almost certainly perpetrated by the CIA/Mossad and co.

People should check it out.

reply to post by Rockpuck


I'm not going to argue that accidents happen, but when the unlawful killing of a person occurs because of someone's criminal negligence, it's illegal and the parents should be held accountable for their son's death. Even if "indirectly responsible" they STILL carry some responsibility in the death. Tell me in the eyes of the law, why these people shouldn't be charged at least for involuntary manslaughter?

reply to post by Greenize


What more information does this story need?? Any situations short of another adult handing the children the loaded gun, it is still Criminal Negligence on the parent's part for allowing SOME way for the loaded gun to be accessed by a child. Be it in their lack of ability to safely store a firearm or in teaching gun safety to their children to not play with guns, it still shows a degree of criminal negligence on the parent's part at one point that allowed for the firearm to be obtained.

reply to post by hawkiye


Because the negligent manner, regardless of it being an accident, in which at that one time the loaded gun was left obtainable to the children, society suffered from an unlawful killing which could have been committed against any other person rather than a family member. The loss of their child is in no way punishment for the carelessness they committed that allowed that child to die. It is in NO way an appeasement of a lust for vengeance to see them charged in the wrongful death of their child committed because of their carelessness. It is to show that people need to be held accountable for the mistakes they make in the eyes of the law.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I'm not opposed to guns in the least bit! I'm of the opinion that everyone should have the biggest baddest gun they could want! But it doesn't mean that negligent gun-owning parents should get a pass for the death of their son solely for the fact that their son died. I am of the opinion that if you chose to own a firearm, like driving, you take the responsibility for always knowing everything about the security of that firearm because the nature of that tool is for only to kill or maim (which apparently I need to say I'm fine with or people get the wrong idea) ESPECIALLY if it's loaded.

I'm not calling for the immediate imprisonment or infliction of pain upon these people but they broke the law and should be charged accordingly. What ever happens at trial and sentencing is of no consequence to me because whatever the courts decide I'll accept. But the elements of a crime are there to allow for arrest.

reply to post by mistafaz

society suffered from an unlawful killing which could have been committed against any other person rather than a family member.

Society did not suffer anything there is no such man or women The only men and women who have suffered are the parents and now you want them to suffer more for no purpose.

Society is not a man or a woman it has no rights no feelings nothings it is just a fictional name, a noun. To say something suffered that doesn't exist except on paper is ludicrous. To impose some made up arbitrary punishment on a severely injured family is serves no purpose they are already suffering the severest consequence of their actions and this BS about society does nothing but add a sadistic element to the whole thing.

reply to post by hawkiye


While I stick to my guns in regards to it, even if I were to take the mentioning of society out of the question it wouldn't take the fact away that they broke the law with the unlawful killing of their son. Since the victim is deceased, the case is taken up by the State to ensure that those responsible for the unlawful death are charged with the appropriate crimes. To what extent as to sentencing and fees is up to the Court.

I can create a plausible scenario whereby it can be argued that the parents didn't even know there was a gun in the house. Yet here they are being sentenced to prison already by this audience.

Wait till all the facts are in, folks, please. Stop being so predictably knee-jerk.

The parents lost one child and the other has to grow up knowing he killed his sibling. I bet they're suffering enough right now.

It wasn't your kid so why do you care about seeing someone get punished? I suppose that's the same mentality of those who would take part in stoning a person.

[edit on 7/12/2010 by vinrock]

reply to post by vinrock


It's the fact that it's the unlawful death of the victim due to the criminal negligence of an individual. In this case the death of their son is the effect of the parent's negligence but shouldn't be the sentence for the transgression.

It wasn't your kid so why do you care about seeing someone get punished? I suppose that's the same mentality of those who would take part in stoning a person.

Because in a society where there are laws against the unlawful killing of a person due to the criminal negligence of an individual, whether accidental or not, which is manslaughter.
Now, I'm not calling for punishment of anyone. The fact you rush in to say that I'm of the mentality that would take part in the punishment before they've been investigated and tried shows that you're of the mentality that thinks anyone who calls for the investigation and trying of people who break the law only wants to act out some primal form of blood lust.

You can't base a criminal investigation on the perceived emotions of the suspects and that's what most people have been doing.